How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by Revenge 92 »

B5Erik wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:08 pm Honestly, Gene, Paul, and Bill Aucoin saw KISS as having elevated themselves ABOVE that limited market.

In their arrogance, they believed that KISS had crossed over into the broader market, and were playing to that market. "I Was Made For Lovin You," only cemented that belief. They didn't realize that fans of Top 40 radio bought singles, and SOME albums, WITHOUT any loyalty or attachment to those artists. When Shandi failed to hit the Top 40 in the U.S. the way they expected, the album tanked.
Good point.

In their, and their manegement's, minds they were SuperKiss. Just simple rock wasn't 'grand' enough for them anymore. They wanted to include more people and sell more records and tickets. They didn't realized they were burning themselves up in a short time with that.
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by LordThurisaz »

Glasgow Kiss wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:00 am
LordThurisaz wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:06 pm
spacedemon wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:58 pm KISS should've heeded what Punk Rock had done to the well established hard rock bands of their era. That should've been their "Oh shit!" moment. Punk Rock/New Wave made bands like KISS look and sound like dinosaurs. Other Metal bands took their cue from the Punk scene and that ended up giving birth to NWOBHM and bands like Motley Crew, Slayer, Metallica. By the time KISS tried to go with a Punk/New Wave look with The Elder and then a Heavy Metal thunder sound with COTN, The game was over.
I think NWOBHM took more cues from Stained Class by Judas Priest and early Motorhead than punk. A lot of them disliked punk.
Yeah, there's always been this misconception that the NWOBHM was "heavy metal influenced by punk" but nothing could have been further from the truth. The only influence those bands took from punk was the DIY ethos of self-releasing singles (often with cheap to non-existent production values) and networking with other bands on a similar level to set up gigs in other areas of the country. I lived through it, and if you'd told your average NWOBHM band they sounded like a punk band you'd have probably have ended up with a burst mouth :)

A lot of "N"WOBHM bands looked and sounded a little bit dated by 1979 - I can remember going to see the likes of Witchfynde and thinking they looked like a squad of hippies with suede fringed jackets and flared jeans!
That's what I've always heard as well, but the punk influencing metal myth persists.
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by Anomaly »

Think Lemmy might've been the only one out of the NWOBHM groups that didn't really mind the punk bands. I don't think he minded the comparisons either.
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by DonnaDixon »

Grand Classic wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 5:44 pm
DonnaDixon wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 5:30 pm I think you're right. And what this essentially means is that people were initially very excited about Dynasty, IWMFLY, the new colorful costumes, etc. But then very quickly---like, just a matter of weeks---got burned out on it and realized they didn't like that stuff after all. Hence a bust of a tour, and the failure of Unmasked.
That is absolutely what happened. Many KISS fans/some hard rock fans bought the album right out of the gate as would be expected for any new KISS album.

They listened, maybe tried to force themselves to like it because hey it's new car smell KISS and the vast majority of people after a few spins finally had to ask themselves: what is this shit?

Then the exodus happened.
That does seem to make the most sense, given that IWMFLY (allegedly) was an actual fairly high ranking chart hit on the U.S. and even higher elsewhere (allegedly), and Dynasty supposedly sold 2-3 million units worldwide.

Why would people support a song that they don't like and buy an album that they don't like?

Well, you usually don't know if you like an album until you buy it, so I guess everyone bought it, and about half were so disenchanted that they decided to move on to other bands.
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by Glasgow Kiss »

Anomaly wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 8:57 am Think Lemmy might've been the only one out of the NWOBHM groups that didn't really mind the punk bands. I don't think he minded the comparisons either.
He was certainly friends with the guys from The Damned, but I think his acquaintance with others might have just been down to them using the same dealers as him!

