I think Gene and Paul were savvy enough that they could have been successful doing other things. Better than doing a watered down version of KISS or the show that they never wanted KISS to be.B5Erik wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:38 pmWhat you're forgetting is that beggars can't be choosers.Grand Classic wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:46 pmThat's the point. Paul and Gene wouldn't want to live that life. They are used to certain lifestyle and status. They are not grinding it out in clubs, theaters and casinos with a small KISS show.kevsdad wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 9:59 pm At worse KISS would be in similar situations that bands like Priest, Foreigner, Journey or other bands found themselves in. Playing theaters, opening/co-headlining or casinos. They would have been far, far better off than Ace and Peter without a reunion if for no other reason Gene and Paul are grinders. They’ll do the worked needed.
It would have been play the 4,000 seat venues and sell a quarter million copies of their albums OR quit the band, sell their luxury houses and move into small, middle class neighborhoods like the rest of us.
I think they would have chosen the one with the greater income stream. Playing 4,000 seaters still generates enough revenue to keep them in luxury homes. Trying pathetic solo careers or acting careers that go nowhere would TRULY have seen them go bankrupt individually.
It wouldn't have been a choice at all.
So, yeah, the Reunion made each of them tens of millions of dollars they wouldn't have had otherwise, but if the Reunion hadn't happened they would have had no choice but to scale back expectations and make the best of what KISS could do. Beats being broke in a middle class neighborhood!
KISS was going out of business in 1994
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Re: KISS was going out of business in 1994
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Re: KISS was going out of business in 1994
In 94 they were in the same position as they were in 83 - when nobody gave a damn so they took off the makeup to get some hype - then after grunge killed them off and they took over the conventions they realized they had to put makeup back on to get some attention -
The "tough guy leather boy with goatee" image of 92 wasn't believable- especially after they spent most of the 80's looking like they came out of a Maybelline sponsored clown car (how ironic if the story about Joel Brodsky wanting to put balloons behind them on the 1st LP photo because he thought they were supposed to be clowns is true)-
At that point in 95-96 had they added 2 new makeup characters nobody would've cared - nor could they have put Bruce & Eric in the old makeup - people would've laughed at them - the only option they had is to do the Reunion Tour with all 4 guys and hype it up like they did - they had no other choice -
Had they not done the reunion they would've ended up playing the same size venues that Paul did on that 1989 mini tour - regardless of how many people think they are the greatest band ever nobody but the hardcore fans going to those conventions in 2XL KISS Shirts gave a damn about them at that point- and if Polygram would've released Carnival of Souls at the time it would've been seen as a pathetic Soundgarden cash in - they made that album to try and be relevant - dropped D and everything - they weren't-
I worked in a record store at the time and there wasn't even a KISS section - whatever random album showed up was in the generic K section - after all of the crap that went down between the 4 original guys there is no way they would've hooked back up with them unless they needed to- Paul & Gene are not idiots - they are jackasses - but they aren't idiots - they knew that they had to do it and do it then and lay out the plans for the future-
The "tough guy leather boy with goatee" image of 92 wasn't believable- especially after they spent most of the 80's looking like they came out of a Maybelline sponsored clown car (how ironic if the story about Joel Brodsky wanting to put balloons behind them on the 1st LP photo because he thought they were supposed to be clowns is true)-
At that point in 95-96 had they added 2 new makeup characters nobody would've cared - nor could they have put Bruce & Eric in the old makeup - people would've laughed at them - the only option they had is to do the Reunion Tour with all 4 guys and hype it up like they did - they had no other choice -
Had they not done the reunion they would've ended up playing the same size venues that Paul did on that 1989 mini tour - regardless of how many people think they are the greatest band ever nobody but the hardcore fans going to those conventions in 2XL KISS Shirts gave a damn about them at that point- and if Polygram would've released Carnival of Souls at the time it would've been seen as a pathetic Soundgarden cash in - they made that album to try and be relevant - dropped D and everything - they weren't-
I worked in a record store at the time and there wasn't even a KISS section - whatever random album showed up was in the generic K section - after all of the crap that went down between the 4 original guys there is no way they would've hooked back up with them unless they needed to- Paul & Gene are not idiots - they are jackasses - but they aren't idiots - they knew that they had to do it and do it then and lay out the plans for the future-
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Re: KISS was going out of business in 1994
no you said "Crossed whatever line that pissed off the admin."Grand Classic wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:15 pmI answered. Heated back and forths and HOW I say something as opposed to what I say. I am sorry to disappoint you, but I didn't commit some heinous act on the forum.sicksickphil wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:09 pmi wasn't asking about other people, i was asking about you. I'm sure you remember what you did. so tell us.Grand Classic wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:04 pmFor the same reason as the countless other people who have been banned. Crossed whatever line that pissed off the admin.sicksickphil wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 7:54 pm
reminded us again, why were you kicked off the kissfaq ?
