1975-06-13 - Tulsa, OK (SBD)

Discussions that become topics about specific master recordings...
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1975-06-13 - Tulsa, OK (SBD)

Post by DaveinSpain »

I'm going to preface this by saying Kiss doesn't exist for me after 1981. I do not like 80's hair metal even a little. I'm not a fan of Creatures. Also I detest the 90's stuff & the new Kiss like Monster. It's just not the type of music I am into. I'm more of a Punk & Hardcore music guy,but 70's Kiss is how my life started and will always be most important to me. I'm certainly not insulting anyone who likes 80's Kiss or the new stuff I'm just saying this is my personal taste. I absolutely love everything up to & including Unmasked & The Elder.
My question is besides...

Winterland 1975
Detroit Jan 76
Largo or Houston 77
Auckland or any Aussie show from 80

Are there any other must have shows? I absolutely love the raw live sounds of those shows. I love the setlist of each but pretty much every show from those tours are the same 15 songs & I do not need 6 different shows from the same tour with the same songs . I prefer those shows to Alive & Alive II strictly because these feel raw and real. I know a lot of people talk about the Budokon shows but aren't they pretty much the same as Largo & Houston? Is the sound that much better? Is there a different setlist? Is there a show on the Destroyer tour that sounds good that mixes some of the Alive songs with some newer ones? Is there a Dynasty tour show that sounds good? I've heard Peter was terrible on that tour and I'm unfamiliar with any shows from it so I figured I'd come here and ask you guys if there are some must see or hear shows from the early days besides those I mentioned. Anyway thanks for the input.
Last edited by DaveinSpain on Sat Feb 06, 2021 1:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Must have live shows

Post by L1 »

There are a few, but the absolute No.1 for me has always been Tokyo 77.
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Re: Must have live shows

Post by DaveinSpain »

L1 wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 1:35 am There are a few, but the absolute No.1 for me has always been Tokyo 77.
Thanks...I know I've watched a clip or 2 on YouTube but perhaps I need to give it another look.
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Re: Must have live shows

Post by alivecatman »

I would add Anahiem 76
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Re: Must have live shows

Post by Looking Out »

You'd wish there was a must have Elder show.
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Re: Must have live shows

Post by turbodrive »

Definitely Tokyo '77 for me.
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Re: Must have live shows

Post by doombies »

Any footage of any of the five Tokyo 78 shows.
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Re: Must have live shows

Post by KissJJM »

There are ppl who claim Tokyo 78 exists LOL!
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Re: Must have live shows

Post by johnkissfan1974 »

IMO as far as audio the BEST sounding are: King Buscuit ‘75 and the newest Tokyo ‘77 (with the oxidation noise removed). There are many versions of the KB ‘75 show however there is one that is absolute mint sound quality and the mix is incredible. The Tokyo ‘77 was recently done and as far as I know I am one of 3 people that has it. Grant it, these are not the full shows, but they are highest quality currently out there.
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Re: Must have live shows

Post by Jamcarl321 »

Agora live in Cleveland April 1974
I also like the Wash DC 74 show!
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Re: Must have live shows

Post by johnkissfan1974 »

Jamcarl321 wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 6:00 pm Agora live in Cleveland April 1974
I also like the Wash DC 74 show!
I wish the Cleveland 74 show contained the crowd noise/Paul banter in between the songs
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Re: Must have live shows

Post by k1ssarmy »

Hammond 74 is great!
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Re: Must have live shows

Post by k1ssarmy »

East Lansing 74 too. Great soundboards.
Midnight Special is is raw KISS as well!
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Re: Must have live shows

Post by KissJJM »

All those 74 shows are incredible. Amazing that so many exist. We're lucky someone in the audience took the chance on bootlegging a new no name band at the time.
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Re: Must have live shows

Post by Jamcarl321 »

And that recently discovered Toronto 74 show!
You can hear a young hungry band trying to build a fan base, one club ata a time, love ‘em all! And those Sean Delaney intros, “..put your two lips together....” 🤘
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Re: Must have live shows

