What if The Elder never happened......

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What if The Elder never happened......

Post by metalmike76 »

Forget Marvel “What If”...this is a KISS “What If” :lol:
Check out my video that goes on a hypothetical journey of what could have been....
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Re: What if The Elder never happened......

Post by Kiss-Army-Sergeant »

Ace might still be in the band?

Seriously, I like The Elder. Maybe I didn't care for it when it first came out given the timing and genre, but it's a pretty good album. I just wish they had fully developed the concept.
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Re: What if The Elder never happened......

Post by jr196301 »

What if? Nothing. Many assume the downfall of KISS was the Elder. The downfall of KISS was the movie and the solo albums. It was exacerbated by Dynasty and Unmasked. They were already done by the Elder but didn't realize it yet. Wouldn't have mattered if they went right to Creatures after
Unmasked. Result is the same
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Re: What if The Elder never happened......

Post by Ludwig Paiste 77 »

The Elder coming out at that time is perfect I wouldn't want it any other way, besides less within a year they would release Nowhere to run and Creatures, it's my life was a missed opportunity should released it as soon as they could, I personally think The Elder is still better than what people thought they could've come up with at the time , and I believe Ace was out no matter what.
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Re: What if The Elder never happened......

Post by redinthesky »

jr196301 wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 7:46 pm What if? Nothing. Many assume the downfall of KISS was the Elder. The downfall of KISS was the movie and the solo albums. It was exacerbated by Dynasty and Unmasked. They were already done by the Elder but didn't realize it yet. Wouldn't have mattered if they went right to Creatures after
Unmasked. Result is the same
Kiss' downfall was due to more than one thing, but no, they weren't done before the Elder. "Dynasty" went platinum and had a huge single. I'm no fan of Unmasked but it was a big hit in certain parts of the world. These things certainly don't happen to a "done" band. With "The Elder," it was received so poorly it sold like crap and the band couldn't even do a single concert anywhere on the planet for it ("Friday's" was not a concert). No concert guarantees, no merch sales, no nothing. There is very good argument in saying 'The Elder' is indeed what made Kiss "done."

I remember those days. If you weren't a teen then, you can't understand how much Kiss was hated at that point, and thought of as nothing but a huge joke by The Elder and beyond in late 1981 and in 1982. "Kiss is dead" and "Kiss is for kids" were the two big sayings about Kiss in my school in 1982. Some people got into Creatures, but it was too late.
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Re: What if The Elder never happened......

Post by B5Erik »

Their last chance was in 1980. Had they put out an album like Creatures in 1980 they might not have fallen so far. That was the year that Metal and Hard Rock came back big. And instead of fitting in with those groups, the groups their old fans loved, they went Power Pop, which put several nails in their career coffin.

The Elder was just the final nail. There were several others, starting with the solo albums, then the movie, then Dynasty, and, finally, Unmasked was the unforgivable sin. The Elder was just that final nail, a nail that wasn't even necessary because they were already dead. Yeah, Creatures would have sold better in late '81 and early '82 than The Elder did, but it wasn't going to be a hit no matter what.
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Re: What if The Elder never happened......

Post by kiss-1976 »

They hinted of a harder direction for their next album all during the Australian tour. They had just taken Iron Maiden out on their European tour. They had their own destiny in their hands and they fucked it up. Only themselves to blame...
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Re: What if The Elder never happened......

Post by Pete2174 »

kiss-1976 wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 8:57 pm They hinted of a harder direction for their next album all during the Australian tour. They had just taken Iron Maiden out on their European tour. They had their own destiny in their hands and they fucked it up. Only themselves to blame...
They created Kiss to destroy Kiss…
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Re: What if The Elder never happened......

Post by steve »

My favourite KISS album wouldn’t exist and I very likely wouldn’t be a fan.
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Re: What if The Elder never happened......

Post by Goodwilltowardsall »

There would be dramatic outcries that KISS never do anything different, then when they did do something different (whatever form it took) there would be a tsunami of protests that it was much too different with expressions like "I want Gene to do a Beatles-type album". In general, it seems that this is a group (not everybody and perhaps not you) that tends to want to be served the same meal over & over with minimal variation & does not care for musical innovation (notice large degree of disdain for things like the Elder, initial disco move, COS, ballads, solo albums that stray from the tried and true KISS formula). It may be helpful for KISS to put out a warning/grading system regarding the degree of deviation from the classic KISS formula and put out multiple versions of product to accommodate fans' preferences for variation. It serves no purpose for them to put out anything new.
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Re: What if The Elder never happened......