Also, heated back and forth will not get you banned. if it did, there would be no members of this forum.
"and HOW I say something as opposed to what I say. " no, it was what you said.
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Re: KISS was going out of business in 1994
Yes…poor choice of words. Was not referring to geography. My apologies. I meant the party hard and fuck it sort of folks…no matter where they might reside be it in America, Australia, UK, etc. etc.Heartofchrome wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:24 pmYou do know that its more than "the redneck hillbillies" that drink right? The south is not always to blame.70skid wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:35 am Fairly soon, we are going to see the oft-repeated story of how fabulously successful KISS was, both with and without Ace and Peter. This success is due to the hard work, Live To Win attitude, and alcohol / drug-free nature of Paul and Gene. Never you mind that Paul used to banter in the 80s about being fucked up drunk in his concert mouth-offs...maybe he was trying to sound 'cool' and playing to his redneck ticket buying public...but I digress. In this Paul Stanley narrative, 1995's Unplugged and the reunion tour of 1996-1997 were sacrifices that they made "for the fans" and once again Ace and Peter failed the fans and and failed KISS. With me so far ?
Here is the stark reality. By 1994, KISS Corp was up the creek without a paddle. The 1992 Revenge Tour was an abject financial failure and there was no go-forward outlook for KISS' fortunes to improve with that configuration of KISS. Per Paul's own words, he and Gene weren't even speaking in 1994. KISS was more or less done as a serious profit generating entity. They owed their record label an album which became Carnival of Souls...but there was no profit of any sort on the horizon.
Then what happened ? KISS Corp began taking notice of KISS fans spending money to remember and celebrate the glory years of KISS. Specifically, the original founding configuration of KISS. There was an new economy built on all things KISS. Conventions, trading in artifacts, etc. Now KISS Corp knew how to tap into a new business model. How was that ? - - - We will blow everybody's minds by bringing back Ace and Peter. The money will flow into our coffers again. So, they held their noses and brought those guys back. The results exceeded all of their most lofty expectations.
The only KISS that has ever brought in the kind of real mega-money that allows Paul & Gene to live the lives that they enjoy today was the KISS that consisted of Paul, Gene, Ace, and Peter. Today's pitiful excuse for a KISS show is the last vestiges of that KISS.....a farewell tour of 1970s KISS that has been going on for nearly 22 years - - with two imposters playing the roles of Ace and Peter for 17 of those years.
So why am I talking abut this ? We are about to see and hear a narrative that not only minimizes Ace and Peter but casts them as liabilities that held KISS back. We all know it is coming. KISS is Paul and Gene with whatever schmoes they choose to employ according to this narrative. They have finally found some good employees and and have the best version of KISS ever, are going out on-top, etc., etc. It is absolute bullshit. The KISS that put them in their mansions and secured the financial futures of their offspring is the KISS that consisted of Paul, Gene, Ace, and Peter. PERIOD.
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Re: KISS was going out of business in 1994
This!70skid wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:35 am Fairly soon, we are going to see the oft-repeated story of how fabulously successful KISS was, both with and without Ace and Peter. This success is due to the hard work, Live To Win attitude, and alcohol / drug-free nature of Paul and Gene. Never you mind that Paul used to banter in the 80s about being fucked up drunk in his concert mouth-offs...maybe he was trying to sound 'cool' and playing to his redneck ticket buying public...but I digress. In this Paul Stanley narrative, 1995's Unplugged and the reunion tour of 1996-1997 were sacrifices that they made "for the fans" and once again Ace and Peter failed the fans and and failed KISS. With me so far ?
Here is the stark reality. By 1994, KISS Corp was up the creek without a paddle. The 1992 Revenge Tour was an abject financial failure and there was no go-forward outlook for KISS' fortunes to improve with that configuration of KISS. Per Paul's own words, he and Gene weren't even speaking in 1994. KISS was more or less done as a serious profit generating entity. They owed their record label an album which became Carnival of Souls...but there was no profit of any sort on the horizon.
Then what happened ? KISS Corp began taking notice of KISS fans spending money to remember and celebrate the glory years of KISS. Specifically, the original founding configuration of KISS. There was an new economy built on all things KISS. Conventions, trading in artifacts, etc. Now KISS Corp knew how to tap into a new business model. How was that ? - - - We will blow everybody's minds by bringing back Ace and Peter. The money will flow into our coffers again. So, they held their noses and brought those guys back. The results exceeded all of their most lofty expectations.
