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Grand Classic wrote: ↑Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:20 am
It is well known that Eddie primarily wrote the music and Dave/Sammy/Gary wrote the lyrics. This isn't to say that there was never any musical collaboration with all three eras, but the process was mostly Eddie writes the music and the singers write the lyrics.
But the process also included some veto power on both sides. That's how "Jump" was rejected the first time Eddie brought it to the band. And how one of Ed's keyboard riffs ends up getting thrown into a "Dancing In The Streets" cover. Which he complained about, years later. Bottom line, if Dave and Ted Templeman are both there for the recording of 5150, it's not just the same album with different lyrics.
The fact of the matter is that much of the music was written for 5150 before Sammy even got there - including Dreams. Meaning no matter who was singing for the band - including Dave, they would be writing lyrics to that music like Dave was to Summer Nights. He had briefly started working on 5150.
Yes, if there was a different producer with Ted - then it would have sounded like a more traditional VH album, but the album overall wouldn't be a day and night difference. Let's not forget that Dave went keyboard drenched too with Skyscraper.
Keep in mind that Eddie was looking at Patty Smyth and Eric Martin for the band, so clearly he was inspired to go into a more commercial direction as that was the kind of music he was writing at the time. He wanted VH to become a different style band.
Last edited by Grand Classic on Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
In the Suds wrote: ↑Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:49 am
Look at any interview from 1986 and you will see Eddie talk about how he was now free to write stuff he could never do with Dave in the band.
It's funny that Eddie went after hair metal guys like Mitch Malloy and Gary Cherone in the band after Sammy was gone and didn't return to the VH you want. I assure you that a Mitch Malloy VH album would not be what you have been waiting for all this time.
Everyone also knows that Eddie forced Gary to try to sing like Sammy on III - because that is not how he sings at all on the Extreme albums.
This is all on Eddie and the direction HE wanted to take the band.
Grand Classic wrote: ↑Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:49 am
The fact of the matter is that much of the music was written for 5150 before Sammy even got there - including Dreams. Meaning no matter who was singing for the band - including Dave, they would be writing lyrics to that music like Dave was to Summer Nights. He had briefly started working on 5150.
The point you're not getting is that Eddie could've presented Dave with a completely finished track of "Love Walks In", and Dave (or Ted Templeman) could've said, "Nah, we're not doing that." And that would've been that.
With Sammy, he had a guy who loved everything he did. Which is why they worked well together.
Grand Classic wrote: ↑Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:49 am
The fact of the matter is that much of the music was written for 5150 before Sammy even got there - including Dreams. Meaning no matter who was singing for the band - including Dave, they would be writing lyrics to that music like Dave was to Summer Nights. He had briefly started working on 5150.
The point you're not getting is that Eddie could've presented Dave with a completely finished track of "Love Walks In", and Dave (or Ted Templeman) could've said, "Nah, we're not doing that." And that would've been that.
With Sammy, he had a guy who loved everything he did. Which is why they worked well together.
You seem to missing the point that Eddie wanted to change the direction of Van Halen anyway. It started with Jump and I'll Wait and he was taking it a big step further with 5150 - no matter who was singing.
Dave was already aware of the music Eddie was writing for 5150. He knew about Dreams as well. He was going to work on that. This was all completed long before Sammy got the call. He just wrote lyrics to most of the music that was already done.
Grand Classic wrote: ↑Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:28 pm
You seem to missing the point that Eddie wanted to change the direction of Van Halen anyway. It started with Jump and I'll Wait and he was taking it a big step further with 5150 - no matter who was singing.
Dave was already aware of the music Eddie was writing for 5150. He knew about Dreams as well. He was going to work on that. This was all completed long before Sammy got the call. He just wrote lyrics to most of the music that was already done.
If your take is that Dave was just gonna go along with whatever Ed wanted, you're wrong.
You really should read Ted Templeman's book. It's a good read.
Grand Classic wrote: ↑Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:28 pm
You seem to missing the point that Eddie wanted to change the direction of Van Halen anyway. It started with Jump and I'll Wait and he was taking it a big step further with 5150 - no matter who was singing.
Dave was already aware of the music Eddie was writing for 5150. He knew about Dreams as well. He was going to work on that. This was all completed long before Sammy got the call. He just wrote lyrics to most of the music that was already done.