Post by sneed78 »

I love the Elder, but often wonder too what would’ve happened if they’d released a heavy album in mid ‘81. The goodwill with Ace was still there as they were recording at his studio and those demos kicked ass.

The streamlined Elder costumes could’ve worked with it and instead of cutting their hair, grow it even longer and tease it up even more.

Along with the tank stage, it could’ve been cool (in an alternate universe where they haven’t over exposed themselves in the years prior).

But it’s fun to fantasize:


Image

Image
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Re: What if The Elder never happened......

Post by Kissoff »

Then I wouldn't have ridden my bike in the rain at night to Music Coop to buy it with my money from working at McDonalds
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Re: What if The Elder never happened......

Post by sabresaxon »

For all the time, effort and money spent on The Elder, I just think it's interesting KISS could have done absolutely nothing in 1981 and their career prospects would have been just as promising, if not better.
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Re: What if The Elder never happened......

Post by metalmike76 »

sneed78 wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:17 pm I love the Elder, but often wonder too what would’ve happened if they’d released a heavy album in mid ‘81. The goodwill with Ace was still there as they were recording at his studio and those demos kicked ass.

The streamlined Elder costumes could’ve worked with it and instead of cutting their hair, grow it even longer and tease it up even more.

Along with the tank stage, it could’ve been cool (in an alternate universe where they haven’t over exposed themselves in the years prior).

But it’s fun to fantasize:


Image

Image
Agree with you 100% long hair w/ those costumes would have kicked ass. I made a similar pic and put it in the video
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Re: What if The Elder never happened......

Post by metalmike76 »

Goodwilltowardsall wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:16 pm There would be dramatic outcries that KISS never do anything different, then when they did do something different (whatever form it took) there would be a tsunami of protests that it was much too different with expressions like "I want Gene to do a Beatles-type album". In general, it seems that this is a group (not everybody and perhaps not you) that tends to want to be served the same meal over & over with minimal variation & does not care for musical innovation (notice large degree of disdain for things like the Elder, initial disco move, COS, ballads, solo albums that stray from the tried and true KISS formula). It may be helpful for KISS to put out a warning/grading system regarding the degree of deviation from the classic KISS formula and put out multiple versions of product to accommodate fans' preferences for variation. It serves no purpose for them to put out anything new.
I have no problem with their various deviations from the norm. I think that’s what makes being a KISS fun. Look at bands like AC/DC. Never really changed the sound or image very much...which is commendable....but definitely boring
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Re: What if The Elder never happened......

Post by Glasgow Kiss »

With a lot of these alternate history scenarios, the eventual outcome would more or less have been the same anyway regardless of the selected point of divergence.

For example, the "what if they never released the solo albums in 78, just recorded another album and toured again" one...the reality is that the original four were beginning to fracture by that point and all the solo albums did was postpone the inevitable by maybe a year.

Same in this scenario - the damage was already done before they'd laid down a note of The Elder. By 1980 North America was heartily sick of them after their over-exposure of the preceding few years...they were able to fall back on secondary markets for the Unmasked tour, but their situation was still at rock bottom back home. In 1981, they could have recorded something that blew everything else they'd ever recorded out the water...it wouldn't have sold shit and likely Ace would have still left.
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Re: What if The Elder never happened......

Post by vdojaq »

redinthesky wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 8:32 pm
jr196301 wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 7:46 pm What if? Nothing. Many assume the downfall of KISS was the Elder. The downfall of KISS was the movie and the solo albums. It was exacerbated by Dynasty and Unmasked. They were already done by the Elder but didn't realize it yet. Wouldn't have mattered if they went right to Creatures after
Unmasked. Result is the same
Kiss' downfall was due to more than one thing, but no, they weren't done before the Elder. "Dynasty" went platinum and had a huge single. I'm no fan of Unmasked but it was a big hit in certain parts of the world. These things certainly don't happen to a "done" band. With "The Elder," it was received so poorly it sold like crap and the band couldn't even do a single concert anywhere on the planet for it ("Friday's" was not a concert). No concert guarantees, no merch sales, no nothing. There is very good argument in saying 'The Elder' is indeed what made Kiss "done."

