Eric Carr relationship with Paul Stanley

[steveh67]

I don't know what caused the rift. I don't think there was a single, smoking gun. But look at this clip from around the very time Stanley and Carr were supposedly at odds. Maybe it was an olive branch, of sorts? Whatever teamed them up suggests, to me, some mixed emotions, there. Even with Paul's bromance with Singer going on, it never meant that he hated Carr, ever. He liked him enough to, at least, throw him a bone -- as evidenced, here ...

Eric Carr and Paul Stanley as MTV Afternoon Hosts circa 1989

Nice video, thank you for sharing. I certainly don’t see anything overly goofy about Eric in this, he just comes across as a thoroughly fun, likeable and sincere guy. Nothing fake about him at all.

Unlike Paul as we all know now. Anyone for a game of ten pin!

[AceyAintInCharge]

Eric was Paul's employee.

There's nothing saying Paul has to like him.

What makes you think he ever did?

You offer zero insight. Pointlessly negative post.

There's literally nothing negative in the post.

Suggesting 2 guys played in a band for over a decade and one possibly never liked the other isn't exactly a positive scenario either.

[DonnaDixon]

I think Paul always only thought of Eric as an adequate drummer and not a great great drummer.

What gives you that impression?

And if you're right, I wonder why they hired him?

From Paul's book:
One guy who auditioned was a little stove repairman from Brooklyn named Paul Caravello. He was tiny, with a huge head of hair and no airs or attitude. The first thing he did was ask for our autographs. At first, I wasn’t blown away by his playing, but everybody else in the room, including Vini Poncia and Bill Aucoin, thought he was great. We brought the guy back for a second time, and he turned out to have a good voice, with the same raspy quality Peter had. He was also a quick learner.

So Paul got burned by letting others talk him into something. I guess that's why he took charge decades ago and no longer ever lets anyone make decisions.

[battra]

Eric was Paul's employee.

There's nothing saying Paul has to like him.

What makes you think he ever did?

You offer zero insight. Pointlessly negative post.

There's literally nothing negative in the post.

Suggesting 2 guys played in a band for over a decade and one possibly never liked the other isn't exactly a positive scenario either.

Well.

Good thing I didn’t say that.

Nor did I imply it. You inferred that.

[steveh67]

I think Paul always only thought of Eric as an adequate drummer and not a great great drummer.

What gives you that impression?

And if you're right, I wonder why they hired him?

From Paul's book:
One guy who auditioned was a little stove repairman from Brooklyn named Paul Caravello. He was tiny, with a huge head of hair and no airs or attitude. The first thing he did was ask for our autographs. At first, I wasn’t blown away by his playing, but everybody else in the room, including Vini Poncia and Bill Aucoin, thought he was great. We brought the guy back for a second time, and he turned out to have a good voice, with the same raspy quality Peter had. He was also a quick learner.

So Paul got burned by letting others talk him into something. I guess that's why he took charge decades ago and no longer ever lets anyone make decisions.

That's why his fakeness when Eric died, still galls me to this day.

[PassMeBy]

I think it's time to leave it in the past.

Interesting advice for a KISS forum, sir.

[AceyAintInCharge]

You offer zero insight. Pointlessly negative post.

There's literally nothing negative in the post.

Suggesting 2 guys played in a band for over a decade and one possibly never liked the other isn't exactly a positive scenario either.

Well.

Good thing I didn’t say that.

Nor did I imply it. You inferred that.

I understand. I misread the post. My apologies.

[battra]

There's literally nothing negative in the post.

Suggesting 2 guys played in a band for over a decade and one possibly never liked the other isn't exactly a positive scenario either.

Well.

Good thing I didn’t say that.

Nor did I imply it. You inferred that.

I understand. I misread the post. My apologies.

No worries. Have a great day.

[Shuckton]

I think it's fair to say Paul has always wanted control of the band, and by the mid to late 80s he had basically gotten his way. He had an idea of what KISS should be, and in his mind he was the leader with Gene contributing because he was a co-founder. We all know that if Gene quit the band to become an actor in 1985, KISS would have continued as the Paul Stanley show.

