If The Elder movie had happened...

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If The Elder movie had happened...

Post by Metalion_SOS »

Let's just pretend that the album was a big hit and some film studio actually made the album into a feature film... how would the music have been incorporated?

Just as a background score? What would be the point then!?

So it would have been a musical...
With either:
a) the actors lip-synching to the original songs.
b) the actors re-recording the songs with their own vocals.
c) KISS themselves starring and using the album recordings.

NONE of those options would have worked!
I'd still love to see this disaster though!
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Re: If The Elder movie had happened...

Post by Starchild74 »

I'm just surprised then already started planning to work on the sequel to The Elder in November 1981. And then if the movie got made there will be a soundtrack to it too. So 3 Elder albums were planned.
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Re: If The Elder movie had happened...

Post by Dave's not here »

Metalion_SOS wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:46 pm Let's just pretend that the album was a big hit and some film studio actually made the album into a feature film... how would the music have been incorporated?

Just as a background score? What would be the point then!?

That’s what I imagine would have happened.
Probably with KISS songs from the album during the closing credits.

And they’d have to make sure Tom Selleck was involved, because I hear the kids today love “the Tom Selleck.”
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Re: If The Elder movie had happened...

Post by sneed78 »

It maybe could’ve worked as an animated movie like Heavy Metal.
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Re: If The Elder movie had happened...

Post by FlamingRuth »

I say "b".
It'd be like The Who/Tommy.
We'd have the original album with all the songs by Kiss and then a movie soundtrack with actors re-recording them.
Can Chris Makepeace sing though? THAT is the question.
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Re: If The Elder movie had happened...

Post by Frigoria »

Something like, The Song Remains the Same. Live concert footage cross-cut with the main storyline. As though the band is narrating the movie. Metallica's, Through The Never was similar.

Lots of time to see the band, and enough time to tell the story. 2 hours runtime.
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Re: If The Elder movie had happened...

Post by Bruce »

To save on production costs, the medieival Boy and/or manchild would have to be propelled into the 20th Century, to find KIϟϟ waiting. Both they and their magical amulets connecting them to The Elder. Morpheous and the boy would step through a portal to stop Blackwell from changing the future. They would trade in their ancient frocks for 80's clothes and treat themselves to a KIϟϟ concert, or two ... especially after the battle had been won.
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Re: If The Elder movie had happened...

Post by thegraveyardtramp »

From what I have gathered, the original plan wasn't to use any of the KISS songs in the movie. I've always thought that the album was there to introduce people to the concept of THE ELDER, and to help promote an eventual movie. I believe the plan was that if the movie did get made, it would have had a traditional film score, while KISS would continue the concept in rock form on the planned follow-up LP, WAR OF THE GODS.

But TBH, I don't think the band and management had any real clue or idea of what would have happened, I think they just hoped the album would be a big enough hit that some film studio would instantly snap up the rights to develop it onscreen. It's mind-boggling the think that in 1981 KISS thought they still had the clout to get a headline spot on 60 MINUTES to talk about their new "serious" approach.
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Re: If The Elder movie had happened...

Post by DaveinSpain »

sneed78 wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:13 pm It maybe could’ve worked as an animated movie like Heavy Metal.
I sort of picture it this way too with more of a Lord of the Rings vibe too it.
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Re: If The Elder movie had happened...

Post by Greasepaint74 »

Frigoria wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:59 pm Something like, The Song Remains the Same. Live concert footage cross-cut with the main storyline. As though the band is narrating the movie. Metallica's, Through The Never was similar.

Lots of time to see the band, and enough time to tell the story. 2 hours runtime.
This
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Re: If The Elder movie had happened...

Post by Deuce1231 »

Metalion_SOS wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:46 pm Let's just pretend that the album was a big hit and some film studio actually made the album into a feature film... how would the music have been incorporated?

Just as a background score? What would be the point then!?

So it would have been a musical...
With either:
a) the actors lip-synching to the original songs.
b) the actors re-recording the songs with their own vocals.
c) KISS themselves starring and using the album recordings.