That's another of the common misconceptions of that era though - Motorhead were never a NWOBHM band. Lemmy had been in Hawkwind previously and Motorhead had been going since mid-1975, so they weren't a new band by any stretch of the imagination, and were well-established by the time the NWOBHM came along...they had three or four albums out and were filling 2-3000 seat venues when the likes of Maiden were still playing pubs. Exactly the same with Priest, who also get lumped in with the movement but who were on their fourth or fifth album and doing good business on the same circuit.
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by jannep17 »

Anomaly wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 8:57 am Think Lemmy might've been the only one out of the NWOBHM groups that didn't really mind the punk bands. I don't think he minded the comparisons either.
Lemmy recognized that both the punk bands and Motörhead just played rock'n'roll. Motörhead were never heavy metal.
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by CStomp1 »

jannep17 wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:08 am
Anomaly wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 8:57 am Think Lemmy might've been the only one out of the NWOBHM groups that didn't really mind the punk bands. I don't think he minded the comparisons either.
Lemmy recognized that both the punk bands and Motörhead just played rock'n'roll. Motörhead were never heavy metal.
Didn't Iron Maiden's debut have some shades of punk? In fact original singer Paul Di'Anno started in a punk band. Some of that early Maiden stuff has tinges of punk sprinkled in it.
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by LordThurisaz »

CStomp1 wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 12:17 pm Didn't Iron Maiden's debut have some shades of punk? In fact original singer Paul Di'Anno started in a punk band. Some of that early Maiden stuff has tinges of punk sprinkled in it.
They disliked the comparison, and disagree.
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by Anomaly »

I think the production of Maiden's debut was a big part of the punk label some like throwing at it. Songwriting on it certainly isn't punk.
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by acefan1975 »

If KISS could have made Creatures of the Night in 1979 their path may have been greatly altered.
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by AlmostRockingHuman »

they didnt need to get heavier, they needed to stay true to there roots, not the band hopping,
they (paul) didnt have trust in there band I think
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by DonnaDixon »

AlmostRockingHuman wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 1:36 pm they didnt need to get heavier, they needed to stay true to there roots, not the band hopping,
they (paul) didnt have trust in there band I think
Yep, just another interesting, solid rocker, like the first six, A2S4, AF78, and PS78.
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by Hi I'm Witz »

Wiped Out 78 wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:25 am Yeah, if you look at all the great hard rock records that came out in 1980:

AC/DC - Back In Black
Ozzy - Blizzard Of Ozz
Black Sabbath - Heaven & Hell
Van Halen - Women & Children First
Judas Priest - British Steel
Iron Maiden - s/t

And KISS gives us "Unmasked". That was pretty much where I got off the bus.
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by Wet Willie »

Grand Classic wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 9:29 pm
Wet Willie wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 9:18 pm By the end of the 70's the charts were heaving with pop and disco singles. Only a hand full of rock bands were selling at the time.

Van Halen were hardly setting the charts on fire - that happened after they released a pop single called "Jump"...
You do realize that the Van Halen debut has gone 10X platinum and some guy named Eddie in the band changed guitar playing forever. Paul and Gene would kill kittens for the sales that VH got before 1984 came along with Jump.
Following the success of early 80s Van Halen, people revisited the earlier albums. The debut album sold more in the 80s than at the time of the original release. On the timeline of the late 70s, pop and disco ruled the charts...
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by In the Suds »

Certified platinum on October 10, 1978


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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by Wet Willie »

Correct...

Platinum in 1978 - then 5 x platinum in 1984, and 10 x platinum in 1996

This does not mean 10 x Platinum in 1978 or even 10 x platinum before 1984...!!
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by Grand Classic »

Wet Willie wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:21 pm Correct...

Platinum in 1978 - then 5 x platinum in 1984, and 10 x platinum in 1996

This does not mean 10 x Platinum in 1978 or even 10 x platinum before 1984...!!
The point is platinum for a new band is fantastic and that continued with each release. Again, KISS would kill for Van Halen's sales and musical respect for that matter.
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by In the Suds »

Wet Willie wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:21 pm Correct...