If your take is that Dave was just gonna go along with whatever Ed wanted, you're wrong.
You really should read Ted Templeman's book. It's a good read.
Part of the reason why Dave left was because he wasn't entirely connecting to the stuff Eddie was writing. He mentioned this in an interview way back when that he saw the vibe of the band had changed, the VH sound had changed and he couldn't connect with it the way he used to.
Forget what came before or how things were done before. Eddie was inspired to take VH in a more commercial direction. What Dave or Ted wanted was irrelevant at this point for him. It shouldn't be a surprise that Ted went with Dave instead of staying with Eddie and working on this new direction for VH. Eddie wasn't going to listen to Ted at this point.
Grand Classic wrote: ↑Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:28 pm
You seem to missing the point that Eddie wanted to change the direction of Van Halen anyway. It started with Jump and I'll Wait and he was taking it a big step further with 5150 - no matter who was singing.
Dave was already aware of the music Eddie was writing for 5150. He knew about Dreams as well. He was going to work on that. This was all completed long before Sammy got the call. He just wrote lyrics to most of the music that was already done.
If your take is that Dave was just gonna go along with whatever Ed wanted, you're wrong.
You really should read Ted Templeman's book. It's a good read.
Part of the reason why Dave left was because he wasn't entirely connecting to the stuff Eddie was writing. He mentioned this in an interview way back when that he saw the vibe of the band had changed, the VH sound had changed and he couldn't connect with it the way he used to.
Forget what came before or how things were done before. Eddie was inspired to take VH in a more commercial direction. What Dave or Ted wanted was irrelevant at this point for him. It shouldn't be a surprise that Ted went with Dave instead of staying with Eddie and working on this new direction for VH. Eddie wasn't going to listen to Ted at this point.
You are completely talking out of your ass here...as you always do on this topic. You are wrong about all of this. Just totally wrong..
But I know from past experience it's futile to try to get you to see the error of your ways. You will never ever budge on any of it. It's exhausting.
Grand Classic wrote: ↑Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:28 pm
You seem to missing the point that Eddie wanted to change the direction of Van Halen anyway. It started with Jump and I'll Wait and he was taking it a big step further with 5150 - no matter who was singing.
Dave was already aware of the music Eddie was writing for 5150. He knew about Dreams as well. He was going to work on that. This was all completed long before Sammy got the call. He just wrote lyrics to most of the music that was already done.
If your take is that Dave was just gonna go along with whatever Ed wanted, you're wrong.
You really should read Ted Templeman's book. It's a good read.
Part of the reason why Dave left was because he wasn't entirely connecting to the stuff Eddie was writing. He mentioned this in an interview way back when that he saw the vibe of the band had changed, the VH sound had changed and he couldn't connect with it the way he used to.
Forget what came before or how things were done before. Eddie was inspired to take VH in a more commercial direction. What Dave or Ted wanted was irrelevant at this point for him. It shouldn't be a surprise that Ted went with Dave instead of staying with Eddie and working on this new direction for VH. Eddie wasn't going to listen to Ted at this point.
You are completely talking out of your ass here...as you always do on this topic. You are wrong about all of this. Just totally wrong..
But I know from past experience it's futile to try to get you to see the error of your ways. You will never ever budge on any of it. It's exhausting.
I am not wrong at all. It is exactly what happened. You just have such an irrational seething hate for Sammy and that style of music, that you lose all logic and reason when discussing this.
Perhaps you should actually read the many threads about the behind the scenes and development of the 5150 album before Sammy got there on VHLinks that include many interviews. You clearly need to be schooled here.
Mr Slow wrote: ↑Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:35 pm
I love the 80’s output (more the first half) but I agree they could have done things better. Love them or hate them, I think Mötley Crüe had the best blueprint for success in the 80’s. An album every other year, pay the money for a good producer and more subtlety with their trend following ways.
Strongly agree regarding Crue, & also LIU, COTN, & Unmasked.
caligari wrote: ↑Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:02 am
DYNASTY
UNMASKED
ELDER
Talk about losing the plot…
Three times in a row…
Yeah no doubt those 3 albums you listed are what almost killed the band at that time, but ironically it was songs like I Was Made... that grew their audience internationally and that has held them in good stead over the years. Whenever things have dried up at home they’ve always had Europe, South America, Japan or Australia to fall back on.