I remember those days. If you weren't a teen then, you can't understand how much Kiss was hated at that point, and thought of as nothing but a huge joke by The Elder and beyond in late 1981 and in 1982. "Kiss is dead" and "Kiss is for kids" were the two big sayings about Kiss in my school in 1982. Some people got into Creatures, but it was too late.
It's 1980, new drummer and no promoters wanted to touch them in the U.S. It's a new album of pop/soft rock(Unmasked) and they cannot tour their home country. I would say they were done.

By the time the Elder was released, they were cooked. If both Unmasked and The Elder were scrapped in favor of a COTN, HTH, type album and the "edge" was back in their styles and attitudes, they might have been able to re-establish a good portion of the fan base they lost during KMTPOTP & Dynasty. By 81 - 82 the KISS is Dead, KISS sucks, KISS is a kiddie band was already well established in the minds of the music hungry teens & young adults. Many times, you got your ass into fights for being a KISS fan at that time.
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Re: What if The Elder never happened......

Post by badmachineogm »

As many have expressed, KISS’ demise was well in play prior to the release of The Elder. That said….

I believe KISS could have issued The Elder in its original (and now current) track order if it had released a second album at the same time featuring tracks from the original release, plus the new tracks on Killers.

KISS could have easily spun the two releases by saying “We’ve had a lot new music in our heads, in our hearts and in our groins. KISS has always been more than one type of ice cream. Music from The Elder is a brand new flavor. [NEW ALBUM] is what we’ve always loved to lick - and lick off you.” Or some stupid shit to this effect.
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Re: What if The Elder never happened......

Post by KlassicKISS54 »

KISS' image was dead prior to the release of the Elder. Its easy to move records around and say, " this would have worked." But truth is they could have put out Creatures next and it would have tanked too. They had kiddie-fied their image into being so unpopular, the music was no longer a counter selling point. Hell even their most classic albums like Destroyer were being laughed at by 1981.

People not of this generation have to understand KISS in its heyday was built from NOT being overexposed. They had limited television appearances because their image was deemed too extreme. And they had built a big following from their live shows that featured this crazy guy blowing flames and vomiting blood that gave them a defined edginess few bands competed with. It had an allure to it because it was tucked away from the general public with secret identities to boot. So all you knew about them was what you primarily saw in magazines with all of these photos of them in wild poses and this maniac drooling blood. It was a brilliant marketing strategy that gave them presence. And I'm not using band names in my description because they were not well known like that yet.

Being undefined was to their advantage because it made people curious, which built the interest. You could decide for yourself what they were about without it being quantified, which gave them vastly more layers of depth. But all of that came collapsing down on them when they made that movie and essentially rebranded themselves as these one note superheroes. I know allot gets made of that, but in no way is it overstated. KISS didn't have to take their makeup off to lose their mystique. They lost it instantly when Aucoin decided to commercialize them to kids. They were homogenized and diluted down to a Saturday morning cartoon which completely stripped them of their allure to the audiences that had followed them up to that point.

And if we want to be completely honest here, the band was just along for the ride taking direction as Aucoin presented his next marketing move which had initially worked in their favor and broke them big. But like all ideas, some are hits and others are big misses. Aucoin merchandised the KISS concept which enriched his pocketbooks, but stripped the band of the image they had worked hard to establish up trough 1977. But by the end of 1978 this once dark and mysterious band was now flying on wires, with its most photographic villain (names Simmons), speaking like he was standing in a echo chamber with cartoon music playing around him. I don't think you could have purposely sabotaged a public image any worse than what KISS did to themselves here. Shockingly they kept the self-affliction going with Dynasty and the Vegas outfits, complete with superhero capes.

And for reasons that to this day seem utterly daff, they could never figure that out, as each new offering only submerged them deeper in that image rut (like the cartoon cover on Unmasked). So by the time the Elder came rolling around, KISS as a defined entity was completely opposite of what they were in 1977. They were something NOT to be taken serious. The 80's movement was upon us and anything deemed enormously popular in the 70's was ceremoniously dismissed. So the harder KISS hugged that now-compromised image, the worse it got for them. They lost the trust of both the fans and the general public at large. So they could have released the Wall and it would have bombed. Until they reformed their image, nothing was going to change how the public saw that.
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Re: What if The Elder never happened......