Platinum in 1978 - then 5 x platinum in 1984, and 10 x platinum in 1996

This does not mean 10 x Platinum in 1978 or even 10 x platinum before 1984...!!
No one said it did. You said they weren't selling records until Jump.
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by nightwingken »

TwistedTaste wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 6:24 am
nightwingken wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 10:16 pm KISS had outlived its freshness date.
Nothing was going to change that
Same with Cooper around the same time.
Cooper was changing styles left and right too.

Kiss could have stayed true to themselves and never experienced any significant drops in popularity but Paul & Gene were too ignorant to realize this
KISS could have put out Creatures (instead of Dynasty), it would not have helped, at that point people were doing what KISS was aiming for, they were now old.
I remember how silly Alice looked and then boom someone like Billy Idol came and ate his lunch.

KISS was on their way out.
And, despite the thinking in the Biokiss special, it was not new make up designs, KISS burned out.
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by jkiss »

nightwingken wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:23 pm
TwistedTaste wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 6:24 am
nightwingken wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 10:16 pm KISS had outlived its freshness date.
Nothing was going to change that
Same with Cooper around the same time.
Cooper was changing styles left and right too.

Kiss could have stayed true to themselves and never experienced any significant drops in popularity but Paul & Gene were too ignorant to realize this
KISS could have put out Creatures (instead of Dynasty), it would not have helped, at that point people were doing what KISS was aiming for, they were now old.
I remember how silly Alice looked and then boom someone like Billy Idol came and ate his lunch.

KISS was on their way out.
And, despite the thinking in the Biokiss special, it was not new make up designs, KISS burned out.
Thanks to the landmark record deal PolyGram awarded & along with a fiercely loyal army of former 'KISS kids'; the band that was constantly on their way out, always managed to stay in. And not always in the best light, but certainly nobody could ever get rid of 'em.

The only time during the '80's, I thought it wasn't possibly 'the end or their final album' was "Animalize". And not because I think overly highly of it all, either.

And in 2021, KISS is sitting on millions-upon-millions of dollars & have been for quite some time now.

Perhaps P&G can grow money on trees, even. 💰🌳🧙

🤔
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by TwistedTaste »

jkiss wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:53 am
nightwingken wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:23 pm
TwistedTaste wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 6:24 am
nightwingken wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 10:16 pm KISS had outlived its freshness date.
Nothing was going to change that
Same with Cooper around the same time.
Cooper was changing styles left and right too.

Kiss could have stayed true to themselves and never experienced any significant drops in popularity but Paul & Gene were too ignorant to realize this
KISS could have put out Creatures (instead of Dynasty), it would not have helped, at that point people were doing what KISS was aiming for, they were now old.
I remember how silly Alice looked and then boom someone like Billy Idol came and ate his lunch.

KISS was on their way out.
And, despite the thinking in the Biokiss special, it was not new make up designs, KISS burned out.
Thanks to the landmark record deal PolyGram awarded & along with a fiercely loyal army of former 'KISS kids'; the band that was constantly on their way out, always managed to stay in. And not always in the best light, but certainly nobody could ever get rid of 'em.

Then only time during the '80's, I thought it wasn't possibly 'the end or their final album' was "Animalize". And not because I think overly highly of it all, either.

And in 2021, KISS is sitting on millions-upon-millions of dollars & have been for quite some time now.

Perhaps P&G can grow money on trees, even. 💰🌳🧙

🤔
Gene & Paul got saved by the MTV generation in the 80’s - where every 1/2 assed band got airplay and a certain level of success. Then MTV went away and so did Kiss. They died because they weren’t unique, they were just like all the bands Paul was copying.

Then Ace & Peter helped bring the band back from the dead.

In hindsight, if Kiss stayed true to their original - SUCCESSFUL - sound, & kept the original band together - they could have went on forever as a success. Burned out or not. They had a unique, successful formula/brand. But they really destroyed it. And the last 20 years they’ve just crapped on it imo
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by jkiss »

TwistedTaste wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:30 am
jkiss wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:53 am
nightwingken wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:23 pm
TwistedTaste wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 6:24 am

Cooper was changing styles left and right too.

