Would VVs' Animalize have been one of KISS' best selling albums?

Post by **douglasroads** » Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:59 am

If he’s not sharing it with anyone outside of a handful of nut jobs in a narrow dark rehearsal room then I’m saying, empirically, that he’s squandered what he had. The glee you evidently derive from witnising an elderly man literally playing with himself is puzzling to most people here.

Vincent is a fascinating case and I do have all of his recordings with both Kiss and the invasion. He’s great on them. Mad, but great. Fascinating because here we have a session musician with the demeanour of a startled muskrat. He somehow lucks into a rock band with an obsessive fan base. It all goes to his head and, very quickly, he blows it. Now? He’s the odd, bit part Star Trek actor that can still, just, do the convention rounds. He’s not Gene Roddenberry, he’s not Kirk. And if you’re a fanboy that convinces them self otherwise, If your access to and personal affinity with the guy drives you to rationalise a whole heap of none sense to claim that he is...

Then you’re just a bit of a silly sod really.

redinthesky · Post by **redinthesky** » Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:05 am

redfield wrote: ↑Sat Aug 24, 2019 5:54 am
redinthesky wrote: ↑Sat Aug 24, 2019 3:57 am
sneed78 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:09 pm
Rip Rokken wrote: ↑Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:22 pm
TheSphinx wrote: ↑Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:41 pm I was certainly joking about the HITS tour. It is a hilarious coincidence.

But it is true Slaughter was selling the merch I mentioned.
They love playing “Pin The Tail on VINNIE VINCENT” around here. It’s another symptom of VVDS. Have you heard of it?

Cmon Rip, I’m a fan of Vinnie and what he did with Kiss and his solo stuff just as much as the next guy, but you don’t constantly have to comment on every post hoping you won’t lose your good standing with VV himself... these aren’t threads discussing the merits of what Rip Rokken has or hasn’t done after all.

No offense, but I’m fairly sure V still likes you man...
Vinnie likes anyone who kisses his talentless ass, like Shit Rotten has been doing here non-stop to great hilarity.
Red, Youre free to sling all kinds of insults towards Vinnie if it makes you feel better but keep in mind, once you go overboard with edgy remarks ala 'talentless' , your entire point will be devaluated as some hyperbolic rant by most sane ppl around here

You have a point - I should have made clear that I think he's talentless today. There was once a time when Vinnie was indeed a great talent, but unfortunately he flushed it all away. Thanks for the heads-up.

Rip Rokken · Post by **Rip Rokken** » Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:06 am

You sound bitter that you aren’t able to hear it for yourself. Vinnie doesn’t owe you a performance. But you’re welcome to fly over and see one if you’re interested.

Post by **douglasroads** » Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:19 am

Sad.

Boring as an unaccompanied scribble through a borrowed Behringer. But mostly, sad.

Curveboy · Post by **Curveboy** » Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:31 am

Vinnie's Animalize would have been brilliant.

SIDE ONE
1. I’ve Had Enough (Into The Fire)
2. Back On The Streets (Vinnie vocals)
3. Heaven’s On Fire
4. Lonely Is The Hunter
5. Betrayed (Eric vocals)

SIDE TWO
1. Under The Gun
2. Thrills In The Night
3. While The City Sleeps
4. Animal (Paul vocals)
5. Twisted (Gene vocals)

Frehley's Vomit · Post by **Frehley's Vomit** » Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:35 am

Rip Rokken wrote: ↑Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:35 pm It would have been one of the greatest albums of all time.

Frehley's Vomit · Post by **Frehley's Vomit** » Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:37 am

TheSphinx wrote: ↑Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:00 pm
Tito wrote: ↑Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:06 am
TheSphinx wrote: ↑Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:52 am why do you think the HITS ALBUM/ TOUR had the EGYPTIAN THEME?
What point are you possibly trying to make with that? You do know Paul Stanley came up with the "Egyptian Wizard" character, right?

Is it a coincidence they went with the Egyptian theme and had Slaughter open for them? Think about it.
Maybe they were trying to subliminally use Vinnie and the great success he had to help them.

