So maybe it really doesn't matter who is in the band?

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So maybe it really doesn't matter who is in the band?

Post by FlyingInA747 »

So I lost track of Judas Priest's later catalog over the years. But last week I played -for pretty much the first time, the most recent 4 albums. One album sucked (Nostradamus) and the other 3 were really, really good. Those 3 albums were better than Turbo and Ram It Down and all 3 sounded more like what I wanted the follow up to "British Steel" to sound like way back in the day. (Point of Entry isn't a bad album, but it was a real disappointment coming off the masterpiece that was British Steel).

Now I don't know all that much about what's going on in the band. I know KK has left, but I don't know what is the last album that he is on. And I think something happened with the drummer and some sort of scandal. But I don't know if that's the drummer from Painkiller, who had that great drum into on the title track. So I'm really not too sure exactly who is in the band. But, the interesting thing is, the music sounds like Judas Priest. Again, it sounds more like Priest than some of the classic era material does.

And that got me to thinking about other "things" that don't have the same "line-up". Like when you go to Disneyland today, none of the people are there from when you were 5. Many of the rides are different. And yet, it's still Disneyland. Your neighborhood McDonald's doesn't have the same staff as when you were a teenager, but when you go there, you know you're at McDonalds. I watch a tv show called Blue Bloods. It's been on for the past 11 years. I don't know if the original writers are still there, or if there are new writers producing the show who are forced to dress like the previous writers ( :P ). But the show still feels like Blue Bloods.

So why should a rock band be held in such a different regard? If KISS today sounds like KISS, then maybe it doesn't really matter who's on the albums? Psycho Circus, Hell or Hallelujah and Say Yeah sound more like KISS than anything on the Elder does. "My" KISS is the Love Gun album and Side IV of Alive II. Truth be told, those 3 new era songs sound more like "my" KISS than anything on Dynasty or Unmasked does. So maybe it wouldn't be such a bad thing if we just listened to the albums and didn't pay all that much attention to who is on them.

Just a thought.
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Re: So maybe it really doesn't matter who is in the band?

Post by So Cruel »

For me it’s about who created the music. If I wanted to see Kiss songs played by others I’d rather just go to see a cover band.
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Re: So maybe it really doesn't matter who is in the band?

Post by Brewer »

Yeah doesn’t matter. Foreigner have a bunch of nobodies in it, Journey has a bunch of nobodies in it, Whitesnake has a bunch of nobodies in it. Priest is mostly nobodies now. Guns is mostly nobodies. Cheap Trick and the Eagles have sons in the band. Van Halen had a son in it for ten years. ZZ Top is touring now with a roadie in a fake beard. KISS can do it too, it’s half nobodies as it is. They won’t be playing the large venues they are now without Gene (note I said Gene, not Paul) but they will still be able to tour. Concerts aren’t for fans anymore, it’s for casuals.
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Re: So maybe it really doesn't matter who is in the band?

Post by Grand Classic »

Brewer wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:29 pm Yeah doesn’t matter. Foreigner have a bunch of nobodies in it, Journey has a bunch of nobodies in it, Whitesnake has a bunch of nobodies in it. Priest is mostly nobodies now. Guns is mostly nobodies. Cheap Trick and the Eagles have sons in the band. Van Halen had a son in it for ten years. ZZ Top is touring now with a roadie in a fake beard. KISS can do it too, it’s half nobodies as it is. They won’t be playing the large venues they are now without Gene (note I said Gene, not Paul) but they will still be able to tour. Concerts aren’t for fans anymore, it’s for casuals.
To be fair with Whitesnake - that has always really been just the David Coverdale band with whatever top musicians he wants to hire at the moment. WS was never a band in the traditional sense like the other ones you mentioned.
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Re: So maybe it really doesn't matter who is in the band?

Post by Brewer »

Not always true. Yeah there was a revolving door especially after 87 but Jon Lord and Micky Moody and Bernie Marsden were a massive part of it. Bernie had several lead vocals on the albums. I jumped ship when Doug Aldrich left.
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Re: So maybe it really doesn't matter who is in the band?

Post by ZachAttack »

Well yeah if Kiss made something that sounded like Revenge or COTN then I wouldn't care...but their last 2 albums are the worst they've ever done
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Re: So maybe it really doesn't matter who is in the band?