NONE of those options would have worked!
I'd still love to see this disaster though!
The songs were going to be set to cues in the score, per the final script.
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Re: If The Elder movie had happened...

Post by Tanith »

DaveinSpain wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:05 am
sneed78 wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:13 pm It maybe could’ve worked as an animated movie like Heavy Metal.
I sort of picture it this way too with more of a Lord of the Rings vibe too it.
Hmm...I wonder who'd be Gollum, in that scenario. :shock:
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Re: If The Elder movie had happened...

Post by Deuce1231 »

thegraveyardtramp wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 4:04 am From what I have gathered, the original plan wasn't to use any of the KISS songs in the movie. I've always thought that the album was there to introduce people to the concept of THE ELDER, and to help promote an eventual movie. I believe the plan was that if the movie did get made, it would have had a traditional film score, while KISS would continue the concept in rock form on the planned follow-up LP, WAR OF THE GODS.

But TBH, I don't think the band and management had any real clue or idea of what would have happened, I think they just hoped the album would be a big enough hit that some film studio would instantly snap up the rights to develop it onscreen. It's mind-boggling the think that in 1981 KISS thought they still had the clout to get a headline spot on 60 MINUTES to talk about their new "serious" approach.
Where did you get this impression? The script has cues for the songs. Whether that would be the songs from the record, or a full-fledged score of sorts, I don't know, but the tunes are named at various places when the time is right. "Just A Boy" when they're on the ship they had to build, "Odyssey" when they're making their journey with Myra from the mountain she lives on where "stands the stallion and the mare", and "Mr. Blackwell" when Blackwell is walking through one of his torture dungeons. Among others.
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Re: If The Elder movie had happened...

Post by Deuce1231 »

sneed78 wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:13 pm It maybe could’ve worked as an animated movie like Heavy Metal.
Certainly elements of the script could have been animated. The Space Roads act would have been a good choice for animation. There's even an element reminiscent of Heavy Metal in that act with something like the Loc-Nar orb.
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Re: If The Elder movie had happened...

Post by Kiss-Army-Sergeant »

Metalion_SOS wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:46 pm Let's just pretend that the album was a big hit and some film studio actually made the album into a feature film... how would the music have been incorporated?

Just as a background score? What would be the point then!?

So it would have been a musical...
With either:
a) the actors lip-synching to the original songs.
b) the actors re-recording the songs with their own vocals.
c) KISS themselves starring and using the album recordings.

NONE of those options would have worked!
I'd still love to see this disaster though!
Probably similar to how they incorporated some of the tunes in the Scooby Doo movie.
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Re: If The Elder movie had happened...

Post by stvand13 »

would have been a double feature along w/ Xanadu
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Re: If The Elder movie had happened...

Post by Legsofsteel »

It would be the best movie ever.
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Re: If The Elder movie had happened...

Post by bassmansteiny »

Bruce wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:22 pm To save on production costs, the medieival Boy and/or manchild would have to be propelled into the 20th Century, to find KIϟϟ waiting. Both they and their magical amulets connecting them to The Elder. Morpheous and the boy would step through a portal to stop Blackwell from changing the future. They would trade in their ancient frocks for 80's clothes and treat themselves to a KIϟϟ concert, or two ... especially after the battle had been won.
I like this idea. 😄
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Re: If The Elder movie had happened...

Post by WI KISSfan »

Metalion_SOS wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:46 pm Let's just pretend that the album was a big hit and some film studio actually made the album into a feature film... how would the music have been incorporated?

Just as a background score? What would be the point then!?

So it would have been a musical...
With either:
a) the actors lip-synching to the original songs.
b) the actors re-recording the songs with their own vocals.
c) KISS themselves starring and using the album recordings.

NONE of those options would have worked!
I'd still love to see this disaster though!
Sorry, you lost me at "Let's just pretend that the album was a big hit"
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Re: If The Elder movie had happened...