It is funny that on many nights Slaughter was selling close to what KISS were in merch. Those former VVI guys sure put alot of butts in seats on that tour. That's for sure.

FFS.

Rip Rokken · Post by **Rip Rokken** » Sat Aug 24, 2019 9:03 am

Frehley's Vomit wrote: ↑Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:37 am FFS.

I agree... F’n FULL SHREDD, baby!

schultzcore · Post by **schultzcore** » Sat Aug 24, 2019 3:47 pm

I've been wanting to make this exact post for some time now, just haven't got to it.

Yes! Animalize with Vinnie would have been killer and really made for a great heavy AF trilogy of KISS records, following COTN and Lick it Up. They needed his aggression/ attack which was severely lacking with MSJ's playing. In fact, although I feel like they should have found a way to keep VV in tow, I would have been OK with his departure if we only would have been gifted the high octane version of Animalize that never came to be. Two full lengths (LIU + Animalize) + his COTU contributions would feel more complete to me.

They probably wouldn't have needed Child with VV still in the fold, but for the sake of this thread:

1.) Animal
2.) Heavens on Fire
3.) Burn Bitch Burn
4.) Twisted
5.) Back on the Streets

6.) Shoot U Full of Love
7.) While the City Sleeps
8.) Thrills in the Night
9.) I've Had Enough (Into the Fire)
10.) Boyz Are Gonna Rock

Didn't Vinnie come up with the album title (or a version of it)? I vaguely remember reading that once.

Red_Walrus · Post by **Red_Walrus** » Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:20 pm

schultzcore wrote: ↑Sat Aug 24, 2019 3:47 pm 1.) Animal
2.) Heavens on Fire
3.) Burn Bitch Burn
4.) Twisted
5.) Back on the Streets

6.) Shoot U Full of Love
7.) While the City Sleeps
8.) Thrills in the Night
9.) I've Had Enough (Into the Fire)
10.) Boyz Are Gonna Rock

Didn't Vinnie come up with the album title (or a version of it)? I vaguely remember reading that once.

curveboy

SIDE ONE
1. I’ve Had Enough (Into The Fire)
2. Back On The Streets (Vinnie vocals)
3. Heaven’s On Fire
4. Lonely Is The Hunter
5. Betrayed (Eric vocals)

SIDE TWO
1. Under The Gun
2. Thrills In The Night
3. While The City Sleeps
4. Animal (Paul vocals)
5. Twisted (Gene vocals)

Thx for the feedback, Betrayed with Eric singing is interesting.

Here's mine:

1.) Animal (Gene)
2.) Heaven's On Fire (Paul)
3.) Boyz Are Gonna Rock (Paul)
4.) Back On The Streets (Vinnie)
5.) Burn Bitch Burn (Gene)

6.) I’ve Had Enough (Into the Fire) (Paul)
7.) I Wanna Be Your Victim (Paul)
8.) Thrills in the Night (Paul)
9.) Baby-O (Eric)
10.) Twisted (Gene)

LordThurisaz · Post by **LordThurisaz** » Mon Sep 02, 2019 12:59 pm

TheSphinx wrote: ↑Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:00 pm Is it a coincidence they went with the Egyptian theme and had Slaughter open for them? Think about it.
Maybe they were trying to subliminally use Vinnie and the great success he had to help them.

It is funny that on many nights Slaughter was selling close to what KISS were in merch. Those former VVI guys sure put alot of butts in seats on that tour. That's for sure.

The only possible "conspiracy theory" here, Alex Jones, is that they might be mocking Vinnie for his financial and band issues with The Street Giveth...

EggFlip · Post by **EggFlip** » Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:01 pm

No doubt a better album. Paul singing invasion would be interesting.
Roberts voice as good as it was was not radio friendly and I fell the vvi songs would have done better radio wise with kiss.

As for hits tour both winger and slaughter were getting mote MTV play than kiss but hide your heart and forever were doing well. The kind of people buying hide your heart and forever were not kiss fans in general they were flighty top 40 fans. I was shocked at how many people didn't know many of the old kiss tunes played live on that tour. I think it has similarities to dynasty other than the new audience was a bit older.