Post by TwistedTaste »

FlyingInA747 wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:23 pm So I lost track of Judas Priest's later catalog over the years. But last week I played -for pretty much the first time, the most recent 4 albums. One album sucked (Nostradamus) and the other 3 were really, really good. Those 3 albums were better than Turbo and Ram It Down and all 3 sounded more like what I wanted the follow up to "British Steel" to sound like way back in the day. (Point of Entry isn't a bad album, but it was a real disappointment coming off the masterpiece that was British Steel).

Now I don't know all that much about what's going on in the band. I know KK has left, but I don't know what is the last album that he is on. And I think something happened with the drummer and some sort of scandal. But I don't know if that's the drummer from Painkiller, who had that great drum into on the title track. So I'm really not too sure exactly who is in the band. But, the interesting thing is, the music sounds like Judas Priest. Again, it sounds more like Priest than some of the classic era material does.

And that got me to thinking about other "things" that don't have the same "line-up". Like when you go to Disneyland today, none of the people are there from when you were 5. Many of the rides are different. And yet, it's still Disneyland. Your neighborhood McDonald's doesn't have the same staff as when you were a teenager, but when you go there, you know you're at McDonalds. I watch a tv show called Blue Bloods. It's been on for the past 11 years. I don't know if the original writers are still there, or if there are new writers producing the show who are forced to dress like the previous writers ( :P ). But the show still feels like Blue Bloods.

So why should a rock band be held in such a different regard? If KISS today sounds like KISS, then maybe it doesn't really matter who's on the albums? Psycho Circus, Hell or Hallelujah and Say Yeah sound more like KISS than anything on the Elder does. "My" KISS is the Love Gun album and Side IV of Alive II. Truth be told, those 3 new era songs sound more like "my" KISS than anything on Dynasty or Unmasked does. So maybe it wouldn't be such a bad thing if we just listened to the albums and didn't pay all that much attention to who is on them.

Just a thought.
You stay in fantasy land, I’ll take Kiss’ 70’s catalog thank you :D
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Re: So maybe it really doesn't matter who is in the band?

Post by Brewer »

That’s irrelevant to the discussion. Their 70s catalogue doesn’t change regardless of who is in the touring lineup.
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Re: So maybe it really doesn't matter who is in the band?

Post by TwistedTaste »

Brewer wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:50 pm That’s irrelevant to the discussion. Their 70s catalogue doesn’t change regardless of who is in the touring lineup.
What the hell does the touring lineup have to do with the recorded music?
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Re: So maybe it really doesn't matter who is in the band?

Post by Grand Classic »

Brewer wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:45 pm Not always true. Yeah there was a revolving door especially after 87 but Jon Lord and Micky Moody and Bernie Marsden were a massive part of it. Bernie had several lead vocals on the albums. I jumped ship when Doug Aldrich left.
Yes they were name people and some had more input than others - but Marsden and Moody and Lord had zero power in WS. They were all people hired for his band.
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Re: So maybe it really doesn't matter who is in the band?

Post by spacecat2500 »

Scott Travis has been the JP drummer since Painkiller. KK’s last album was Nostradamus. Plus there were a couple live albums and DVDS in there as well.
Richie Faulkner took KK’s place for Redeemer Of Souls and the incredible Firepower album.
The Firepower Tour saw co-producer Andy Sneep replacing Glen Tipton for the live shows due to his Parkinson’s disease.
So as far as studio albums what you heard wasn’t really much different than most previous Priest albums.
And in the case of Firepower they brought back long time producer Tom Allom. So with the exception of Redeemer and Firepower it’s pretty much the original classic lineup.
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Re: So maybe it really doesn't matter who is in the band?

Post by torgotheme »

If Sonic Poop and Dumpster were strong albums, one could make this argument. But they ain't. They're attempts to play it safe and get "back to basics" to justify having Eric and Tommy in the originals' makeup.

KISS '73-'79:
25E584A9-DCD7-4D3F-B147-94464B3AC9E8.jpeg
KISS '04-'21:
6833F84F-2E9A-4E69-BA8E-1CCE229E64A2.jpeg
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Re: So maybe it really doesn't matter who is in the band?

Post by TwistedTaste »

torgotheme wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:39 pm“Dumpster”
Oh man that’s great :D
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Re: So maybe it really doesn't matter who is in the band?