Post by redinthesky »

vdojaq wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:57 am
redinthesky wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 8:32 pm
jr196301 wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 7:46 pm What if? Nothing. Many assume the downfall of KISS was the Elder. The downfall of KISS was the movie and the solo albums. It was exacerbated by Dynasty and Unmasked. They were already done by the Elder but didn't realize it yet. Wouldn't have mattered if they went right to Creatures after
Unmasked. Result is the same
Kiss' downfall was due to more than one thing, but no, they weren't done before the Elder. "Dynasty" went platinum and had a huge single. I'm no fan of Unmasked but it was a big hit in certain parts of the world. These things certainly don't happen to a "done" band. With "The Elder," it was received so poorly it sold like crap and the band couldn't even do a single concert anywhere on the planet for it ("Friday's" was not a concert). No concert guarantees, no merch sales, no nothing. There is very good argument in saying 'The Elder' is indeed what made Kiss "done."

I remember those days. If you weren't a teen then, you can't understand how much Kiss was hated at that point, and thought of as nothing but a huge joke by The Elder and beyond in late 1981 and in 1982. "Kiss is dead" and "Kiss is for kids" were the two big sayings about Kiss in my school in 1982. Some people got into Creatures, but it was too late.
It's 1980, new drummer and no promoters wanted to touch them in the U.S. It's a new album of pop/soft rock(Unmasked) and they cannot tour their home country. I would say they were done.

By the time the Elder was released, they were cooked. If both Unmasked and The Elder were scrapped in favor of a COTN, HTH, type album and the "edge" was back in their styles and attitudes, they might have been able to re-establish a good portion of the fan base they lost during KMTPOTP & Dynasty. By 81 - 82 the KISS is Dead, KISS sucks, KISS is a kiddie band was already well established in the minds of the music hungry teens & young adults. Many times, you got your ass into fights for being a KISS fan at that time.
In '80 they were definitely almost done in America, but again, they were still huge in other parts of the world and IMO that's not a band that is 'done.' The Elder killed it for them pretty much just about everywhere, even if they were heading in that direction. Even in '80, Kiss probably could have played smaller venues in the bigger markets but we all know G&P refused to play smaller venues then.
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Re: What if The Elder never happened......

Post by vdojaq »

redinthesky wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 8:44 am
vdojaq wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:57 am
redinthesky wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 8:32 pm
jr196301 wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 7:46 pm What if? Nothing. Many assume the downfall of KISS was the Elder. The downfall of KISS was the movie and the solo albums. It was exacerbated by Dynasty and Unmasked. They were already done by the Elder but didn't realize it yet. Wouldn't have mattered if they went right to Creatures after
Unmasked. Result is the same
Kiss' downfall was due to more than one thing, but no, they weren't done before the Elder. "Dynasty" went platinum and had a huge single. I'm no fan of Unmasked but it was a big hit in certain parts of the world. These things certainly don't happen to a "done" band. With "The Elder," it was received so poorly it sold like crap and the band couldn't even do a single concert anywhere on the planet for it ("Friday's" was not a concert). No concert guarantees, no merch sales, no nothing. There is very good argument in saying 'The Elder' is indeed what made Kiss "done."

I remember those days. If you weren't a teen then, you can't understand how much Kiss was hated at that point, and thought of as nothing but a huge joke by The Elder and beyond in late 1981 and in 1982. "Kiss is dead" and "Kiss is for kids" were the two big sayings about Kiss in my school in 1982. Some people got into Creatures, but it was too late.
It's 1980, new drummer and no promoters wanted to touch them in the U.S. It's a new album of pop/soft rock(Unmasked) and they cannot tour their home country. I would say they were done.