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Deuce1231 wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:10 am
thegraveyardtramp wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 4:04 am From what I have gathered, the original plan wasn't to use any of the KISS songs in the movie. I've always thought that the album was there to introduce people to the concept of THE ELDER, and to help promote an eventual movie. I believe the plan was that if the movie did get made, it would have had a traditional film score, while KISS would continue the concept in rock form on the planned follow-up LP, WAR OF THE GODS.

But TBH, I don't think the band and management had any real clue or idea of what would have happened, I think they just hoped the album would be a big enough hit that some film studio would instantly snap up the rights to develop it onscreen. It's mind-boggling the think that in 1981 KISS thought they still had the clout to get a headline spot on 60 MINUTES to talk about their new "serious" approach.
Where did you get this impression? The script has cues for the songs. Whether that would be the songs from the record, or a full-fledged score of sorts, I don't know, but the tunes are named at various places when the time is right. "Just A Boy" when they're on the ship they had to build, "Odyssey" when they're making their journey with Myra from the mountain she lives on where "stands the stallion and the mare", and "Mr. Blackwell" when Blackwell is walking through one of his torture dungeons. Among others.
There was a memo from Aucoin, that I believe Julian made available here for a short while, that read:

"So begins the story of THE ELDER and the album entitled ”MUSIC FROM THE ELDER”. The story is meant for presentation on film either via general distribution or television. The album is meant to precede the release of the film and is not intended to be a ”soundtrack” but a concept album which introduces the theme, primary characters and basic storyline of THE ELDER in a manner that entices audience curiosity and uses radio to stimulate advance interest in the film".

The Elder (Aucoin memo)

The memo is also included in this article here:

https://axeologyextended.wordpress.com/ ... so-are-we/

But as I said in my original post above, I don't think the band/manager had any real idea of what they wanted at the time, they were likely changing their minds every day, I think in general they were just praying that the album would be a hit, and the movie details would take care of themselves after that.
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Re: If The Elder movie had happened...

Post by AstroWarped »

I like to think, "The Elder" movie will still happen. With today technology. Tied to the release of a Deluxe boxed set with the original full score with some new embellishments. Oh and rated R so that it's cool, (could just release a PG13 cut in theaters), realistic and not Phantom of the Park, silly, cheesy, tacky!

I also, hope for a live Broadway style performance of the complete score!
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Re: If The Elder movie had happened...

Post by Metalion_SOS »

Deuce1231 wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:10 am
Where did you get this impression? The script has cues for the songs. Whether that would be the songs from the record, or a full-fledged score of sorts, I don't know, but the tunes are named at various places when the time is right. "Just A Boy" when they're on the ship they had to build, "Odyssey" when they're making their journey with Myra from the mountain she lives on where "stands the stallion and the mare", and "Mr. Blackwell" when Blackwell is walking through one of his torture dungeons. Among others.
Thanks for this post, these details are amazing!
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Re: If The Elder movie had happened...

Post by THUNDER GHOST »

I would have thought they would have learned their lesson from Kiss Meets The Phantom. Wasn't it considered a bomb out of the gate?

And curious since Peter Guber was running the Casablanca Filmworks portion of Casablanca, was he still involved in that late date or was Polygram already taking over and it was supposed to be a Polygram production?

Whatever the case, I'm sure it would be a bomb. It would have been interesting though, if it was successful how that would have impacted the album and people's view of the album.

I have to think with Bob Ezrin involved, they were looking for a Pink Floyd The Wall type of success.

Cocaine's a hell of a drug. Between Aucoin and Ezrin, at that point in their addictions, I'm sure the delusions were Grand
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Re: If The Elder movie had happened...

Post by Bruce »

bassmansteiny wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:35 am I like this idea. 😄
Yeah, I don't know, though, myself. I'm just glad it never got done. But in the past decade, some fan or another kept threatening to finally make it through sone crowd funding thing. I'm sure you've heard. In a way, I'm glad it never took off, either. Not that i wouldnt support an Elder movie. Par from the course. Its just that to do it right is gonna take a helluva chunks dough! Cheap-ass CGI and no-name actors have their place and all ... but not in The Elder.
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Re: If The Elder movie had happened...