The only KISS that has ever brought in the kind of real mega-money that allows Paul & Gene to live the lives that they enjoy today was the KISS that consisted of Paul, Gene, Ace, and Peter. Today's pitiful excuse for a KISS show is the last vestiges of that KISS.....a farewell tour of 1970s KISS that has been going on for nearly 22 years - - with two imposters playing the roles of Ace and Peter for 17 of those years.
So why am I talking abut this ? We are about to see and hear a narrative that not only minimizes Ace and Peter but casts them as liabilities that held KISS back. We all know it is coming. KISS is Paul and Gene with whatever schmoes they choose to employ according to this narrative. They have finally found some good employees and and have the best version of KISS ever, are going out on-top, etc., etc. It is absolute bullshit. The KISS that put them in their mansions and secured the financial futures of their offspring is the KISS that consisted of Paul, Gene, Ace, and Peter. PERIOD.
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Re: KISS was going out of business in 1994
Me tooMad Dog wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:19 amThey would be now on the same level as bands such as UFO and Y&T, both I love BTW.70skid wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 9:14 amMore like 2,500 seat theaters, hotel ball-rooms, and casinos with seriously scaled back logistics and show. Need the lower capacity to drive up ticket prices (yield) to profitable levels. Even then, the net profits would be low vs. the effort expended.B5Erik wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:53 am KISS could have continued by playing 3,000 - 6,000 seat venues. Scale back the staging, focus on the music, actually promote the new album, and the remaining fans would have been happy. KISS would have been profitable with the lower overhead.
No, they wouldn't have been a phenomenon, and Paul & Gene wouldn't have made the tens of millions that they made on the Reunion Tour, but they wouldn't have been broke, either.
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Re: KISS was going out of business in 1994
I think they would be on the level of bands like Alice Cooper or Whitesnake, playing for 1500 - 5000 people depending on the country.Kissoff wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:35 amMe tooMad Dog wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:19 amThey would be now on the same level as bands such as UFO and Y&T, both I love BTW.70skid wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 9:14 amMore like 2,500 seat theaters, hotel ball-rooms, and casinos with seriously scaled back logistics and show. Need the lower capacity to drive up ticket prices (yield) to profitable levels. Even then, the net profits would be low vs. the effort expended.B5Erik wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:53 am KISS could have continued by playing 3,000 - 6,000 seat venues. Scale back the staging, focus on the music, actually promote the new album, and the remaining fans would have been happy. KISS would have been profitable with the lower overhead.
No, they wouldn't have been a phenomenon, and Paul & Gene wouldn't have made the tens of millions that they made on the Reunion Tour, but they wouldn't have been broke, either.
They were always way bigger than the likes of Y&T.
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Re: KISS was going out of business in 1994
They'd be playing clubs and theaters, and P&G would be telling the media how their audience has become more selective.
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Re: KISS was going out of business in 1994
You are wrong. It is exactly what happened. People have also been banned for thread jacking heated back and forths all the time. Are you new here?sicksickphil wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 3:21 amno you said "Crossed whatever line that pissed off the admin."Grand Classic wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:15 pmI answered. Heated back and forths and HOW I say something as opposed to what I say. I am sorry to disappoint you, but I didn't commit some heinous act on the forum.sicksickphil wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:09 pmi wasn't asking about other people, i was asking about you. I'm sure you remember what you did. so tell us.Grand Classic wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:04 pm
For the same reason as the countless other people who have been banned. Crossed whatever line that pissed off the admin.
Also, heated back and forth will not get you banned. if it did, there would be no members of this forum.
"and HOW I say something as opposed to what I say. " no, it was what you said.
Also this:
viewtopic.php?p=3241481#p3241481
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Re: KISS was going out of business in 1994
Really, did Judas Priest and Iron Maiden ever play clubs? Even with their replacement singers in the most hostile era towards their music?Vandelay Industries wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:01 am They'd be playing clubs and theaters, and P&G would be telling the media how their audience has become more selective.
No. Not even close.
Alice Cooper never played clubs, and he was never as popular as KISS.
KISS would never have had to play a venue smaller than 3,000 capacity. The only people saying that are those who are basing their opinions on personal biases. The facts and other real world examples contradict those opinions.
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Re: KISS was going out of business in 1994
B5Erik wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:39 amReally, did Judas Priest and Iron Maiden ever play clubs? Even with their replacement singers in the most hostile era towards their music?Vandelay Industries wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:01 am They'd be playing clubs and theaters, and P&G would be telling the media how their audience has become more selective.