By the time the Elder was released, they were cooked. If both Unmasked and The Elder were scrapped in favor of a COTN, HTH, type album and the "edge" was back in their styles and attitudes, they might have been able to re-establish a good portion of the fan base they lost during KMTPOTP & Dynasty. By 81 - 82 the KISS is Dead, KISS sucks, KISS is a kiddie band was already well established in the minds of the music hungry teens & young adults. Many times, you got your ass into fights for being a KISS fan at that time.
In '80 they were definitely almost done in America, but again, they were still huge in other parts of the world and IMO that's not a band that is 'done.' The Elder killed it for them pretty much just about everywhere, even if they were heading in that direction. Even in '80, Kiss probably could have played smaller venues in the bigger markets but we all know G&P refused to play smaller venues then.
Huge in Australia and South America? Never could survive on that. It was just too little , too late.
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Re: What if The Elder never happened......

Post by jannep17 »

I love The Elder.
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Re: What if The Elder never happened......

Post by Somebody Backstage »

The TRUE cause of the downfall of Kiss was that the fan base that carried them through early 1978 grew up, developed an interest in other bands like VH, AC/DC, Nugent, and Journey, and was alienated by what Kiss was offering.
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Re: What if The Elder never happened......

Post by Grand Classic »

redinthesky wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 8:32 pm
jr196301 wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 7:46 pm What if? Nothing. Many assume the downfall of KISS was the Elder. The downfall of KISS was the movie and the solo albums. It was exacerbated by Dynasty and Unmasked. They were already done by the Elder but didn't realize it yet. Wouldn't have mattered if they went right to Creatures after
Unmasked. Result is the same
Kiss' downfall was due to more than one thing, but no, they weren't done before the Elder. "Dynasty" went platinum and had a huge single. I'm no fan of Unmasked but it was a big hit in certain parts of the world. These things certainly don't happen to a "done" band. With "The Elder," it was received so poorly it sold like crap and the band couldn't even do a single concert anywhere on the planet for it ("Friday's" was not a concert). No concert guarantees, no merch sales, no nothing. There is very good argument in saying 'The Elder' is indeed what made Kiss "done."

I remember those days. If you weren't a teen then, you can't understand how much Kiss was hated at that point, and thought of as nothing but a huge joke by The Elder and beyond in late 1981 and in 1982. "Kiss is dead" and "Kiss is for kids" were the two big sayings about Kiss in my school in 1982. Some people got into Creatures, but it was too late.
It may have sold well to the general public due to I Was Made, but there was a KISS fan exodus when Dynasty came out. This has been well documented.

By the time Creatures came out - KISS fans wanting hard rock had already moved on to other bands. Creatures was too little too late.
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Re: What if The Elder never happened......

Post by Grand Classic »

While the What If is cool - KISS would not have gone back to Eddie Kramer. They barely respected him during RARO through Alive 2 - saying how little he had actually done and was mostly just a knob turner. Same reason why they didn't go to him for Killers/Creatures.
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Re: What if The Elder never happened......

Post by Glasgow Kiss »

redinthesky wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 8:44 am
vdojaq wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:57 am
redinthesky wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 8:32 pm
jr196301 wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 7:46 pm What if? Nothing. Many assume the downfall of KISS was the Elder. The downfall of KISS was the movie and the solo albums. It was exacerbated by Dynasty and Unmasked. They were already done by the Elder but didn't realize it yet. Wouldn't have mattered if they went right to Creatures after
Unmasked. Result is the same
Kiss' downfall was due to more than one thing, but no, they weren't done before the Elder. "Dynasty" went platinum and had a huge single. I'm no fan of Unmasked but it was a big hit in certain parts of the world. These things certainly don't happen to a "done" band. With "The Elder," it was received so poorly it sold like crap and the band couldn't even do a single concert anywhere on the planet for it ("Friday's" was not a concert). No concert guarantees, no merch sales, no nothing. There is very good argument in saying 'The Elder' is indeed what made Kiss "done."

I remember those days. If you weren't a teen then, you can't understand how much Kiss was hated at that point, and thought of as nothing but a huge joke by The Elder and beyond in late 1981 and in 1982. "Kiss is dead" and "Kiss is for kids" were the two big sayings about Kiss in my school in 1982. Some people got into Creatures, but it was too late.
It's 1980, new drummer and no promoters wanted to touch them in the U.S. It's a new album of pop/soft rock(Unmasked) and they cannot tour their home country. I would say they were done.