Tommyr wrote: ↑Sun Jul 25, 2021 2:37 pm
I would have preferred they stuck to their formula like AC/DC does. I HATED that they jumped the shark starting with "I was made" and continued chasing trends through the 80's and 90's. It sickened me. Still does.
But don’t you think they were chasing trends in the 70’s too? There’s a million miles between Wicked Lester and what KISS started out as. To me, they hopped on the glam/shock rock bandwagon that was hot at the time (Alice Cooper, T-Rex, Bowie, Sweet, Slade etc.) both visually and musically. They were just a bit more blatant with their trend hopping as time went on. But I think an argument could be made for them always having this approach. I think Gene & Paul were literally willing to do anything to make it.
This.
They were absolutely trend hopping from day one, but I don't see that big of a difference between Wicked Lester and the debut. It's just different how it's recorded.
Has anyone ever considered that they knew they'd have a short shelf life with 75% of their fans and had to keep finding new ones, hence the hopping?
Tommyr wrote: ↑Sun Jul 25, 2021 2:37 pm
I would have preferred they stuck to their formula like AC/DC does. I HATED that they jumped the shark starting with "I was made" and continued chasing trends through the 80's and 90's. It sickened me. Still does.
But don’t you think they were chasing trends in the 70’s too? There’s a million miles between Wicked Lester and what KISS started out as. To me, they hopped on the glam/shock rock bandwagon that was hot at the time (Alice Cooper, T-Rex, Bowie, Sweet, Slade etc.) both visually and musically. They were just a bit more blatant with their trend hopping as time went on. But I think an argument could be made for them always having this approach. I think Gene & Paul were literally willing to do anything to make it.
This.
They were absolutely trend hopping from day one, but I don't see that big of a difference between Wicked Lester and the debut. It's just different how it's recorded.
Has anyone ever considered that they knew they'd have a short shelf life with 75% of their fans and had to keep finding new ones, hence the hopping?
I don't see the start of KISS as trend hopping so much. They bailed on Wicked Lester, because it wasn't the style of band they wanted to be in - so right of the bat, they wanted to be a heavy rock band or what they later acknowledged as heavy metal Beatles.
Every band has influences that you can detect in their albums/songs - even early hard rock bands of the late 60's and early 70's. KISS had their influences too and sure while they jumped on the glam train a bit - they went the opposite way with black, white and silver.
This was a more natural process of influences and honest inspiration vs. calculated and shameless changes like doing a disco song or a drenched in sugar pop rock album to desperately try to appeal to the masses vs. your actual fans.
Tommyr wrote: ↑Sun Jul 25, 2021 2:37 pm
I would have preferred they stuck to their formula like AC/DC does. I HATED that they jumped the shark starting with "I was made" and continued chasing trends through the 80's and 90's. It sickened me. Still does.
But don’t you think they were chasing trends in the 70’s too? There’s a million miles between Wicked Lester and what KISS started out as. To me, they hopped on the glam/shock rock bandwagon that was hot at the time (Alice Cooper, T-Rex, Bowie, Sweet, Slade etc.) both visually and musically. They were just a bit more blatant with their trend hopping as time went on. But I think an argument could be made for them always having this approach. I think Gene & Paul were literally willing to do anything to make it.
This.
They were absolutely trend hopping from day one, but I don't see that big of a difference between Wicked Lester and the debut. It's just different how it's recorded.
Has anyone ever considered that they knew they'd have a short shelf life with 75% of their fans and had to keep finding new ones, hence the hopping?
I don't see the start of KISS as trend hopping so much. They bailed on Wicked Lester, because it wasn't the style of band they wanted to be in - so right of the bat, they wanted to be a heavy rock band or what they later acknowledged as heavy metal Beatles.
Every band has influences that you can detect in their albums/songs - even early hard rock bands of the late 60's and early 70's. KISS had their influences too and sure while they jumped on the glam train a bit - they went the opposite way with black, white and silver.
This was a more natural process of influences and honest inspiration vs. calculated and shameless changes like doing a disco song or a drenched in sugar pop rock album to desperately try to appeal to the masses vs. your actual fans.
And,
Something that younger fans sometimes miss is that
Bob Ezrin had just come off the Mega Hit -
PINK FLOYD: THE WALL
when he was tapped for MUSIC FROM THE ELDER
you can not say that Gene and Paul were not hoping that THEIR weird concept album about A BOY would not ignite a spark in the youth of the day in a similar fashion.