Post by Mackemkiss »

Meh. I get the touring idea - if you're a fan of 'stage shows' or musicals then yeah, maybe it doesn't matter too much. But bands are made up of actual people and the bond I feel and the talent I admire comes from those specific people - not from a concept.
So I'm a huge fan of Prince. He's now dead. So if the Prince estate allowed someone who looked a bit like him and sounded a bit like him to do shows as 'Prince' I wouldn't be that interested as it's not him.

And that's before we get to the recordings.
I think for credibility of the bands USP has been a special vocalist like Halford or whoever then you can shape a band around him and - if the music is good-intentioned and in the band style, then yeah - Why wouldn't people enjoy it? But if it's a cynical cash grab and lane and uninspired maybe they won't.

These arguments always come down to the same thing - KISS don't really care about music that much. They were excited by it in the 60s and early 70s but those days are.long gone.
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Re: So maybe it really doesn't matter who is in the band?

Post by Kissoff »

spacecat2500 wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:58 pm Scott Travis has been the JP drummer since Painkiller. KK’s last album was Nostradamus. Plus there were a couple live albums and DVDS in there as well.
Richie Faulkner took KK’s place for Redeemer Of Souls and the incredible Firepower album.
The Firepower Tour saw co-producer Andy Sneep replacing Glen Tipton for the live shows due to his Parkinson’s disease.
So as far as studio albums what you heard wasn’t really much different than most previous Priest albums.
And in the case of Firepower they brought back long time producer Tom Allom. So with the exception of Redeemer and Firepower it’s pretty much the original classic lineup.
I love me some Scott Travis!!!
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Re: So maybe it really doesn't matter who is in the band?

Post by redinthesky »

FlyingInA747 wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:23 pm

And that got me to thinking about other "things" that don't have the same "line-up". Like when you go to Disneyland today, none of the people are there from when you were 5. Many of the rides are different. And yet, it's still Disneyland. Your neighborhood McDonald's doesn't have the same staff as when you were a teenager, but when you go there, you know you're at McDonalds.

This is one of the flat-out strangest defenses of not just the current Kiss lineup, but many old band's current lineups. Someone needs to call Eddie Trunk with the "McDonald's" explanation. :)

I gotta go with what So Cruel said. It's about who created the music. Priest, I'd never see Priest without KK and Tipton. If I did, I'd hear a band playing the songs and Halford singing, but it's not Priest to me. KK and Tipton ARE the Priest sound. You want to hear Foreigner songs, you go see that cover band named Foreigner. And now Journey is once again less than half classic lineup. And which LA Guns does one see? It's comical.

I understand bands want to keep going, but that doesn't make it less of a farce in some cases.
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Re: So maybe it really doesn't matter who is in the band?

Post by jannep17 »

I never cared much for Judas Priest, so I don't know.
I have of course heard some of the classic albums from the 70's and 80's and they sound okay, but don't really grab my attention, except for the odd track here and there (Riding On The Wind is my Priest favorite).

But the analogy is still strange, since Sonic Boom and Monster are pale copies to what Kiss did in their heyday.
So I'll say it does indeed matter who is in the band.
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Re: So maybe it really doesn't matter who is in the band?

Post by kenn.ace »

Brewer wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:50 pm That’s irrelevant to the discussion. Their 70s catalogue doesn’t change regardless of who is in the touring lineup.
Thank goodness they have not re-recorded them and removed Ace and Peter. Some people do that.
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Re: So maybe it really doesn't matter who is in the band?

Post by Tommyr »

It matters to me. How the fuck can a band with only 1 original member go on without feeling phony as hell? Sorry but it's just not the same feel and vibe folks without the original members. Quit and form a NEW band instead. Otherwise it's pretty much phony. Like current Kiss.
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Re: So maybe it really doesn't matter who is in the band?

Post by Bruce »

I'm cool with it.
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Re: So maybe it really doesn't matter who is in the band?

Post by lespaul »

It matters to me .
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Re: So maybe it really doesn't matter who is in the band?

Post by Brewer »

Yeah it doesn’t matter to you, so you don’t go. Neither do I. But we’re not most people. Most people don’t know anything about bands now, they remember the hits and they go to shows for a good time and to brag about going to an event on social media like it makes them some kind of VIP that they can afford a $100 ticket. Who is in the band now or who was in the band then is irrelevant.
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Re: So maybe it really doesn't matter who is in the band?