Post by DaveinSpain »

Thanks to all of you for your input. I'll definitely have to check them out.
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Re: Must have live shows

Post by Eddie Van Hazel »

Detroit 77 at Cobo Hall. That's one of my favorites.
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Re: Must have live shows

Post by Julien »

johnkissfan1974 wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 2:43 pm IMO as far as audio the BEST sounding are: King Buscuit ‘75 and the newest Tokyo ‘77 (with the oxidation noise removed). There are many versions of the KB ‘75 show however there is one that is absolute mint sound quality and the mix is incredible. The Tokyo ‘77 was recently done and as far as I know I am one of 3 people that has it. Grant it, these are not the full shows, but they are highest quality currently out there.
Taking a reel into the studio usually provides great results. That's what I did for a pre-FM KB75 reel and others...
image.png
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Re: Must have live shows

Post by Grizzly Adams »

DaveinSpain wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 1:17 am Is there a Dynasty tour show that sounds good? I've heard Peter was terrible on that tour and I'm unfamiliar with any shows from it so I figured I'd come here and ask you guys if there are some must see or hear shows from the early days besides those I mentioned. Anyway thanks for the input.
I always liked Largo ‘79 because the setlist is different, most notably each member does one song from their solo album.
It’s a pro shot concert, too.
I couldn’t find full concert on YouTube, but there are plenty of individual clips.
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Re: Must have live shows

Post by torgotheme »

As far as non-makeup goes, I used to have The Ritz '88 radio broadcast on cassette from Mr. Arquette. I played the heck out of it. Seemed to be the precursor to the HITS-era setlist.
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Re: Must have live shows

Post by johnkissfan1974 »

Admin wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 4:43 pm
johnkissfan1974 wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 2:43 pm IMO as far as audio the BEST sounding are: King Buscuit ‘75 and the newest Tokyo ‘77 (with the oxidation noise removed). There are many versions of the KB ‘75 show however there is one that is absolute mint sound quality and the mix is incredible. The Tokyo ‘77 was recently done and as far as I know I am one of 3 people that has it. Grant it, these are not the full shows, but they are highest quality currently out there.
Taking a reel into the studio usually provides great results. That's what I did for a pre-FM KB75 reel and others...

image.png

image.png

image.png

image.png
Awesome! From the person I got my copy of the KB ‘75 files I wonder if they are the same quality as the one from your pic. I know who my friend got their copy from (not you but that person is also very involved with the Kiss organization) ;)

Tulsa I do not have but do know of two people (now) that have it ;)
Thank you for showing those pics tho. I am so fascinated by what is out there in terms of demo/live material, esp 70’s-80’s era and in excellent sound quality (again I like excellent quality stuff). I could talk about this stuff for hours and have done so with Robert Conte and - to a certain degree - with one of the members on this board. I have a true passion for discussing and obtaining material that is in the Kiss vault.
Last edited by johnkissfan1974 on Sun Feb 07, 2021 5:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Must have live shows

Post by johnkissfan1974 »

torgotheme wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 5:09 pm As far as non-makeup goes, I used to have The Ritz '88 radio broadcast on cassette from Mr. Arquette. I played the heck out of it. Seemed to be the precursor to the HITS-era setlist.
I wish that show was an official release with a new mix straight from the soundboard. All copies I have heard were recorded off the radio.
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Re: Must have live shows

Post by Julien »

johnkissfan1974 wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 5:25 pm Tulsa I do not have but do know of two people (now) that have it ;)
Tulsa is interesting. It was originally recorded to cassette apparently. The copy that circulated for a few years was a shitty MP3. The copy I got transferred was on a reel. How it got from cassette > reel is another matter, for which I don't have the answer. It's out there so everyone has "it," though not necessarily the lossless transfer (which also ended up out there).
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Re: Must have live shows

Post by KissJJM »

Tulsa 75?
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Re: Must have live shows