By 1990, Eric had been in the band for a decade, outlasting Peter Criss by nearly 4 years. KISS was Eric's only real band - he had a sense of pride just as much, if not more, than Gene, Paul, Ace or Peter. He had worn the make-up, took it off, toured the world and recorded over 6 albums worth of material - yet Eric felt that he was allowed little creative input, a minimized part in live shows, and he was rarely featured in promotional material/appearances. Obviously Eric had enough self awareness not to start making a bunch of demands, but by 1989 he felt like a second class citizen in the band, despite being there longer than both Ace and Peter. KISS Exposed is the most glaring example of this. The lack of Carr in that video is borderline criminal! Gee, you think Eric might have some thoughts or commentary on the history of the band? Nah, Paul and Gene can just goof around!

I know what some of you will say: "He was always just an employee of KISS. He should have understood his role." This is true, but to be fair, you then have to look at Gene and Paul as managers. Part of being an effective manager is making sure your employees feel appreciated and that they have room to grow. Think about yourself - if you loved your company, worked hard at your job for 10 years and wanted to do more - yet your boss wasn't giving you more responsibility or encouraging you to grow - would you still be happy and content? I doubt it. You'd likely start feeling unappreciated, which is what happened to Eric. Especially when the few things that mattered to him started getting taken away (drum solos, Black Diamond, etc.)

I think Paul was hesitant of giving Eric a larger role for two main reasons: 1.) Paul didn't want to loosen up any control of the band no matter how small. 2.) KISS was treading water in the 80s, and he didn't want to start making changes that could have been received negatively - the old "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality.

Gene was clearly more open to collaboration (just look at the credits of The Vault). He buried the hatchet with Vinnie Vincent in the early 90s because he knew it would lead to strong material. During the Psycho Circus recording sessions Gene went out of his way to get more Ace vocals for that record. "In Your Face", "It's My Life", "Weapons (Power to Raise the Dead)", "You Wanted the Best", "Take it like a Man". Obviously Psycho Circus is a whole other can of worms, but I always got the sense that Gene was willing to work well with others if it made sense for the good of the band.

He encouraged Eric to work on material from day one, leading to the "Under the Rose" co-write, and he demoed material with him throughout the 80s. He allowed Eric to take over some of the live vocal duties, and helped him develop his Rockheads cartoon. By the time Hot in the Shade rolled around, Eric had 3 killer songs ready to go. It was Gene who encourage him to finish Little Caesar, and thank god he did!

I imagine Eric felt a renewed sense of confidence and appreciation having now sang on two records back-to-back. He probably felt that he was finally going to get some recognition. Somehow during the HITS tour that confidence was deflated, and it seems to have stemmed from Paul. Simply, Eric felt unappreciated and held back by Paul, so he started acting passive aggressive towards him. Paul started to resent Eric for not appreciating his position in KISS, and took the attitude of "If you don't want to be here anymore, then leave."

I find it quite telling that in Paul's autobiography he mentions: "Eric was always insecure about not being the original drummer of KISS. I never understood this. You're the second drummer, so what?" Really Paul? Maybe Eric was insecure, because despite being in the band longer than the original drummer, he was still being treated like a hired hand. A serious lack of emotional intelligence on Stanley's part here.

It's all very unfortunate, and I think the events between 1989-91 are likely the darkest stain on KISS' career. All parties involved seem to have reconciled the situation in their own way, and both Gene and Paul have expressed regret in how they handled everything. I choose to believe them. I understand that 1980-1991 is not what KISS bases their legacy on, but still... it's a bummer that Eric Carr is still treated as a footnote to this day.

[SpinningAcorn]

In hindsight, maybe KISS SHOULD have brought in a name drummer like Carmine Appice to replace Peter, or Punky Meadows to replace Ace, to help balance the shift in power and ego. Maybe if they had a name person who took a percentage, had a voice and had a say, it would have made for a stronger band.