Post by Hotter Than Heck »

FlamingRuth wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:31 pm I say "b".
It'd be like The Who/Tommy.
We'd have the original album with all the songs by Kiss and then a movie soundtrack with actors re-recording them.
Can Chris Makepeace sing though? THAT is the question.
I agree, maybe even more of a Bee Gees/Frampton style Sgt Peppers but with like Devo & Marshal Crenshaw instead, something like that
sneed78 wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:13 pm It maybe could’ve worked as an animated movie like Heavy Metal.
I could definitely have seen it going this way too & I would have absolutely been all in on it for sure!

Whatever it would have been I would have been begging my mom to take me or somehow glomming onto some friend when their mom took them & no matter how horrible it may have been I would have probably been a total sucker for it at the time!
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Re: If The Elder movie had happened...

Post by Deuce1231 »

thegraveyardtramp wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 4:45 pm
Deuce1231 wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:10 am
thegraveyardtramp wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 4:04 am From what I have gathered, the original plan wasn't to use any of the KISS songs in the movie. I've always thought that the album was there to introduce people to the concept of THE ELDER, and to help promote an eventual movie. I believe the plan was that if the movie did get made, it would have had a traditional film score, while KISS would continue the concept in rock form on the planned follow-up LP, WAR OF THE GODS.

But TBH, I don't think the band and management had any real clue or idea of what would have happened, I think they just hoped the album would be a big enough hit that some film studio would instantly snap up the rights to develop it onscreen. It's mind-boggling the think that in 1981 KISS thought they still had the clout to get a headline spot on 60 MINUTES to talk about their new "serious" approach.
Where did you get this impression? The script has cues for the songs. Whether that would be the songs from the record, or a full-fledged score of sorts, I don't know, but the tunes are named at various places when the time is right. "Just A Boy" when they're on the ship they had to build, "Odyssey" when they're making their journey with Myra from the mountain she lives on where "stands the stallion and the mare", and "Mr. Blackwell" when Blackwell is walking through one of his torture dungeons. Among others.
There was a memo from Aucoin, that I believe Julian made available here for a short while, that read:

"So begins the story of THE ELDER and the album entitled ”MUSIC FROM THE ELDER”. The story is meant for presentation on film either via general distribution or television. The album is meant to precede the release of the film and is not intended to be a ”soundtrack” but a concept album which introduces the theme, primary characters and basic storyline of THE ELDER in a manner that entices audience curiosity and uses radio to stimulate advance interest in the film".

The Elder (Aucoin memo)

The memo is also included in this article here:

https://axeologyextended.wordpress.com/ ... so-are-we/

But as I said in my original post above, I don't think the band/manager had any real idea of what they wanted at the time, they were likely changing their minds every day, I think in general they were just praying that the album would be a hit, and the movie details would take care of themselves after that.
That's a new take even for me. I must have missed that nuance there when it was probably right in my face..🤣

The script, though, seems like the screenwriters were told "here's a bunch of songs, write a story" and they decided to associate scenes with the music.
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Re: If The Elder movie had happened...

Post by Deuce1231 »

Metalion_SOS wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:34 pm
Deuce1231 wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:10 am
Where did you get this impression? The script has cues for the songs. Whether that would be the songs from the record, or a full-fledged score of sorts, I don't know, but the tunes are named at various places when the time is right. "Just A Boy" when they're on the ship they had to build, "Odyssey" when they're making their journey with Myra from the mountain she lives on where "stands the stallion and the mare", and "Mr. Blackwell" when Blackwell is walking through one of his torture dungeons. Among others.
Thanks for this post, these details are amazing!
Read Julian's and Tim's book. Julian interviewed me for a chapter on the script.
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Re: If The Elder movie had happened...