Post by johnkissfan1974 »

Admin wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 5:55 pm
johnkissfan1974 wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 5:25 pm Tulsa I do not have but do know of two people (now) that have it ;)
Tulsa is interesting. It was originally recorded to cassette apparently. The copy that circulated for a few years was a shitty MP3. The copy I got transferred was on a reel. How it got from cassette > reel is another matter, for which I don't have the answer. It's out there so everyone has "it," though not necessarily the lossless transfer (which also ended up out there).
LOL. Is yours 5-6 songs as well or is it a full show if I may ask?
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Re: Must have live shows

Post by DaveinSpain »

Grizzly Adams wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 5:02 pm
DaveinSpain wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 1:17 am Is there a Dynasty tour show that sounds good? I've heard Peter was terrible on that tour and I'm unfamiliar with any shows from it so I figured I'd come here and ask you guys if there are some must see or hear shows from the early days besides those I mentioned. Anyway thanks for the input.
I always liked Largo ‘79 because the setlist is different, most notably each member does one song from their solo album.
It’s a pro shot concert, too.
I couldn’t find full concert on YouTube, but there are plenty of individual clips.
Cool I'll have to look for that
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Re: Must have live shows

Post by jetcity »

Admin wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 5:55 pm
johnkissfan1974 wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 5:25 pm Tulsa I do not have but do know of two people (now) that have it ;)
Tulsa is interesting. It was originally recorded to cassette apparently. The copy that circulated for a few years was a shitty MP3. The copy I got transferred was on a reel. How it got from cassette > reel is another matter, for which I don't have the answer. It's out there so everyone has "it," though not necessarily the lossless transfer (which also ended up out there).
It was definitely recorded straight to a cassette from the soundboard by Jay Barth who gave it to JR Smalling. JR loaned it to Curt Gooch and me back in 2002 and we had it baked and transferred. We most certainly did NOT transfer it to reel. I believe JR sold it at some point after we returned the cassette to him. Perhaps whomever bought it, thought they could re-sell it for a higher price if they made it look like the master was on a reel, but I know absolutely for certain that the cassette is the master recording. (It also has a clip of 100,000 Years on it from an unknown 1975 show predating the Tulsa gig.)
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Re: Must have live shows

Post by johnkissfan1974 »

jetcity wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 8:52 am
Admin wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 5:55 pm
johnkissfan1974 wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 5:25 pm Tulsa I do not have but do know of two people (now) that have it ;)
Tulsa is interesting. It was originally recorded to cassette apparently. The copy that circulated for a few years was a shitty MP3. The copy I got transferred was on a reel. How it got from cassette > reel is another matter, for which I don't have the answer. It's out there so everyone has "it," though not necessarily the lossless transfer (which also ended up out there).
It was definitely recorded straight to a cassette from the soundboard by Jay Barth who gave it to JR Smalling. JR loaned it to Curt Gooch and me back in 2002 and we had it baked and transferred. We most certainly did NOT transfer it to reel. I believe JR sold it at some point after we returned the cassette to him. Perhaps whomever bought it, thought they could re-sell it for a higher price if they made it look like the master was on a reel, but I know absolutely for certain that the cassette is the master recording. (It also has a clip of 100,000 Years on it from an unknown 1975 show predating the Tulsa gig.)
Very interesting! I love hearing details about recordings. There should be a detailed book all about the known/confirmed bootleg recordings that have been released as well as any details as to how they were obtained and in what format they came from and etc (such as what you described about the master being cassette). Little tid bits of information like that is what totally fascinates me. I have talked Robert Conte’s ear off at times bc I want to know every detail about his experience. Marc Scallatino and I have become very good friends and talk daily (he is a super huge fan as well). I am sure I have annoyed one imporant member on this site asking question after question after question - but they have been very accomodating and respectful and answered all of my questions! I am very grateful to those I have become friendly/friends with that once worked for the Kiss organization (or currently do). I am such a fan of the 70’s/80’s Kiss era that I just absorb this stuff like a sponge.
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Re: Must have live shows