By the time the Elder was released, they were cooked. If both Unmasked and The Elder were scrapped in favor of a COTN, HTH, type album and the "edge" was back in their styles and attitudes, they might have been able to re-establish a good portion of the fan base they lost during KMTPOTP & Dynasty. By 81 - 82 the KISS is Dead, KISS sucks, KISS is a kiddie band was already well established in the minds of the music hungry teens & young adults. Many times, you got your ass into fights for being a KISS fan at that time.
In '80 they were definitely almost done in America, but again, they were still huge in other parts of the world and IMO that's not a band that is 'done.' The Elder killed it for them pretty much just about everywhere, even if they were heading in that direction. Even in '80, Kiss probably could have played smaller venues in the bigger markets but we all know G&P refused to play smaller venues then.
I'm not sure they were genuinely huge in other areas of the world, aside from that 12-18 month window Down Under which various Aussie posters maintain only lasted from Dynasty until shortly after they toured there. The logistics of bringing the show to Oceania also were always going to mean breaking even at best, as the production had to be dragged halfway round the world for less than ten shows.

There certainly wasn't any huge Kiss situation in the UK around that time - I was the perfect target audience being about 13 at the time, but in all honesty I was the only person in my school that was into the band...a couple of others had vaguely heard of them is all. They were capable of doing decent business on a short one-off arena tour here in 1980, but that would also have been the case with any big US band that people hadn't had a proper chance to see before at that point in time.
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Re: What if The Elder never happened......

Post by jr196301 »

redinthesky wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 8:32 pm
jr196301 wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 7:46 pm What if? Nothing. Many assume the downfall of KISS was the Elder. The downfall of KISS was the movie and the solo albums. It was exacerbated by Dynasty and Unmasked. They were already done by the Elder but didn't realize it yet. Wouldn't have mattered if they went right to Creatures after
Unmasked. Result is the same
Kiss' downfall was due to more than one thing, but no, they weren't done before the Elder. "Dynasty" went platinum and had a huge single. I'm no fan of Unmasked but it was a big hit in certain parts of the world. These things certainly don't happen to a "done" band. With "The Elder," it was received so poorly it sold like crap and the band couldn't even do a single concert anywhere on the planet for it ("Friday's" was not a concert). No concert guarantees, no merch sales, no nothing. There is very good argument in saying 'The Elder' is indeed what made Kiss "done."

I remember those days. If you weren't a teen then, you can't understand how much Kiss was hated at that point, and thought of as nothing but a huge joke by The Elder and beyond in late 1981 and in 1982. "Kiss is dead" and "Kiss is for kids" were the two big sayings about Kiss in my school in 1982. Some people got into Creatures, but it was too late.
They were a certified kiddie band by Dynasty and had to downsize their tour. Their song found an international audience but that and being a kiddie band were the nails in the coffin for rock fans. The point being The Elder didn't kill them. The solo albums and the movie mortally wounded them that they didn't realize they were bleeding out during Dynasty. Unmasked they were almost drained. You can use platinum and big tours all you like. It doesn't negate the truth of that time. The gimmick of the makeup with the lighter music and kid friendly tones killed their core rock audience by Dynasty. I was there in 1975 and I'm here today. I have every original vinyl release. I had bought the original vinyl album starting with Alive and everything forward. Prior to that, I got the first three albums from my neighbor. Halloween 1978 was the big turning point that inflicted the deathly wound (the movie). I say this as a lifetime fan who can also see this objectively because I aw the change first hand. I remember having pictures of KISS in my s school locker and being completely ridiculed by it in 1978. In 1976 and 77, it was different. Taking off the makeup was the smartest thing they ever did because when they reunited 16 years later in makeup, those things that were uncool were now revered as KISS had finally become a legacy band.
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Re: What if The Elder never happened......

Post by pepperkitty »

I wouldn’t to have had made fun of myself for being a KISS fan in 1981.
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Re: What if The Elder never happened......

Post by Australia1980 »

As much as i like certain songs on Unmasked and The Elder...

I wish they had taken a year or two off after Dynasty and put out Creatures in like 1981.

They certainly would have fared better

Creatures is better than most of the entire NWOBHM

There, I finally said it

Creatures kicks fucking ASS

But they were too late
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Re: What if The Elder never happened......