EggFlip · Post by **EggFlip** » Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:03 pm

Coincidentally kip winger and I guess the keyboard player from winger were on tour with Vinnie and two slaughter members on Alice Cooper's constrictor tour so guessing they all knew each other pretty well.

Rip Rokken · Post by **Rip Rokken** » Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:05 pm

EggFlip wrote: ↑Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:03 pm Coincidentally kip winger and I guess the keyboard player from winger were on tour with Vinnie and two slaughter members on Alice Cooper's constrictor tour so guessing they all knew each other pretty well.

KB player for Winger = Paul Taylor. Excellent, multitalented musician.

Frehley's Vomit · Post by **Frehley's Vomit** » Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:36 am

TheSphinx wrote: ↑Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:00 pmIs it a coincidence they went with the Egyptian theme and had Slaughter open for them? Think about it.
Maybe they were trying to subliminally use Vinnie and the great success he had to help them.

Post by **TheSphinx** » Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:39 am

If only those songs Vinnie was working with had not turned out so well.... who knows what would have happened.

I still love Gene and Paul lying out of their butts and acting like Vinnie was fired after the end of the LICK IT UP tour.

Funny how Gene was calling Vinnie almost everyday while Vinnie was in the studio. Even Hirsch pointed that fact out. Gene is begging Vinnie to come back. And of course with Gene having movie projects etc on tap and no songs at all ready for the next album..... it was fitting.

It's funny how Gene never gets asked that in interviews etc.

Doose · Post by **Doose** » Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:42 am

Vinnie Vincent put out HIS version of "Animalize" - it was the first VVI album. He had full control.

Was it a best-selling album?

I guess we can put an end to any notion that it would have been one of KISS' best selling albums too then.

Post by **TheSphinx** » Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:49 am

Doose wrote: ↑Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:42 am I guess we can put an end to any notion that it would have been one of KISS' best selling albums too then.

Although Vinnie's solo album was the fastest selling debut in the history of Chrysalis Records (up to that point) and was around 500K in sales when ASG came out (which is impressive considering only 1 video.... because George Sewitt lied to the label).... that has nothing to do with how great it would have done as a KISS album.

The momentum was on KISS' side. That would have been the knockout punch they needed. Three strong, great albums in a row.

There was a reason GENE was calling Vinnie daily trying to get him to come back. Gene at least was smart enough to know how bad they needed Vinnie. Hell, it was Gene who was smart enough to get Vinnie back for Revenge after they had 4 mediocre albums in a row.

Only 1 song from Animalize was even played at least 1/2 of the tour dates on the Asylum tour. ONLY 1 SONG. That shows you how little they thought of "Animalize".

Animalize could have easily been a triple or quadruple platinum album with the songs & direction Vinnie would have brought with it.

Doose · Post by **Doose** » Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:51 am

But the bottom line is: Vinnie never had a best-selling album (even when he put out the songs he wanted, and how he wanted), he's never had a hit song, and he's never made a living as a songwriter. I don't think he even owns his own publishing these days.

Tito · Post by **Tito** » Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:16 pm

TheSphinx wrote: ↑Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:49 am There was a reason GENE was calling Vinnie daily trying to get him to come back.

Man, this shit's too funny.

I bet all the magazines were talking about Gene calling Vinnie daily too.

Post by **TheSphinx** » Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:18 pm

Tito wrote: ↑Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:16 pm
TheSphinx wrote: ↑Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:49 am There was a reason GENE was calling Vinnie daily trying to get him to come back.
Man, this shit's too funny. I bet all the magazines were talking about Gene calling Vinnie daily too.

No, but Hirsch Gardner certainly confirmed it for all the unbelievers

LordThurisaz · Post by **LordThurisaz** » Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:45 pm

Tito wrote: ↑Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:16 pm
TheSphinx wrote: ↑Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:49 am There was a reason GENE was calling Vinnie daily trying to get him to come back.
Man, this shit's too funny. I bet all the magazines were talking about Gene calling Vinnie daily too.