The role playing game “Dungeons and Dragons” had just been huge too, the medieval story line was primed to cash in on that fad too.
I can see an argument that you have to evolve with the times. The problem I have is that KISS went away from what got them to the top in the 80s and 90s. That said, they found a way to weather the storm of a few shitty albums in their later years, but for me, I would have preferred they stuck with what made them different instead of trying to blend in with the hair and grunge bands.
Kiss-Army-Sergeant wrote: ↑Mon Jul 26, 2021 7:00 pm
I can see an argument that you have to evolve with the times. The problem I have is that KISS went away from what got them to the top in the 80s and 90s. That said, they found a way to weather the storm of a few shitty albums in their later years, but for me, I would have preferred they stuck with what made them different instead of trying to blend in with the hair and grunge bands.
None of us knows with any certainty what would have happened if they hadn’t done the whole Super KISS thing. A meat and potatoes hard rock follow up to LOVE GUN instead of instead of solo albums, a cheesy movie and then a disco song. It’s easy to assume they would have stayed on top, but back then bands typically only had a short shelf life so it’s quite possible their star was destined to fade regardless. If they still looked and sounded like 1977 KISS by the mid 80’s would that have been seen as passé? 10 years of repeating themselves might have become a bit of a joke by then. Nostalgia in rock music wasn’t a thing yet. Today they’d be criticised for straying from the formula. But back then they might have been ignored for staying with it too long. Just a thought…
Grand Classic wrote: ↑Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:36 pm
Greetings,
If KISS could do it all over again when it came to making albums - would you prefer they stick to a hard rock formula or trend hop like they did.
To clarify - sticking to a hard rock formula doesn't mean making the same album over and over like AC/DC, but just a little more consistency to confirm that yes, KISS is indeed a hard rock band. Not a disco, pop, progressive, hair metal or grunge band.
So for example, instead of Dynasty and Unmasked, we might get full albums like Alive 2 Side 4 that would transition into something like Creatures.
As far as I am concerned - KISS are not Queen on any level and they would have been far better off doing what KISS does best over desperately trying to be something they are not. It would be one thing if they were musically inspired to do different things like Queen or even a band like Extreme for that matter, but when it came to KISS - it was always calculated and about trying to stay relevant.
If polka music was all the rage, KISS would do a polka album. I would prefer KISS was more musically consistent with quality control on top of that and I say that as someone who loves The Elder, but I am able to be objective here and I think their discography overall would be more respected if they stuck to an album formula like tons of other hard rock bands did.
On a side note, it is interesting that so many KISS fans were so put off that KISS ever did a ballad in the first place with Beth as KISS should be a no ballads band and yet many of those same people are swooning over Paul's ballads.
So are you happy with the albums as they are or if they could do it all over again - would you prefer sticking to a more consistent KISS sound and formula that can still take creative chances like all hard rock bands do, but isn't so blatantly calculated trend hopping with KISS wanting to be the cool kids.
Grand Classic wrote: ↑Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:36 pm
Greetings,
If KISS could do it all over again when it came to making albums - would you prefer they stick to a hard rock formula or trend hop like they did.
To clarify - sticking to a hard rock formula doesn't mean making the same album over and over like AC/DC, but just a little more consistency to confirm that yes, KISS is indeed a hard rock band. Not a disco, pop, progressive, hair metal or grunge band.
So for example, instead of Dynasty and Unmasked, we might get full albums like Alive 2 Side 4 that would transition into something like Creatures.
As far as I am concerned - KISS are not Queen on any level and they would have been far better off doing what KISS does best over desperately trying to be something they are not. It would be one thing if they were musically inspired to do different things like Queen or even a band like Extreme for that matter, but when it came to KISS - it was always calculated and about trying to stay relevant.
If polka music was all the rage, KISS would do a polka album. I would prefer KISS was more musically consistent with quality control on top of that and I say that as someone who loves The Elder, but I am able to be objective here and I think their discography overall would be more respected if they stuck to an album formula like tons of other hard rock bands did.
On a side note, it is interesting that so many KISS fans were so put off that KISS ever did a ballad in the first place with Beth as KISS should be a no ballads band and yet many of those same people are swooning over Paul's ballads.