Post by Destroyer72 »

Thing is, in the 70s, KISS pushed the idea of the 4 individual members. The 4 personas. The 4 solo albums, etc..

They made people think about KISS that way. Moreso than other bands. Judas Priest had revolving drummers for years. I mean it all just depends on the band.

With KISS, it matters.
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Re: So maybe it really doesn't matter who is in the band?

Post by wjs296 »

There is always a difference in the sound and dynamics when a band member changes. Think about how the sound changed when Peter was out of the band and then Ace too. Each musician brings a unique style to the mix. For the casual fans, who want to have a few beers and hear the hits it might be fine to have a few replacements on board. There is nothing wrong with them enjoying it. I think the difference is how the bands sell the line up change. There are many bands out there with 1 or two original members and they keep going on tour and releasing new music. Music is a business and they want to earn an income and they have a right to that.
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Re: So maybe it really doesn't matter who is in the band?

Post by gene therapist »

FlyingInA747 wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:23 pm If KISS today sounds like KISS
The problem is, Kiss haven't sounded like Kiss in more than a decade because of Paul's inability to sing.
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Re: So maybe it really doesn't matter who is in the band?

Post by vinniestkulick »

big difference between developing and perfecting a band's sound...
and aping it, long after it's been established and can be studied by producer's and wanna be players (on record).
even on stage, all of these bands w/generic member fill ins (even family) kind of make their stand ins dress like the former guy(s) whose 'look' had been established.
at least kiss hasn't started loading up the band with their kids, or roadies (YET! apart from one gig...)
Both TT and ES had established careers.
I'm far more offended, now, by the "bring your child to work" ethics of some bands. it started w Jason Bonham. at least Robert Plant never seemed to want to go along with it, completely.
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Re: So maybe it really doesn't matter who is in the band?

Post by Glasgow Kiss »

It comes down to that old thought experiment: You have a hammer. After a year, you replace the head. After another year, you replace the handle. Is it still the same hammer?

Priest are a weird one in that they seem to have retained their sound even with all the line-up changes. They had a very well-defined sound to start with I suppose - certainly post 1980, and it's perhaps easier to slot in replacement members where they know exactly what idiom to play in.

Tipton and Downing were one of the best and most readily-identifiable twin guitar partnerships in rock, but it's no secret they didn't have much time for each other on a personal level and things deteriorated to the point where KK sent in a resignation letter which he quickly tried to rescind only to be told: "Nope - you've left!"

As an aside, I (literally) bumped into Glenn the last time they played here. Their hotel was just along from my office and while I was out for lunch he stepped off the bus without looking right into my path. I nearly sent him flying, and TBH got a bit of a shock when I saw how small, frail and unwell he looked.
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Re: So maybe it really doesn't matter who is in the band?

Post by txmikey »

I'd say it comes down to individual decision of whether the essence of a band still comes through.

Talking about Priest, Halford has always been THE most important piece for me. Best hard rock/metal vocalist ever IMO. He still sings well (though I wish he didn't have to rely on the teleprompter so much) and the band around him still plays well, so I still go. Travis has been in the band over 30 years. Faulkner's been there over 10 years and is a far better player than KK; don't miss him one bit. Glenn was the one I hated to lose and while I'm still not crazy about Andy Sneap, he does ok. I get people not going because not enough original members remain, but if you want to call current Priest a cover band, all I can say is that they are a DAMN good one!
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Re: So maybe it really doesn't matter who is in the band?

Post by ypke »

Tommyr wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 2:37 pm It matters to me. How the fuck can a band with only 1 original member go on without feeling phony as hell? Sorry but it's just not the same feel and vibe folks without the original members. Quit and form a NEW band instead. Otherwise it's pretty much phony. Like current Kiss.
I'm okay with that. Bands change, people change, it's not a marriage, it's a business. When business is good it means songs from the heart that get you excited.
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Re: So maybe it really doesn't matter who is in the band?

Post by RockSoldier52 »

Who is playing the music 100% matters. Most fans would prefer to see Ace slopping up a few notes here and there over a perfect Tommy performance. Most fans would take a reserved Peter performance over Eric constantly ripping fills all over the tracks in perfect time. People matter.
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Re: So maybe it really doesn't matter who is in the band?

Post by sugardaddy »

Point of Entry is a GREAT album.