Post by Julien »

jetcity wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 8:52 am It was definitely recorded straight to a cassette from the soundboard by Jay Barth who gave it to JR Smalling. JR loaned it to Curt Gooch and me back in 2002 and we had it baked and transferred. We most certainly did NOT transfer it to reel. I believe JR sold it at some point after we returned the cassette to him. Perhaps whomever bought it, thought they could re-sell it for a higher price if they made it look like the master was on a reel, but I know absolutely for certain that the cassette is the master recording. (It also has a clip of 100,000 Years on it from an unknown 1975 show predating the Tulsa gig.)
Pretty sure I know who has the master cassette. And I still have my email from 2011, so know who I got the reel off. Tape could have been all over the place in those 9 years! Fortunately, the reel was a cheap purchase.
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Re: Must have live shows

Post by gothunder »

KissJJM wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 6:03 pmTulsa 75?
Yes. Been around for a few years.
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Re: Must have live shows

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Admin wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 9:55 am
jetcity wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 8:52 am It was definitely recorded straight to a cassette from the soundboard by Jay Barth who gave it to JR Smalling. JR loaned it to Curt Gooch and me back in 2002 and we had it baked and transferred. We most certainly did NOT transfer it to reel. I believe JR sold it at some point after we returned the cassette to him. Perhaps whomever bought it, thought they could re-sell it for a higher price if they made it look like the master was on a reel, but I know absolutely for certain that the cassette is the master recording. (It also has a clip of 100,000 Years on it from an unknown 1975 show predating the Tulsa gig.)
Pretty sure I know who has the master cassette. And I still have my email from 2011, so know who I got the reel off. Tape could have been all over the place in those 9 years! Fortunately, the reel was a cheap purchase.
If I had to guess I would say that person feels “no Peter, no Ace no problem!”
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Re: Must have live shows

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Admin wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 9:55 am
jetcity wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 8:52 am It was definitely recorded straight to a cassette from the soundboard by Jay Barth who gave it to JR Smalling. JR loaned it to Curt Gooch and me back in 2002 and we had it baked and transferred. We most certainly did NOT transfer it to reel. I believe JR sold it at some point after we returned the cassette to him. Perhaps whomever bought it, thought they could re-sell it for a higher price if they made it look like the master was on a reel, but I know absolutely for certain that the cassette is the master recording. (It also has a clip of 100,000 Years on it from an unknown 1975 show predating the Tulsa gig.)
Pretty sure I know who has the master cassette. And I still have my email from 2011, so know who I got the reel off. Tape could have been all over the place in those 9 years! Fortunately, the reel was a cheap purchase.
Maybe I'm missing something in my old age, but I cannot fathom why anyone would make a reel to reel copy of this when it was sourced from a garden variety Maxell cassette. Glad the reel was cheap. I suppose I could have just kept the master (JR never asked for it back, just asked that we wouldn't leak it), but I only wanted to hear and archive what was on it, and once that was done it seemed fair to return it to him. I knew he'd sold it and (I think) know who now owns it, but yeah, I have no clue what roads it traveled those 9 years.
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Re: Must have live shows

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gothunder wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:49 am
KissJJM wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 6:03 pmTulsa 75?
Yes. Been around for a few years.
I know. I have it. Just checking
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Re: Must have live shows

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johnkissfan1974 wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 9:19 am
Very interesting! I love hearing details about recordings. There should be a detailed book all about the known/confirmed bootleg recordings that have been released as well as any details as to how they were obtained and in what format they came from and etc (such as what you described about the master being cassette). Little tid bits of information like that is what totally fascinates me. I have talked Robert Conte’s ear off at times bc I want to know every detail about his experience. Marc Scallatino and I have become very good friends and talk daily (he is a super huge fan as well). I am sure I have annoyed one imporant member on this site asking question after question after question - but they have been very accomodating and respectful and answered all of my questions! I am very grateful to those I have become friendly/friends with that once worked for the Kiss organization (or currently do). I am such a fan of the 70’s/80’s Kiss era that I just absorb this stuff like a sponge.
Yeah, that would be a fun book to research and write, and I suppose I could do it, but I think the audience for it would be about seven people.