No. Not even close.
Alice Cooper never played clubs, and he was never as popular as KISS.
KISS would never have had to play a venue smaller than 3,000 capacity. The only people saying that are those who are basing their opinions on personal biases. The facts and other real world examples contradict those opinions.
Actually there is a video of Iron Maiden playing at The Edge Club in Ft. Lauderdale on the X-Factor tour in 1996- I don't know what capacity it is - but I know that it had a lot of raves and stuff like that and the stage looks pretty small in the video-
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Re: KISS was going out of business in 1994
I think the Carnival Of Souls tour would really be poorly attended.B5Erik wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:39 amReally, did Judas Priest and Iron Maiden ever play clubs? Even with their replacement singers in the most hostile era towards their music?Vandelay Industries wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:01 am They'd be playing clubs and theaters, and P&G would be telling the media how their audience has become more selective.
No. Not even close.
Alice Cooper never played clubs, and he was never as popular as KISS.
KISS would never have had to play a venue smaller than 3,000 capacity. The only people saying that are those who are basing their opinions on personal biases. The facts and other real world examples contradict those opinions.
I saw KISS doing a club show prior to the Revenge tour. It was a small place and full, but it's not like 2,000+ people were outside trying to get in.
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Re: KISS was going out of business in 1994
A friend of mine saw that same club tour (I think in Atlanta) - you didn't have to pay to meet them back then eitherGrand Classic wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:18 pmI think the Carnival Of Souls tour would really be poorly attended.B5Erik wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:39 amReally, did Judas Priest and Iron Maiden ever play clubs? Even with their replacement singers in the most hostile era towards their music?Vandelay Industries wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:01 am They'd be playing clubs and theaters, and P&G would be telling the media how their audience has become more selective.
No. Not even close.
Alice Cooper never played clubs, and he was never as popular as KISS.
KISS would never have had to play a venue smaller than 3,000 capacity. The only people saying that are those who are basing their opinions on personal biases. The facts and other real world examples contradict those opinions.
I saw KISS doing a club show prior to the Revenge tour. It was a small place and full, but it's not like 2,000+ people were outside trying to get in.
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Re: KISS was going out of business in 1994
If anything, the attendance of the club show should have maybe tipped off Paul and Gene - that the Revenge tour was going to be a failure.cowboytoast wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:24 pmA friend of mine saw that same club tour (I think in Atlanta) - you didn't have to pay to meet them back then eitherGrand Classic wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:18 pmI think the Carnival Of Souls tour would really be poorly attended.B5Erik wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:39 amReally, did Judas Priest and Iron Maiden ever play clubs? Even with their replacement singers in the most hostile era towards their music?Vandelay Industries wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:01 am They'd be playing clubs and theaters, and P&G would be telling the media how their audience has become more selective.
No. Not even close.
Alice Cooper never played clubs, and he was never as popular as KISS.
KISS would never have had to play a venue smaller than 3,000 capacity. The only people saying that are those who are basing their opinions on personal biases. The facts and other real world examples contradict those opinions.
I saw KISS doing a club show prior to the Revenge tour. It was a small place and full, but it's not like 2,000+ people were outside trying to get in.
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Re: KISS was going out of business in 1994
No shit there weren't 2,000+ people trying to get in. They didn't have tickets, and the show was sold out on the first day of sales (and if it was like most of the club dates that year it sold out in a few minutes - the Hollywood show sold out in FIVE MINUTES). People are smart enough to not show up to a sold out club show for a major band because they know there won't be any chance of getting in.Grand Classic wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:18 pmI think the Carnival Of Souls tour would really be poorly attended.B5Erik wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:39 amReally, did Judas Priest and Iron Maiden ever play clubs? Even with their replacement singers in the most hostile era towards their music?Vandelay Industries wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:01 am They'd be playing clubs and theaters, and P&G would be telling the media how their audience has become more selective.
No. Not even close.
Alice Cooper never played clubs, and he was never as popular as KISS.
KISS would never have had to play a venue smaller than 3,000 capacity. The only people saying that are those who are basing their opinions on personal biases. The facts and other real world examples contradict those opinions.
I saw KISS doing a club show prior to the Revenge tour. It was a small place and full, but it's not like 2,000+ people were outside trying to get in.