Post by IAS »

They could have done Alive 3 instead of the elder , with songs from solo albums , dinasty, unmasked , open with DRC , and end with rock n roll all nite and black diamond with Eric Carr on vocals.
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Re: What if The Elder never happened......

Post by LoveGun77 »

metalmike76 wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:42 am
Goodwilltowardsall wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:16 pm There would be dramatic outcries that KISS never do anything different, then when they did do something different (whatever form it took) there would be a tsunami of protests that it was much too different with expressions like "I want Gene to do a Beatles-type album". In general, it seems that this is a group (not everybody and perhaps not you) that tends to want to be served the same meal over & over with minimal variation & does not care for musical innovation (notice large degree of disdain for things like the Elder, initial disco move, COS, ballads, solo albums that stray from the tried and true KISS formula). It may be helpful for KISS to put out a warning/grading system regarding the degree of deviation from the classic KISS formula and put out multiple versions of product to accommodate fans' preferences for variation. It serves no purpose for them to put out anything new.
I have no problem with their various deviations from the norm. I think that’s what makes being a KISS fun. Look at bands like AC/DC. Never really changed the sound or image very much...which is commendable....but definitely boring
It couldn't have been too boring,as the sellout shows and huge album sales would show.
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Re: What if The Elder never happened......

Post by LoveGun77 »

And doing something different doesn't mean it's good either. COS was a forced unKisslike album that wasn't well received. The Elder was a very poorly received album at the time,and for a long time. Many say they love it now,but believe me, I was a teen when it came out and it tanked BIG time. The fans flocked away in record numbers.
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Re: What if The Elder never happened......

Post by TheKISSProject7312 »

sneed78 wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:17 pm But it’s fun to fantasize:[/color]

Image
Man, Gene looks wicked cool with the big hair and the Elder outfit.
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Re: What if The Elder never happened......

Post by sneed78 »

TheKISSProject7312 wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:23 am
sneed78 wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:17 pm But it’s fun to fantasize:[/color]

Image
Man, Gene looks wicked cool with the big hair and the Elder outfit.
Yeah the big hair makes the streamlined costumes look even cooler...
❤️💙💜🧡
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Re: What if The Elder never happened......

Post by The Barron »

I think the Elder is a brilliant album. But I just think the timing was wrong. We'll never know, of course, but I bet if it were released today it would get a much more positive reception. I have no problems with bands doing something completely different, like the Elder. But again, the timing was just all wrong for it, IMO.
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Re: What if The Elder never happened......

Post by metalmike76 »

Australia1980 wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 9:21 pm As much as i like certain songs on Unmasked and The Elder...

I wish they had taken a year or two off after Dynasty and put out Creatures in like 1981.

They certainly would have fared better

Creatures is better than most of the entire NWOBHM

There, I finally said it

Creatures kicks fucking ASS

But they were too late
Creatures is so nasty....Eric and Gene make it for me🤘
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Re: What if The Elder never happened......

Post by Bruce »

Kissoff wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:39 pm Then I wouldn't have ridden my bike in the rain at night to Music Coop to buy it with my money from working at McDonalds
I wouldn't even walk down to the end of the block i live on in the most beautiful weather, for that. But ... I am fond of The Elder. Its charming in a goofy way. Had it not existed, one cant assume the best outcome, after. Ace still had no say with Pete gone. Some other gimmickery would have filled the void.
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Re: What if The Elder never happened......

Post by kenn.ace »

One of the worst albums ever recorded would have never seen the light of day, and I would be about 10 dollars richer.
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Re: What if The Elder never happened......

Post by Australia1980 »

metalmike76 wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:25 pm
Australia1980 wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 9:21 pm As much as i like certain songs on Unmasked and The Elder...

I wish they had taken a year or two off after Dynasty and put out Creatures in like 1981.

They certainly would have fared better

Creatures is better than most of the entire NWOBHM

There, I finally said it

Creatures kicks fucking ASS

But they were too late
Creatures is so nasty....Eric and Gene make it for me🤘
Yeah Creatures is one of their very best, and yeah Gene and Eric are the stars of that show
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Re: What if The Elder never happened......

Post by Mr. Kiss »

.... then it wouldn't have been released. :idea: ... :P

Kidding aside, I liked it then and I like it now.