I've got a pretty up to date list of all the 1970s recordings known to exist (and even a few that were recorded and are lost/destroyed), but tracking the provenance of all the source material would be incredibly difficult. For example, the tape of the late show at the Bayou on March 25, 1974 in Washington D.C. has been in trading circles since the mid-1980s, but I have no idea who would have recorded it. KISS were nobody then, and the Bayou was a tiny hole in the wall, so there's little reason for anyone of the roughly 500 people who attended to have snuck a tape deck in.

Moose was running Front of House for KISS at that point and he didn't record it (it's not a board tape), and I've interviewed the only person I'm aware of who attended the show, Richard Harrington (the reviewer who wrote up the piece in the Washington Star) and he claimed he wasn't the taper. The promoter, Barry Richards, who we've also spoken to several times, didn't record it, and It wasn't a radio broadcast. Peter Arquette, who I think hails from the D.C. area, has had a copy of it longer than anyone else I've been able to find and he doesn't recall where/when or from whom he acquired his copy.

So, there's an example of a show that's been thoroughly researched but the original taper isn't close to being found.
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Re: Must have live shows

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jetcity wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 1:32 pm
johnkissfan1974 wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 9:19 am
Very interesting! I love hearing details about recordings. There should be a detailed book all about the known/confirmed bootleg recordings that have been released as well as any details as to how they were obtained and in what format they came from and etc (such as what you described about the master being cassette). Little tid bits of information like that is what totally fascinates me. I have talked Robert Conte’s ear off at times bc I want to know every detail about his experience. Marc Scallatino and I have become very good friends and talk daily (he is a super huge fan as well). I am sure I have annoyed one imporant member on this site asking question after question after question - but they have been very accomodating and respectful and answered all of my questions! I am very grateful to those I have become friendly/friends with that once worked for the Kiss organization (or currently do). I am such a fan of the 70’s/80’s Kiss era that I just absorb this stuff like a sponge.
Yeah, that would be a fun book to research and write, and I suppose I could do it, but I think the audience for it would be about seven people.

I've got a pretty up to date list of all the 1970s recordings known to exist (and even a few that were recorded and are lost/destroyed), but tracking the provenance of all the source material would be incredibly difficult. For example, the tape of the late show at the Bayou on March 25, 1974 in Washington D.C. has been in trading circles since the mid-1980s, but I have no idea who would have recorded it. KISS were nobody then, and the Bayou was a tiny hole in the wall, so there's little reason for anyone of the roughly 500 people who attended to have snuck a tape deck in.

Moose was running Front of House for KISS at that point and he didn't record it (it's not a board tape), and I've interviewed the only person I'm aware of who attended the show, Richard Harrington (the reviewer who wrote up the piece in the Washington Star) and he claimed he wasn't the taper. The promoter, Barry Richards, who we've also spoken to several times, didn't record it, and It wasn't a radio broadcast. Peter Arquette, who I think hails from the D.C. area, has had a copy of it longer than anyone else I've been able to find and he doesn't recall where/when or from whom he acquired his copy.

So, there's an example of a show that's been thoroughly researched but the original taper isn't close to being found.
THIS IS WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT! This is one show with so much information regarding the recording. Names are mentioned and in some cases, those individuals are no longer alive, and their experience/memories can no longer be documented. This is so fascinating to me and am very appreciative of what you shared. Its incredible.
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Re: Must have live shows

Post by cholvey »

Tulsa IS a great show. I have the lossy full concert & the guitar tone is killer. There’s also great separation between Ace & Paul’s guitars & they’re both really out front. My recording has some odd echo on the vocals so maybe isn’t the best example out there but I still love it.