Yup. "Vinnie, can you please come back? Our last album was full of filler... can we get more of that, please?" Give me a break.

Post by **TheSphinx** » Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:00 am

LordThurisaz wrote: ↑Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:45 pm
Tito wrote: ↑Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:16 pm
TheSphinx wrote: ↑Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:49 am There was a reason GENE was calling Vinnie daily trying to get him to come back.
Man, this shit's too funny. I bet all the magazines were talking about Gene calling Vinnie daily too.
Yup. "Vinnie, can you please come back? Our last album was full of filler... can we get more of that, please?" Give me a break.

Filler? If they were allegedly filler then why were so many released as videos and played live?

You can bet if they had used Vinnie's songs for Animalize... KISS wouldn't have only been doing 1 SINGLE SONG from Animalize on the next tour. Only one stinking song off Animalize was played at least 45% of the Asylum tour dates. Animalize was FULL OF FILLER.

Asylum was even worse filler.

gabbagabba · Post by **gabbagabba** » Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:11 am

TheSphinx wrote: ↑Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:49 am
Animalize could have easily been a triple or quadruple platinum album with the songs & direction Vinnie would have brought with it.

Yes, that's for sure.
I loved Vinnie's work with the Beatles "White Album" and don't foget Vinnie's songs on "Nevermind" by Nirvana.
It's a shame that Vinnie did so many great things for others (just think about Queen's "Bohemian Rapsody") and then NO solo career after 1989.

acevog75 · Post by **acevog75** » Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:50 am

If the songs turned out like they did on VVI, no way.....If they went through the process that Vinnie’s ideas went through on Lick It Up, then it had the potential to be a good selling album. As it stands, it sold as well as a KISS album would sell in the 80’s regardless. I highly doubt they had any chance of doing Bon Jovi or Def Leppard numbers. Not with those songs or whatever would have become of the songs that Vinnie was planning on bringing to them for Animalize.

J-Lefty · Post by **J-Lefty** » Tue Sep 17, 2019 8:10 am

Animalize would have done better if it was produced by Michael J Jackson

LordThurisaz · Post by **LordThurisaz** » Tue Sep 17, 2019 9:32 am

A band... playing new songs off an album... live? It's almost as if they are trying to push the album sales or something. Weird, that.

Doesn't prove they aren't filler.

acevog75 · Post by **acevog75** » Tue Sep 17, 2019 9:45 am

J-Lefty wrote: ↑Tue Sep 17, 2019 8:10 am Animalize would have done better if it was produced by Michael J Jackson

Perhaps, but he would have to tell Gene to write new songs or work a little harder on the ones he brought. As far as production goes, I think the basic tracks and vocals are perfectly fine as far as sound and performance goes. I think the solos were a little strange sounding and not very memorable, but maybe that was a style choice on Paul’s part to keep up with the shredders. It sounds like a lot of the solos were doubled, but it’s almost as if one of the tracks was racing to keep up with the other track. Almost like the way Tony Iommi would double his solos, but they were never quite the same with each other. It worked for him because he wasn’t trying to crank out a million notes. Maybe as a producer MJJ would have taken a different approach to make them more tuneful? I think Bruce shredded on Asylum but it was tasteful and tuneful for the most part. But I think if MJJ was a producer in the way that Eddie Kramer was for KISS, which was more of an engineer and not a song arranger, than I believe it would’ve had no bearing on sales at all.

Post by **TheSphinx** » Tue Sep 17, 2019 9:53 am

J-Lefty wrote: ↑Tue Sep 17, 2019 8:10 am Animalize would have done better if it was produced by Michael J Jackson

Maybe. But he did produce the album "Killers" and you could have easily called those 4 new tracks that were supposed to be used on COTN.. "FILLERS".

acevog75 · Post by **acevog75** » Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:04 am

TheSphinx wrote: ↑Tue Sep 17, 2019 9:53 am
J-Lefty wrote: ↑Tue Sep 17, 2019 8:10 am Animalize would have done better if it was produced by Michael J Jackson
Maybe. But he did produce the album "Killers" and you could have easily called those 4 new tracks that were supposed to be used on COTN.. "FILLERS".