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Re: KISS was going out of business in 1994
I assure you if it was a MAJOR band - there would be police called to manage the crowds outside. I have seen that too.B5Erik wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:16 pmNo shit there weren't 2,000+ people trying to get in. They didn't have tickets, and the show was sold out on the first day of sales (and if it was like most of the club dates that year it sold out in a few minutes - the Hollywood show sold out in FIVE MINUTES). People are smart enough to not show up to a sold out club show for a major band because they know there won't be any chance of getting in.Grand Classic wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:18 pmI think the Carnival Of Souls tour would really be poorly attended.B5Erik wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:39 amReally, did Judas Priest and Iron Maiden ever play clubs? Even with their replacement singers in the most hostile era towards their music?Vandelay Industries wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:01 am They'd be playing clubs and theaters, and P&G would be telling the media how their audience has become more selective.
No. Not even close.
Alice Cooper never played clubs, and he was never as popular as KISS.
KISS would never have had to play a venue smaller than 3,000 capacity. The only people saying that are those who are basing their opinions on personal biases. The facts and other real world examples contradict those opinions.
I saw KISS doing a club show prior to the Revenge tour. It was a small place and full, but it's not like 2,000+ people were outside trying to get in.
KISS were on a serious decline and they unfortunately didn't realize it in time, but they eventually did - which is why the reunion tour happened.
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Re: KISS was going out of business in 1994
Actually Erik, Maiden (who I like a lot, seen them a number of times) did go down to clubs after Bruce left (big clubs though). Here in NYC for example, they played The Academy, and other shows on that tour were Hammerjack's in Baltimore and Electric Factory in Philly. Some of the American venues even had the word "club" in their title, like Birch Hill Night Club in New Jersey and Odeon Concert Club in Cleveland. Their next US tour also was full of the same and similar venues, like Roseland Ballroom in NYC.B5Erik wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:39 amReally, did Judas Priest and Iron Maiden ever play clubs? Even with their replacement singers in the most hostile era towards their music?Vandelay Industries wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:01 am They'd be playing clubs and theaters, and P&G would be telling the media how their audience has become more selective.
No. Not even close.
About Kiss and a Carnival of Souls tour, I think that album was so fake and contrived that Kiss would even have a hard time filling large clubs. I think the album was so "WTF" that if Kiss toured for it, it would have been like if they toured for "The Elder" which they very smartly avoided. Just my worthless opinion.
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Re: KISS was going out of business in 1994
It'd be mostly theaters for awhile. By 2021 tho, I might be too hesitant to take that bet. With every trend they jumped, they seemed to lose more fans than they gained, a problem that Maiden hardly has to deal with, so the comparisons aren't even.B5Erik wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:39 amReally, did Judas Priest and Iron Maiden ever play clubs? Even with their replacement singers in the most hostile era towards their music?Vandelay Industries wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:01 am They'd be playing clubs and theaters, and P&G would be telling the media how their audience has become more selective.
No. Not even close.
Alice Cooper never played clubs, and he was never as popular as KISS.
KISS would never have had to play a venue smaller than 3,000 capacity. The only people saying that are those who are basing their opinions on personal biases. The facts and other real world examples contradict those opinions.
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Re: KISS was going out of business in 1994
What was the capacity in those, "Clubs?" 1,800? 2,000+ maybe?redinthesky wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:07 pmActually Erik, Maiden (who I like a lot, seen them a number of times) did go down to clubs after Bruce left (big clubs though). Here in NYC for example, they played The Academy, and other shows on that tour were Hammerjack's in Baltimore and Electric Factory in Philly. Some of the American venues even had the word "club" in their title, like Birch Hill Night Club in New Jersey and Odeon Concert Club in Cleveland. Their next US tour also was full of the same and similar venues, like Roseland Ballroom in NYC.B5Erik wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:39 amReally, did Judas Priest and Iron Maiden ever play clubs? Even with their replacement singers in the most hostile era towards their music?Vandelay Industries wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:01 am They'd be playing clubs and theaters, and P&G would be telling the media how their audience has become more selective.
No. Not even close.
I saw Maiden in San Diego in 1998 as the San Diego State Open Air Amphitheater. Sold out. Over 4,200 people there. They played the Universal Amphitheater in Hollywood that week as well, if I remember correctly.
Not exactly clubs.
Paul and Gene were always good at finding ways to make things work. In 1983, when the U.S. Tour was doing weak business (although still averaging 4,000+) they hit South America and played stadiums.
Like I said before, Grunge bands like Pearl Jam and Soundgarden were citing KISS as an influence, giving them greater credibility with the younger fans, and they still had two decades of fans to market to as well.
It wouldn't have been huge, but most bands 15+ years into their career who are still together are usually in far worse shape than KISS would have been in.