So are you happy with the albums as they are or if they could do it all over again - would you prefer sticking to a more consistent KISS sound and formula that can still take creative chances like all hard rock bands do, but isn't so blatantly calculated trend hopping with KISS wanting to be the cool kids.
Grand Classic wrote: ↑Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:36 pm
Greetings,
If KISS could do it all over again when it came to making albums - would you prefer they stick to a hard rock formula or trend hop like they did.
To clarify - sticking to a hard rock formula doesn't mean making the same album over and over like AC/DC, but just a little more consistency to confirm that yes, KISS is indeed a hard rock band. Not a disco, pop, progressive, hair metal or grunge band.
So for example, instead of Dynasty and Unmasked, we might get full albums like Alive 2 Side 4 that would transition into something like Creatures.
As far as I am concerned - KISS are not Queen on any level and they would have been far better off doing what KISS does best over desperately trying to be something they are not. It would be one thing if they were musically inspired to do different things like Queen or even a band like Extreme for that matter, but when it came to KISS - it was always calculated and about trying to stay relevant.
If polka music was all the rage, KISS would do a polka album. I would prefer KISS was more musically consistent with quality control on top of that and I say that as someone who loves The Elder, but I am able to be objective here and I think their discography overall would be more respected if they stuck to an album formula like tons of other hard rock bands did.
On a side note, it is interesting that so many KISS fans were so put off that KISS ever did a ballad in the first place with Beth as KISS should be a no ballads band and yet many of those same people are swooning over Paul's ballads.
So are you happy with the albums as they are or if they could do it all over again - would you prefer sticking to a more consistent KISS sound and formula that can still take creative chances like all hard rock bands do, but isn't so blatantly calculated trend hopping with KISS wanting to be the cool kids.
Sometimes I forget or I am really just talking or making a case over truly asking a question.
Considering the absolute atrocious level of spelling and grammar on this site in general, I am surprised that this was your breaking point.
So what do you have to say regarding this topic?
Actually, what I was thinking was that Kiss has been condemned for following trends, and in this case, condemned for not following a trend. We can’t bring up “what if’s” ...they did what they did.
Maybe if Kiss hopped trends without taking so many half-measures, more fans (both diehard and casual) would've been OK with those albums. Either they sounded like they were made on the cheap, or most of the songs were phoned in, or no one could be bothered to work together, or all of the above. Not a surprise most of it sounded so soul-less and inferior to their competitors.
Mr Slow wrote: ↑Mon Jul 26, 2021 9:31 pm
None of us knows with any certainty what would have happened if they hadn’t done the whole Super KISS thing. A meat and potatoes hard rock follow up to LOVE GUN instead of instead of solo albums, a cheesy movie and then a disco song. It’s easy to assume they would have stayed on top, but back then bands typically only had a short shelf life so it’s quite possible their star was destined to fade regardless. If they still looked and sounded like 1977 KISS by the mid 80’s would that have been seen as passé? 10 years of repeating themselves might have become a bit of a joke by then. Nostalgia in rock music wasn’t a thing yet. Today they’d be criticised for straying from the formula. But back then they might have been ignored for staying with it too long. Just a thought…
So true. It's a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't. People probably would have bitched either way. That said, I wonder if they let pop culture influence them into doing things that maybe they weren't ready for (such as the timing of Music from The Elder) or for which they weren't really a good fit.
Vandelay Industries wrote: ↑Tue Jul 27, 2021 6:49 am
Maybe if Kiss hopped trends without taking so many half-measures, more fans (both diehard and casual) would've been OK with those albums. Either they sounded like they were made on the cheap, or most of the songs were phoned in, or no one could be bothered to work together, or all of the above. Not a surprise most of it sounded so soul-less and inferior to their competitors.
But listen to the first 6. DESTROYER aside, they were all made on the cheap and, while I wouldn’t use the term phoned in, they were very rushed and slapped together. From what we’ve learned (and what we can hear) it’s clear that a lot of those songs were written and recorded very quickly. You (and most fans) may like them better but it wasn’t like they went from multi-million dollar albums to a shoe string budget.
The second part of your point is far more valid. The segregated recording sessions and ghost players make it hard to create a unified and solid sounding album. Although interestingly enough, there are more session people on UNMASKED and CREATURES and they are two of the most complete and united sounding albums in the catalog.