Nowhere To Run is solid. I think the rest range from ok to some of the worst they’ve ever done up to that point. Down On Your Knees is just a terrible song. KISS at their most generic up to that point. That said, at least they were trying to get back on track, they had to start somewhere I guess. The fact that DOYK made it onto that compilation KISS40 shows how clueless the record company could be at times. Terrible choice

Tito · Post by **Tito** » Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:24 am

I love "Partners In Crime", always have.

UltraCynic · Post by **UltraCynic** » Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:33 pm

I could not BELIEVE how average the songs on Killers were, which made the jump in quality on COTN even more noticeable.

The only thing of note on those 4 songs was Bob Kulick’s lead guitar work. Salute!

gabbagabba · Post by **gabbagabba** » Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:43 pm

I really love "I'm a Legend Tonight" and "Nowhere to Run", two great songs.
They certainly weren't fillers.

ville77 · Post by **ville77** » Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:01 am

I would be interested to know that what songs Gene and Paul had written for Animalize when Vinnie Vincent left the band (or got fired..).

Most of the Gene songs on Animalize were pretty much fillers, like "Lonely is the hunter". That song is basically a one riff song.
Were Gene and Paul "forced" to record those Gene songs because they cound't use the songs Vinnie wrote for Kiss?
Maybe they were running out of time and the record had to be ready??

ObiWanFrehley · Post by **ObiWanFrehley** » Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:20 am

TheSphinx wrote: ↑Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:41 pm I was certainly joking about the HITS tour. It is a hilarious coincidence.

But it is true Slaughter was selling the merch I mentioned.

Slaughter was big with the chicks back then, I am sure that Slaughter helped bring in some people for the KISS shows. The single Forever is what made the HITS tour possible, I don't think KISS was even going to tour for that album initially, but scoring a hit made it possible. The Rise to It video generated some buzz too for obvious reasons. KISS playing the vintage stuff brought in a few more people who had grown weary of the absence of classic KISS songs from the previous tours.

The HITS shows I attended (2 shows) were some of the best KISS shows I have been to.

Post by **TheSphinx** » Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:50 am

UltraCynic wrote: ↑Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:33 pm I could not BELIEVE how average the songs on Killers were, which made the jump in quality on COTN even more noticeable.

The only thing of note on those 4 songs was Bob Kulick’s lead guitar work. Salute!

Amen! It was NIGHT AND DAY DIFFERENCE.... that and the tone/feeling of the album. What was the ONE THING that was different between the recording of Killers tracks and COTN tracks? hmmmmm Let me see....

Doose · Post by **Doose** » Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:30 am

I guess Animalize would have sold MILLIONS with Vinnie's compositions.

Just like the two VVI albums did?

LordThurisaz · Post by **LordThurisaz** » Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:50 am

Doose wrote: ↑Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:30 am I guess Animalize would have sold MILLIONS with Vinnie's compositions.

Just like the two VVI albums did?

They were YUUUUGE...

Post by **TheSphinx** » Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:38 am

Doose wrote: ↑Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:30 am I guess Animalize would have sold MILLIONS with Vinnie's compositions.

Yes, easily 3-4M. Kiss had the great momentum going for them. But the fact that Animalize didn't deliver much more than one song... meant that momentum fell big time.

Anomaly · Post by **Anomaly** » Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:12 am

Jesus Christ.

Post by **PterCriss** » Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:38 am

the King.

Post by **TheSphinx** » Sat Sep 21, 2019 11:28 am

ville77 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:01 am I would be interested to know that what songs Gene and Paul had written for Animalize when Vinnie Vincent left the band (or got fired..).

Most of the Gene songs on Animalize were pretty much fillers, like "Lonely is the hunter". That song is basically a one riff song.
Were Gene and Paul "forced" to record those Gene songs because they cound't use the songs Vinnie wrote for Kiss?
Maybe they were running out of time and the record had to be ready??

Vinnie wasn't officially "gone" till around June 17th, 1984.

Did anyone ever ask Paul how they came up with the name Animalize? I do wonder how Kiss would have sounded singing "Animal".