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Re: KISS was going out of business in 1994
If there had been no reunion KISS would have been done as soon as Paul's voice started to go. And that would have been preferable to hearing him croak through the setlist, with his voice getting worse and worse each tour, with only 2014 being an exception.Vandelay Industries wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:00 pmIt'd be mostly theaters for awhile. By 2021 tho, I might be too hesitant to take that bet. With every trend they jumped, they seemed to lose more fans than they gained, a problem that Maiden hardly has to deal with, so the comparisons aren't even.B5Erik wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:39 amReally, did Judas Priest and Iron Maiden ever play clubs? Even with their replacement singers in the most hostile era towards their music?Vandelay Industries wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:01 am They'd be playing clubs and theaters, and P&G would be telling the media how their audience has become more selective.
No. Not even close.
Alice Cooper never played clubs, and he was never as popular as KISS.
KISS would never have had to play a venue smaller than 3,000 capacity. The only people saying that are those who are basing their opinions on personal biases. The facts and other real world examples contradict those opinions.
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Re: KISS was going out of business in 1994
They didn't HAVE to play small theaters, they could have just done festivals exclusively. That's the same model Venom follows. I dont think they've EVER even done a real "tour". They only ever played large gigs since day one because they always played huge shows with like 5 other bands. Or similar to what Manowar does - play giant stadiums in Europe or South America (which KISS were still doing even in 94) and pretty much just ignore the US (same thing they did in 1980)
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Re: KISS was going out of business in 1994
The Academy was a little less but for the most part yes, like I said big clubs. Kind of how the old Ritz was always known as a club, but was huge inside and many big names always played (including both Bruce's Maiden and Kiss warming up for tours). Not sure what defines "club," maybe where you have to stand. You can squeeze a lot of people shoulder to shoulder in a huge room on the main floor. I didn't mean to make it sound like Maiden was down and out without Bruce but they did go through a downgrade in popularity. But at least Maiden still was "Maiden" - I still don't believe Kiss touring for CoS would have been even Maiden/Blaze successful in most places. Just IMO.B5Erik wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:03 pmWhat was the capacity in those, "Clubs?" 1,800? 2,000+ maybe?redinthesky wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:07 pmActually Erik, Maiden (who I like a lot, seen them a number of times) did go down to clubs after Bruce left (big clubs though). Here in NYC for example, they played The Academy, and other shows on that tour were Hammerjack's in Baltimore and Electric Factory in Philly. Some of the American venues even had the word "club" in their title, like Birch Hill Night Club in New Jersey and Odeon Concert Club in Cleveland. Their next US tour also was full of the same and similar venues, like Roseland Ballroom in NYC.B5Erik wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:39 amReally, did Judas Priest and Iron Maiden ever play clubs? Even with their replacement singers in the most hostile era towards their music?Vandelay Industries wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:01 am They'd be playing clubs and theaters, and P&G would be telling the media how their audience has become more selective.
No. Not even close.
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Re: KISS was going out of business in 1994
There’s no data even remotely close to pointing KISS going out of business.
With no reunion a Revenge lineup would still be touring today. How successful?
They would be in no worse shape than bands like ZZ Top, Steve Miller, and Judas Priest.
With no reunion a Revenge lineup would still be touring today. How successful?
They would be in no worse shape than bands like ZZ Top, Steve Miller, and Judas Priest.
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Re: KISS was going out of business in 1994
I don't believe that. I don't think they could get away with lip synching if not for the huge spectacle that is a KISS show. And I don't think they could afford a huge spectacle with a Revenge, no-makeup lineup.nibbler1982 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 6:31 am With no reunion a Revenge lineup would still be touring today. How successful?
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Re: KISS was going out of business in 1994
Anyone that says that Kiss was going to go out of business from 94 onwards without the reunion doesn't know anything about the music business.
Any band with more than two hits (and yes, Kiss has more than two "hits") + a strong fan base (maybe not that big in 94, but you can't deny that was strong) + any mid-size manager (doesn't even have to be a top-shelf one) that knows the business would run Kiss smoothly.
Festivals, package tours -and I don't mean KISS/Enuff Znuff co-headlining, more than Kiss/Judas Priest Kiss/Motley Crue-, hell even a special guest appareance as opening act of stadums for Pearl Jam or something, playing the "influence" card,
still big places around the world, would have the band making good business.
Besides, maybe they would have been gone from 96 to 01 or something, as any band of that era was losing ground (the reunion saved them from that) but by the new millenium and specially this last ten years, nostalgia (and again, Kiss has the songs to back it up) is big and they would have a kind of resurgence.
Really, it's almost funny that people talks Kiss as if it were Autograph or something. No clue at all.