I think that the idea of a “bootleg book” for kiss is great. I’d buy it! Probably a lot more low level collectors like me out there than people might think. I only really collect ‘73-‘77 but I’ve got over 30 recordings & definitely a couple that not many others have. I’m guessing I’m not alone in that.

This is a good thread. Very interesting. Keep it going!!
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Re: Must have live shows

Post by Mike5477 »

alivecatman wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 4:42 am I would add Anahiem 76
Yep.
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Re: Must have live shows

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Again thank you all for the ideas I'm definitely gonna be checking these out. I know some are on youtube. I'd really like something that mixes the alive songs with the destroyer and or RARO songs. Ii get tired of the same set list over and over so Anaheim 76 looks promising and for sure I'll checkout Largo 79. I think they sounded awesome in New Zealand with Eric. I think Paul held notes differently and Eric's drumming really made the songs sound different. I'm gonna go on a search for Tulsa 75 right now.
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Re: Must have live shows

Post by johnkissfan1974 »

DaveinSpain wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:18 pm Again thank you all for the ideas I'm definitely gonna be checking these out. I know some are on youtube. I'd really like something that mixes the alive songs with the destroyer and or RARO songs. Ii get tired of the same set list over and over so Anaheim 76 looks promising and for sure I'll checkout Largo 79. I think they sounded awesome in New Zealand with Eric. I think Paul held notes differently and Eric's drumming really made the songs sound different. I'm gonna go on a search for Tulsa 75 right now.
I LOVE Kiss’ sound on the 1980 tour. The songs had a fresh face thanks to Eric’s style. I hope the band releases an official full set release from that tour one day!
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Re: Must have live shows

Post by turbodrive »

DaveinSpain wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:18 pm Again thank you all for the ideas I'm definitely gonna be checking these out. I know some are on youtube. I'd really like something that mixes the alive songs with the destroyer and or RARO songs. Ii get tired of the same set list over and over so Anaheim 76 looks promising and for sure I'll checkout Largo 79. I think they sounded awesome in New Zealand with Eric. I think Paul held notes differently and Eric's drumming really made the songs sound different. I'm gonna go on a search for Tulsa 75 right now.
Re Anaheim '76, be sure and check out this one...



A really great combination of footage from the screens above the stage mixed with wide angle footage from the mixing table. I wish the entire show was available like this.
Last edited by turbodrive on Wed Feb 10, 2021 1:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Lofton23rdSt
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Re: Must have live shows

Post by Lofton23rdSt »

jetcity wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 1:32 pm
Yeah, that would be a fun book to research and write, and I suppose I could do it, but I think the audience for it would be about seven people.

I've got a pretty up to date list of all the 1970s recordings known to exist (and even a few that were recorded and are lost/destroyed), but tracking the provenance of all the source material would be incredibly difficult. For example, the tape of the late show at the Bayou on March 25, 1974 in Washington D.C. has been in trading circles since the mid-1980s, but I have no idea who would have recorded it. KISS were nobody then, and the Bayou was a tiny hole in the wall, so there's little reason for anyone of the roughly 500 people who attended to have snuck a tape deck in.

Moose was running Front of House for KISS at that point and he didn't record it (it's not a board tape), and I've interviewed the only person I'm aware of who attended the show, Richard Harrington (the reviewer who wrote up the piece in the Washington Star) and he claimed he wasn't the taper. The promoter, Barry Richards, who we've also spoken to several times, didn't record it, and It wasn't a radio broadcast. Peter Arquette, who I think hails from the D.C. area, has had a copy of it longer than anyone else I've been able to find and he doesn't recall where/when or from whom he acquired his copy.

So, there's an example of a show that's been thoroughly researched but the original taper isn't close to being found.
I wondered why the D.C. show wasn't talked about more since it sounds good and was one of their oldest shows. Peter Arquette should remember how he got it.
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Julien
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Re: 1975-06-13 - Tulsa, OK (SBD)

Post by Julien »