Kiss could have stayed true to themselves and never experienced any significant drops in popularity but Paul & Gene were too ignorant to realize this
KISS could have put out Creatures (instead of Dynasty), it would not have helped, at that point people were doing what KISS was aiming for, they were now old.
I remember how silly Alice looked and then boom someone like Billy Idol came and ate his lunch.

KISS was on their way out.
And, despite the thinking in the Biokiss special, it was not new make up designs, KISS burned out.
Thanks to the landmark record deal PolyGram awarded & along with a fiercely loyal army of former 'KISS kids'; the band that was constantly on their way out, always managed to stay in. And not always in the best light, but certainly nobody could ever get rid of 'em.

Then only time during the '80's, I thought it wasn't possibly 'the end or their final album' was "Animalize". And not because I think overly highly of it all, either.

And in 2021, KISS is sitting on millions-upon-millions of dollars & have been for quite some time now.

Perhaps P&G can grow money on trees, even. 💰🌳🧙

🤔
Gene & Paul got saved by the MTV generation in the 80’s - where every 1/2 assed band got airplay and a certain level of success. Then MTV went away and so did Kiss. They died because they weren’t unique, they were just like all the bands Paul was copying.

Then Ace & Peter helped bring the band back from the dead.

In hindsight, if Kiss stayed true to their original - SUCCESSFUL - sound, & kept the original band together - they could have went on forever as a success. Burned out or not. They had a unique, successful formula/brand. But they really destroyed it. And the last 20 years they’ve just crapped on it imo
Yes & not all of us may appreciate how they went about it, but like they claim, "WE WON!" 💰

I checked-out in 1992 (or after Eric passed away).
I checked-back in 1996, but I got easily lured back-out for "The Bad Boys of KISS" (circa '95).
I checked-out in 2000.
I checked-back in 2018, but I realize I'm probably still miffed about a few things. 😤

And even if I was to go to a EOTR show, I don't know how pleased I really would be to see P&G (on their own), again. I might come to the full realization, I just don't like these guys, anymore (period).

It wouldn't be closure, just like it wasn't when Gene was losing his temper at my final "Farewell Tour" show (circa 2000). I actually don't what would be closure of KISS for me.

And obviously, I can totally forget any 're-reunion'. 😟
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by Grand Classic »

nightwingken wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:23 pm
TwistedTaste wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 6:24 am
nightwingken wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 10:16 pm KISS had outlived its freshness date.
Nothing was going to change that
Same with Cooper around the same time.
Cooper was changing styles left and right too.

Kiss could have stayed true to themselves and never experienced any significant drops in popularity but Paul & Gene were too ignorant to realize this
KISS could have put out Creatures (instead of Dynasty), it would not have helped, at that point people were doing what KISS was aiming for, they were now old.
I remember how silly Alice looked and then boom someone like Billy Idol came and ate his lunch.

KISS was on their way out.
And, despite the thinking in the Biokiss special, it was not new make up designs, KISS burned out.
I don't think this is entirely true. KISS fans still wanted to buy the new KISS album in 1979 and did - but they were disappointed with the album and thus the exodus happened. If they released Creatures with that same look in 1979, I think KISS would have avoided much of their decline and KISS fans/hard rock fans would have remained on board with the band.
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by TwistedTaste »

Grand Classic wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:56 am
nightwingken wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:23 pm
TwistedTaste wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 6:24 am
nightwingken wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 10:16 pm KISS had outlived its freshness date.
Nothing was going to change that
Same with Cooper around the same time.
Cooper was changing styles left and right too.

Kiss could have stayed true to themselves and never experienced any significant drops in popularity but Paul & Gene were too ignorant to realize this
KISS could have put out Creatures (instead of Dynasty), it would not have helped, at that point people were doing what KISS was aiming for, they were now old.
I remember how silly Alice looked and then boom someone like Billy Idol came and ate his lunch.