Any band with more than two hits (and yes, Kiss has more than two "hits") + a strong fan base (maybe not that big in 94, but you can't deny that was strong) + any mid-size manager (doesn't even have to be a top-shelf one) that knows the business would run Kiss smoothly.
Festivals, package tours -and I don't mean KISS/Enuff Znuff co-headlining, more than Kiss/Judas Priest Kiss/Motley Crue-, hell even a special guest appareance as opening act of stadums for Pearl Jam or something, playing the "influence" card,
still big places around the world, would have the band making good business.
Besides, maybe they would have been gone from 96 to 01 or something, as any band of that era was losing ground (the reunion saved them from that) but by the new millenium and specially this last ten years, nostalgia (and again, Kiss has the songs to back it up) is big and they would have a kind of resurgence.
Really, it's almost funny that people talks Kiss as if it were Autograph or something. No clue at all.
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Re: KISS was going out of business in 1994
Sure, occasionally a few favors might've been thrown their way (such as the PJ example), and perhaps they'd have a lifeline doing package tours, but Kiss' days of touring as the main draw were all but done. That era was barely hanging onto fans at their peak, never mind what'd be in store for them from 1996 and onward.Alejandro wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:09 am Anyone that says that Kiss was going to go out of business from 94 onwards without the reunion doesn't know anything about the music business.
Any band with more than two hits (and yes, Kiss has more than two "hits") + a strong fan base (maybe not that big in 94, but you can't deny that was strong) + any mid-size manager (doesn't even have to be a top-shelf one) that knows the business would run Kiss smoothly.
Festivals, package tours -and I don't mean KISS/Enuff Znuff co-headlining, more than Kiss/Judas Priest Kiss/Motley Crue-, hell even a special guest appareance as opening act of stadums for Pearl Jam or something, playing the "influence" card,
still big places around the world, would have the band making good business.
Besides, maybe they would have been gone from 96 to 01 or something, as any band of that era was losing ground (the reunion saved them from that) but by the new millenium and specially this last ten years, nostalgia (and again, Kiss has the songs to back it up) is big and they would have a kind of resurgence.
Really, it's almost funny that people talks Kiss as if it were Autograph or something. No clue at all.
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Re: KISS was going out of business in 1994
Maiden (Blaze era) played the Birch Hill Night Club in NJ (once) back in the 90's.
They even did a meet and greet at the local mall by me (on the day of the show).
The Scorpions played there too. There was a line from the front of the club that
practically went down the highway. I think that was around 93/94.
They even did a meet and greet at the local mall by me (on the day of the show).
The Scorpions played there too. There was a line from the front of the club that
practically went down the highway. I think that was around 93/94.
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Re: KISS was going out of business in 1994
Paul changed his vocal technique back to how he did things in the 70s, which ruined his voice slowly over time then all at once. His vocals likely wouldn't be as bad if they hadn't reunited.joma5477 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:08 amI don't believe that. I don't think they could get away with lip synching if not for the huge spectacle that is a KISS show. And I don't think they could afford a huge spectacle with a Revenge, no-makeup lineup.nibbler1982 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 6:31 am With no reunion a Revenge lineup would still be touring today. How successful?
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Re: KISS was going out of business in 1994
Seems to me, Paul started changing his vocal style in '79 and on doing all kinds of ridiculous vocal gymnastics...going back to his early 70s style should have helped his cause. Mind you, his between song raps are another story, but I don't think he went back to anything there...he went more obnoxious than ever.LordThurisaz wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:47 amPaul changed his vocal technique back to how he did things in the 70s, which ruined his voice slowly over time then all at once. His vocals likely wouldn't be as bad if they hadn't reunited.joma5477 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:08 amI don't believe that. I don't think they could get away with lip synching if not for the huge spectacle that is a KISS show. And I don't think they could afford a huge spectacle with a Revenge, no-makeup lineup.nibbler1982 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 6:31 am With no reunion a Revenge lineup would still be touring today. How successful?
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Re: KISS was going out of business in 1994
KISS were bleeding money - you know that right? Paul also had a divorce to look forward to that was going to financially devastate him.Alejandro wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:09 am Anyone that says that Kiss was going to go out of business from 94 onwards without the reunion doesn't know anything about the music business.
Any band with more than two hits (and yes, Kiss has more than two "hits") + a strong fan base (maybe not that big in 94, but you can't deny that was strong) + any mid-size manager (doesn't even have to be a top-shelf one) that knows the business would run Kiss smoothly.
Festivals, package tours -and I don't mean KISS/Enuff Znuff co-headlining, more than Kiss/Judas Priest Kiss/Motley Crue-, hell even a special guest appareance as opening act of stadums for Pearl Jam or something, playing the "influence" card,
still big places around the world, would have the band making good business.