The problem is that they were desperately trying to be something they weren't musically. Be that as it may, some good songs still emerged from it. Three stars. :|
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Re: What if The Elder never happened......

Post by richardsimmons »

10% of my brain might miss I & The Oath.

90% of my brain wouldn’t care.
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Re: What if The Elder never happened......

Post by gene therapist »

Gene wouldn't downplay his/their musical ability as much as he currently does. The failed attempt to gain critical recognition obviously left a deep scar and probably fueled his desire to pursue an acting career. It's easier for Gene to haughtily declare he "doesn't give a rat's ass" about the music than to admit that he actually did care at one point.
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Re: What if The Elder never happened......

Post by dinosaur sr. »

jr196301 wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 7:46 pm What if? Nothing. Many assume the downfall of KISS was the Elder. The downfall of KISS was the movie and the solo albums. It was exacerbated by Dynasty and Unmasked. They were already done by the Elder but didn't realize it yet. Wouldn't have mattered if they went right to Creatures after
Unmasked. Result is the same
This. Creatures is an upper echelon album and it was still pretty much dead on arrival. The general public just didn't care about Kiss in the early '80s.
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Re: What if The Elder never happened......

Post by Much Too Soon »

Their costumes were 💩 Their boots were 🤢 Their hair was 🤮

Who the hell thought this was a good idea? I don’t think it was the music at all. Just a massive let down visually I’m steps fro Dynasty and the colors… Unmasked and the cartoon cover… I… THIS???
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Re: What if The Elder never happened......

Post by Bruce »

The Barron wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:30 am We'll never know, of course, but I bet if it were released today it would get a much more positive reception.
Agreed! Post Game of Thrones, Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings and all the rest of it, The Elder would be much more relatable to the Renaissance Fair and video game crowd. But even when the timing was right, nothing was done to re-release it. Nobody in that crowd has ever heard of it, or will. Which is a shame, because its right up their alley.

I am a great fan of Shakespeare and medieval history. But most of that fantasy stuff goes right by me. Its hard for me to relate to, when you've got some elderly bastard slaying dragons with his cane. The art nouveau-inspired, rustic settings are exceedingly charming, though. But there's a ready-made audience for The Elder, already, and -- still -- nothing's been done about it.
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Re: What if The Elder never happened......

Post by Glasgow Kiss »

Bruce wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 1:40 am
The Barron wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:30 am We'll never know, of course, but I bet if it were released today it would get a much more positive reception.
Agreed! Post Game of Thrones, Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings and all the rest of it, The Elder would be much more relatable to the Renaissance Fair and video game crowd. But even when the timing was right, nothing was done to re-release it. Nobody in that crowd has ever heard of it, or will. Which is a shame, because its right up their alley.

I am a great fan of Shakespeare and medieval history. But most of that fantasy stuff goes right by me. Its hard for me to relate to, when you've got some elderly bastard slaying dragons with his cane. The art nouveau-inspired, rustic settings are exceedingly charming, though. But there's a ready-made audience for The Elder, already, and -- still -- nothing's been done about it.
It probably would have been custom-made for that crowd - I'd have paid money to see someone LARPing as Mr Blackwell. I just wish the story had been fleshed out a good bit more...as it stands it's just a standard bildungsroman about The Boy becoming The Man.

That being said, the field of fantasy heavily draws on historical themes...even Game of Thrones is in many ways merely a retelling of the Wars of the Roses with added dragons, featuring a conflict between the houses of Lannister (Lancaster) and Stark (York). Translating it back into English medieval history also probably means my lot are the wildlings on the other side of the wall, but I'm okay with that!
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Re: What if The Elder never happened......

Post by Bruce »

You've got a point!

The Elder's shortcomings mainly revolve around the lack of a cohesive narrative and Stanley's singing like a eunuch throughout much of it. Otherwise, there's just enough there to spin your imagination. The datedness of it also adds to the feel of a bygone era ... the mystique of it, if you like.

Gene, especially, knows that The Elder could be marketed in such a way to get the Dungeons & Dragons people onboard for it. But he doesn't, because he's not willing to chance getting burned twice. That, and in Gene's mind, nobody buys music, anymore. Or, whatever. So, The Elder being shopped around to the cosplayers ain't ever gonna happen.