KISS was on their way out.
And, despite the thinking in the Biokiss special, it was not new make up designs, KISS burned out.
I don't think this is entirely true. KISS fans still wanted to buy the new KISS album in 1979 and did - but they were disappointed with the album and thus the exodus happened. If they released Creatures with that same look in 1979, I think KISS would have avoided much of their decline and KISS fans/hard rock fans would have remained on board with the band.
I think even putting the putrid IWMFLY at the end of side II would have helped immensely - so many dropped the needle and immediately took the album off. Lol
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by aceeg »

they thought their shit didn't stink because they were making money by kids buying crap music like the Unmasked album cover says they stink.
Then the disaster the Elder, they said who cares fans are still buying our shit because we are Kiss bigger than anyone!
Well Peter and Ace left and they said wow what the F did we do?
that was the demise of the band.
Hell ACDC had Kicka ass and VH, Ozzy , and so on Kiss took a backseat on Fame not music and they succumbed to it!

Shame! Shame! Shame! like GOT!
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by nightwingken »

ACDC and Van Halen managed to give folks what they wanted without wearing crazy costumes and a bad embarrassing tv movie of the week.
Both VH and Back and Black cleared the deck, it was a sign that the bell had rung. The good news for KISS is that they had those kids who were to young to drive in the 70s that were able to go see the LIU and Animalize shows.
IF an album like Creatures would have saved KISS , why didn't it when the stage was set for almost any competent band was getting over?
Why did "Shout at The Devil" work when COTN did not?
It took KISS reinventing themselves and tossing the "Gimmick".
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by Grand Classic »

nightwingken wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 10:40 am ACDC and Van Halen managed to give folks what they wanted without wearing crazy costumes and a bad embarrassing tv movie of the week.
Both VH and Back and Black cleared the deck, it was a sign that the bell had rung. The good news for KISS is that they had those kids who were to young to drive in the 70s that were able to go see the LIU and Animalize shows.
IF an album like Creatures would have saved KISS , why didn't it when the stage was set for almost any competent band was getting over?
Why did "Shout at The Devil" work when COTN did not?
It took KISS reinventing themselves and tossing the "Gimmick".
Because KISS pissed off fans 3 times in a row. Sort of a fool me once - shame on you/fool me twice - shame on me type of thing.

Creatures was too little too late by the time 1982 rolled around. People were just no longer interested in what KISS were selling, even if it was good.

KISS made their bed with the bad decisions they made creatively and now had to lie in that bed of disco, pop and progressive.
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by TwistedTaste »

nightwingken wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 10:40 amIF an album like Creatures would have saved KISS , why didn't it when the stage was set for almost any competent band was getting over? Why did "Shout at The Devil" work when COTN did not?
By the time of Creatures - everyone knew the band was full of shit. They were a total joke at that point. They weren’t real rock & rollers. They showed their true colors with IWMFLY, Unmasked & The Elder. Creatures was just as fake as those albums that preceded it and the public saw it. Nobody took them seriously except the kiddies who were now in their teens in the 80’s.
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by Bandit1974 »

TwistedTaste wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 11:20 am
nightwingken wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 10:40 amIF an album like Creatures would have saved KISS , why didn't it when the stage was set for almost any competent band was getting over? Why did "Shout at The Devil" work when COTN did not?
By the time of Creatures - everyone knew the band was full of shit. They were a total joke at that point. They weren’t real rock & rollers.They showed their true colors with IWMFLY, Unmasked & The Elder. Creatures was just as fake as those albums that preceded it and the public saw it. Nobody took them seriously except the kiddies who were now in their teens in the 80’s.
Well put.
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by score2112 »

Arrogance, ego, and stupidity.
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Rockandrolloverman
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by Rockandrolloverman »

Anomaly wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:26 am I'd say I think they knew exactly what they were doing, just they weren't quite expecting it to spectacularly backfire. Chalk it up to delusions of invincibility.
Agree. They thought pop songs would really appeal to a massive audience.


But regardless of how good the songs were, and the songs on unmasked were indeed great songs, the public were just burnt out on Kiss.


No matter what they did , it would have failed in 1980 1981