Post by FlamingRuth »

Hotter Than Heck wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 6:17 pm
FlamingRuth wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:31 pm I say "b".
It'd be like The Who/Tommy.
We'd have the original album with all the songs by Kiss and then a movie soundtrack with actors re-recording them.
Can Chris Makepeace sing though? THAT is the question.
I agree, maybe even more of a Bee Gees/Frampton style Sgt Peppers but with like Devo & Marshal Crenshaw instead, something like that
:D
I was reflecting on how there are no female characters in the story of The Elder . So then I thought, why not change Mr. Blackwell to Mrs. Blackwell and get Tina Turner to play the part, like a new (not necessarily improved) Gypsy Queen..?
But you're right--we probably would have ended up with Debbie Gibson or some silly person instead.
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Re: If The Elder movie had happened...

Post by peterparker78 »

I'd have always hoped for something similar to Highlander. That said, I recently listened to Jeff Wayne's excellent War Of The Worlds (one of my annual treats). Though the WOTW album is a bit on the long side, I realised an 'Elder' film would need quite a few more songs or at least muiscal pieces & themes to flesh out a potential movie sound track....
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Re: If The Elder movie had happened...

Post by Hotter Than Heck »

FlamingRuth wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 6:44 pm
Hotter Than Heck wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 6:17 pm
FlamingRuth wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:31 pm I say "b".
It'd be like The Who/Tommy.
We'd have the original album with all the songs by Kiss and then a movie soundtrack with actors re-recording them.
Can Chris Makepeace sing though? THAT is the question.
I agree, maybe even more of a Bee Gees/Frampton style Sgt Peppers but with like Devo & Marshal Crenshaw instead, something like that
:D
I was reflecting on how there are no female characters in the story of The Elder . So then I thought, why not change Mr. Blackwell to Mrs. Blackwell and get Tina Turner to play the part, like a new (not necessarily improved) Gypsy Queen..?
But you're right--we probably would have ended up with Debbie Gibson or some silly person instead.
Hell yes! Now I need to cast the whole thing female tho...

The boy would become the girl so I'm thinking either Joan Jett or Stevie Nicks? Edit - or maybe Pat Benatar!

Morpheus could be...I don't know, Dolly Parton?
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Re: If The Elder movie had happened...

Post by FlamingRuth »

Hotter Than Heck wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:00 pm
FlamingRuth wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 6:44 pm
Hotter Than Heck wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 6:17 pm
FlamingRuth wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:31 pm I say "b".
It'd be like The Who/Tommy.
We'd have the original album with all the songs by Kiss and then a movie soundtrack with actors re-recording them.
Can Chris Makepeace sing though? THAT is the question.
I agree, maybe even more of a Bee Gees/Frampton style Sgt Peppers but with like Devo & Marshal Crenshaw instead, something like that
:D
I was reflecting on how there are no female characters in the story of The Elder . So then I thought, why not change Mr. Blackwell to Mrs. Blackwell and get Tina Turner to play the part, like a new (not necessarily improved) Gypsy Queen..?
But you're right--we probably would have ended up with Debbie Gibson or some silly person instead.
Hell yes! Now I need to cast the whole thing female tho...

The boy would become the girl so I'm thinking either Joan Jett or Stevie Nicks? Edit - or maybe Pat Benatar!

Morpheus could be...I don't know, Dolly Parton?
😁 Oh definitely Pat Benatar as The Girl.
I don’t know what character Ace was supposed to be when he sang Dark Light, but can’t you just hear Chrissie Hynde singing,”Watch out....or it’s Sodom and Gomorrah...”
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Re: If The Elder movie had happened...

Post by Bruce »

The Dark Light character! Yes, sometimes wondered this, myself. Even when Gene sings Mr. Blackwell, I'm sure he's just the narratator, like the guy who sings Mr. Grinch. Gene sounds like he's playing a shady character, though. One whose had dealings with Blackwell, perhaps reluctantly.

Ace in Dark Light, however, may be playing an Oracle of some kind, but his delivery is such, where he just sounds like himself -- so, he may only be narrarating. He sounds so course, though. More like a peasant than an Elder. Perhaps, The Boy encounters an Elder in this guise, briefly, unexpectedly, to be advised further.