I don't know how much Carmine would have brought to the band. Have you heard king cobra? It's not like Carmine can write songs. And there's no way Paul would have put up with Carmine's huge ego.

[ozweepay]

I think it's fair to say Paul has always wanted control of the band, and by the mid to late 80s he had basically gotten his way. He had an idea of what KISS should be, and in his mind he was the leader with Gene contributing because he was a co-founder. We all know that if Gene quit the band to become an actor in 1985, KISS would have continued as the Paul Stanley show.

By 1990, Eric had been in the band for a decade, outlasting Peter Criss by nearly 4 years. KISS was Eric's only real band - he had a sense of pride just as much, if not more, than Gene, Paul, Ace or Peter. He had worn the make-up, took it off, toured the world and recorded over 6 albums worth of material - yet Eric felt that he was allowed little creative input, a minimized part in live shows, and he was rarely featured in promotional material/appearances. Obviously Eric had enough self awareness not to start making a bunch of demands, but by 1989 he felt like a second class citizen in the band, despite being there longer than both Ace and Peter. KISS Exposed is the most glaring example of this. The lack of Carr in that video is borderline criminal! Gee, you think Eric might have some thoughts or commentary on the history of the band? Nah, Paul and Gene can just goof around!

I know what some of you will say: "He was always just an employee of KISS. He should have understood his role." This is true, but to be fair, you then have to look at Gene and Paul as managers. Part of being an effective manager is making sure your employees feel appreciated and that they have room to grow. Think about yourself - if you loved your company, worked hard at your job for 10 years and wanted to do more - yet your boss wasn't giving you more responsibility or encouraging you to grow - would you still be happy and content? I doubt it. You'd likely start feeling unappreciated, which is what happened to Eric. Especially when the few things that mattered to him started getting taken away (drum solos, Black Diamond, etc.)

I think Paul was hesitant of giving Eric a larger role for two main reasons: 1.) Paul didn't want to loosen up any control of the band no matter how small. 2.) KISS was treading water in the 80s, and he didn't want to start making changes that could have been received negatively - the old "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality.

Gene was clearly more open to collaboration (just look at the credits of The Vault). He buried the hatchet with Vinnie Vincent in the early 90s because he knew it would lead to strong material. During the Psycho Circus recording sessions Gene went out of his way to get more Ace vocals for that record. "In Your Face", "It's My Life", "Weapons (Power to Raise the Dead)", "You Wanted the Best", "Take it like a Man". Obviously Psycho Circus is a whole other can of worms, but I always got the sense that Gene was willing to work well with others if it made sense for the good of the band.

He encouraged Eric to work on material from day one, leading to the "Under the Rose" co-write, and he demoed material with him throughout the 80s. He allowed Eric to take over some of the live vocal duties, and helped him develop his Rockheads cartoon. By the time Hot in the Shade rolled around, Eric had 3 killer songs ready to go. It was Gene who encourage him to finish Little Caesar, and thank god he did!

I imagine Eric felt a renewed sense of confidence and appreciation having now sang on two records back-to-back. He probably felt that he was finally going to get some recognition. Somehow during the HITS tour that confidence was deflated, and it seems to have stemmed from Paul. Simply, Eric felt unappreciated and held back by Paul, so he started acting passive aggressive towards him. Paul started to resent Eric for not appreciating his position in KISS, and took the attitude of "If you don't want to be here anymore, then leave."

I find it quite telling that in Paul's autobiography he mentions: "Eric was always insecure about not being the original drummer of KISS. I never understood this. You're the second drummer, so what?" Really Paul? Maybe Eric was insecure, because despite being in the band longer than the original drummer, he was still being treated like a hired hand. A serious lack of emotional intelligence on Stanley's part here.

It's all very unfortunate, and I think the events between 1989-91 are likely the darkest stain on KISS' career. All parties involved seem to have reconciled the situation in their own way, and both Gene and Paul have expressed regret in how they handled everything. I choose to believe them. I understand that 1980-1991 is not what KISS bases their legacy on, but still... it's a bummer that Eric Carr is still treated as a footnote to this day.

Very well written, and some excellent points.
Thank you.

[shupey]

I am sure the loss of the drum solo was part of the issue along with Eric's insecurities and Paul's "approach" to people. I wonder also if Eric's lack of opportunity for a creative outlet was part of it too. Not being able to work with Ace, lack of lead vocals etc. I always though Eric and Jason Newsted were similar in that regard. Newsted wanted to do stuff outside of Metallica and eventually left Metallica mostly because of it. For Paul and Gene, I think their experiences with band-mates who "burned them" in the past may have jaded their attitudes towards band-mates who wanted "more".

[jkiss]

In hindsight, maybe KISS SHOULD have brought in a name drummer like Carmine Appice to replace Peter, or Punky Meadows to replace Ace, to help balance the shift in power and ego. Maybe if they had a name person who took a percentage, had a voice and had a say, it would have made for a stronger band.

I don't know how much Carmine would have brought to the band. Have you heard king cobra? It's not like Carmine can write songs. And there's no way Paul would have put up with Carmine's huge ego.

According to Peter, Paul did have a plan formulating to replace him with Carmine.

And the next time I speak with Peter it'll be, "Exactly how so & when precisely?" (but even though, I already know).

[jkiss]

I think it's fair to say Paul has always wanted control of the band.

I actually don't believe Paul wanted to control every aspect of KISS. And I found him to be surprisingly naïve & quite immature when I first met him (circa 1978). I even sensed an overall reluctancy about him with even wanting to be responsible, for anything. I also suspected he may have been formally 'a hippie'; as really came across as a 'free spirit'.



I think if Paul could've gotten away with delegating workloads to others & not have gotten himself (or KISS) burned in the process (from his own perception), he would've (& providing they could afford to of). And I really feel he only took on as much as he did out of absolute necessity.

It might've even been one of his own worst nightmares come true.

[gene therapist]

Paul hated Eric Carr for no reason. It's sad.

Pretty ridiculous to say he hated him. What’s the evidence?

Paul's book, for one. He takes needless shots at Eric many times in the book.

Hardly worthy of the term “hate”.

EXACTLY.

[KISSFACE]

But Eric did get his drum solo back and delivered his most elaborate to date. If he never had cancer, i think they work it out and carry on and he keeps writing and maybe starts to break thru more often now that the ice is cracked.

How this would affect the album that became Revenge in our reality — and potentially an overdue Alive III — would be very interesting to hear.

Maybe Eric Singer shows up in a different way — say, on another Paul solo album, mid-to-late 90s.

[DaveinSpain]

I often wonder if Paul & Eric worked out their differences and Eric never passed & all was well in the world of Kiss would he of been booted for the reunion tour? If yes would he be the one playing today in the Fox makeup because Peter left? I love the original Kiss but man it would seem like such a slap in the face if after 15 years in the band and even a stint in the make up years you get booted for Peter. Either way it's sad he passed so young and the more I read things the more I dislike Paul Stanley. It was always Gene who was my least favourite...I think in the last 6 months or so since I've joined this message board Gene has become my 2nd favourite behind Ace.

[detroit_01]

we all know paul ego is too big for him to admit he's wrong... he is a saint. gene is about money as the sinner. so that being said they were conspiring all along and eric singer was gonna replace carr and he knew it. paul is a real son of a b*tch and i have lost all good ideas or feelings about him after reading his loathsome comments about ace, peter and especially eric carr. stanley the parrot won't shut up. schmuck.

[I Am A FREAK]

I think it was because Eric was insecure and very goofy.

I share this thesis, I have always had this feeling too. I think he was a great musician (The Elder proves it) but maybe his style was not suited to KISS. (Anton Fig would have been Peter's successor for me)