There are some heavy implications involved in the loose lyrics to these songs. Unfortunately, though, you've really gotta be paying attetion and getting into it, that way. The great reluctance the band shows in defining its storyline, here, is something. It may be a concept album, but just like on their regular records, everybody's swinging off their own bat. Arrange the songs almost any other way and nothing really changes. It still offers you nothing but disassociated word salad ...
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Re: If The Elder movie had happened...

Post by Phyllis Simmons »

Deuce1231 wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 6:42 pm
Metalion_SOS wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:34 pm
Deuce1231 wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:10 am
Where did you get this impression? The script has cues for the songs. Whether that would be the songs from the record, or a full-fledged score of sorts, I don't know, but the tunes are named at various places when the time is right. "Just A Boy" when they're on the ship they had to build, "Odyssey" when they're making their journey with Myra from the mountain she lives on where "stands the stallion and the mare", and "Mr. Blackwell" when Blackwell is walking through one of his torture dungeons. Among others.
Thanks for this post, these details are amazing!
Read Julian's and Tim's book. Julian interviewed me for a chapter on the script.
I would recommend this. I only bought my copy of Julian's Odyssey book inside the last year, and Deucey goes into great detail about the contents of the Elder script. The script sounded really interesting and sounds like it would have made a very good film.. As Deucey was going into detail, I was thinking the Highlander. It crossed between present day and ancient times, and definitely had that vibe. But instead of a Queen soundtrack we would have got a KISS soundtrack! The Elder film idea in that form, or that script attempt definitely had potential...
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Going Blind
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Re: If The Elder movie had happened...

Post by Going Blind »

THUNDER GHOST wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:45 pm I would have thought they would have learned their lesson from Kiss Meets The Phantom. Wasn't it considered a bomb out of the gate?

And curious since Peter Guber was running the Casablanca Filmworks portion of Casablanca, was he still involved in that late date or was Polygram already taking over and it was supposed to be a Polygram production?

Whatever the case, I'm sure it would be a bomb. It would have been interesting though, if it was successful how that would have impacted the album and people's view of the album.

I have to think with Bob Ezrin involved, they were looking for a Pink Floyd The Wall type of success.

Cocaine's a hell of a drug. Between Aucoin and Ezrin, at that point in their addictions, I'm sure the delusions were Grand
I get the impression this was all Gene's baby. Paul seems to have been shaking his head the whole time, Ace hated it, Eric must have been wtf band did I join? Subsequently if seems to me this is Gene's downfall in Kiss, this led to Paul calling the shots in the 80's from here on out, Gene looking for something else to do.
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Re: If The Elder movie had happened...

Post by JohnBergless »

I’m quite sure that John Williams, Steven Spielberg and George Lucas thank their lucky stars every day that The Elder movie never happened. Because assuredly it would have blown all three of them out of the water!
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bassmansteiny
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Re: If The Elder movie had happened...

Post by bassmansteiny »

Bruce wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:55 pm
bassmansteiny wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:35 am I like this idea. 😄
Yeah, I don't know, though, myself. I'm just glad it never got done. But in the past decade, some fan or another kept threatening to finally make it through sone crowd funding thing. I'm sure you've heard. In a way, I'm glad it never took off, either. Not that i wouldnt support an Elder movie. Par from the course. Its just that to do it right is gonna take a helluva chunks dough! Cheap-ass CGI and no-name actors have their place and all ... but not in The Elder.
I see your point. 👍
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caligari
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Re: If The Elder movie had happened...

Post by caligari »

… it would have been a HUGE flop.
And THE END of KISS.
Not unlike “Can’t Stop The Music” was the final mail in the coffin of The Village People.
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Re: If The Elder movie had happened...

Post by sabresaxon »

Plot twist, the whole Elder project was inspired by Mel Brook’s The Producers where you can make more money from a flop than a hit.

It’s the only explanation for experienced professionals musicians making such an obvious clusterfuck, to secretly scam Polygram.