Besides, maybe they would have been gone from 96 to 01 or something, as any band of that era was losing ground (the reunion saved them from that) but by the new millenium and specially this last ten years, nostalgia (and again, Kiss has the songs to back it up) is big and they would have a kind of resurgence.
Really, it's almost funny that people talks Kiss as if it were Autograph or something. No clue at all.
KISS don't really have "hits" per se compared to most bands that have definitive hits that are the soundtrack to people lives. Rock And Roll All Nite, Beth, I Was Made and Heaven's On Fire was not going to sustain KISS. Carnival Of Souls was going to be an embarrassing bomb.
Did you just become a KISS fan last week? Paul and Gene are not going to want to open for anyone or take pity guest appearance slots.
The reality is this - if Paul and Gene felt there was ANY scenario (including the ones you are suggesting) that could have kept the money coming in to keep up their accustomed to lifestyle and maintain KISS' status - without the need to do a reunion tour, they would have done exactly that.
Paul and Gene were drowning and the reunion tour was going to save them.
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Re: KISS was going out of business in 1994
When he was doing all of those "vocal gymnastics," he was actually using correct technique, not screeching, wailing, and screaming to reach high notes. He also didn't seem to screech as much (or at all) during his raps between songs. With his singing, he went back to his 70s style, which utilized poor techniques to hit higher registers. There used to be a video on YouTube that highlighted how his technique changed over the decades, and pointed out that he went back to a more damaging vocal style during the Reunion. I seem to remember watching some shows from the Reunion to Farewell time period where his voice started to sound hoarse.joma5477 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 8:10 am Seems to me, Paul started changing his vocal style in '79 and on doing all kinds of ridiculous vocal gymnastics...going back to his early 70s style should have helped his cause. Mind you, his between song raps are another story, but I don't think he went back to anything there...he went more obnoxious than ever.
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Re: KISS was going out of business in 1994
No one here is talking about Gene and Paul being homeless and eating at soup kitchens. That said, KISS, as we knew it (big time platinum arena touring act) was going broke as a big profit generating enterprise at that time. For high rollers like Gene and Paul who’s large egos required a suitably large lifestyle, they were about to have to make some severe, and I mean severe, cutbacks. The big time KISS machine was on its last legs. The reunion was not only the silver bullet for their problems, but made them much richer than they had ever been….as this time…KISS Company (P&G) was 100% in control of the $…No Glickman Marks, no Aucoin Mgt, nada. Their fan base had shitloads of money to throw at them and did so in spades. KISS was reborn.Alejandro wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:09 am Anyone that says that Kiss was going to go out of business from 94 onwards without the reunion doesn't know anything about the music business.
Any band with more than two hits (and yes, Kiss has more than two "hits") + a strong fan base (maybe not that big in 94, but you can't deny that was strong) + any mid-size manager (doesn't even have to be a top-shelf one) that knows the business would run Kiss smoothly.
Festivals, package tours -and I don't mean KISS/Enuff Znuff co-headlining, more than Kiss/Judas Priest Kiss/Motley Crue-, hell even a special guest appareance as opening act of stadums for Pearl Jam or something, playing the "influence" card,
still big places around the world, would have the band making good business.
Besides, maybe they would have been gone from 96 to 01 or something, as any band of that era was losing ground (the reunion saved them from that) but by the new millenium and specially this last ten years, nostalgia (and again, Kiss has the songs to back it up) is big and they would have a kind of resurgence.
Really, it's almost funny that people talks Kiss as if it were Autograph or something. No clue at all.
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Re: KISS was going out of business in 1994
Grand Classic wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 8:10 amKISS were bleeding money - you know that right? Paul also had a divorce to look forward to that was going to financially devastate him.Alejandro wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:09 am Anyone that says that Kiss was going to go out of business from 94 onwards without the reunion doesn't know anything about the music business.
Any band with more than two hits (and yes, Kiss has more than two "hits") + a strong fan base (maybe not that big in 94, but you can't deny that was strong) + any mid-size manager (doesn't even have to be a top-shelf one) that knows the business would run Kiss smoothly.
Festivals, package tours -and I don't mean KISS/Enuff Znuff co-headlining, more than Kiss/Judas Priest Kiss/Motley Crue-, hell even a special guest appareance as opening act of stadums for Pearl Jam or something, playing the "influence" card,
still big places around the world, would have the band making good business.
Besides, maybe they would have been gone from 96 to 01 or something, as any band of that era was losing ground (the reunion saved them from that) but by the new millenium and specially this last ten years, nostalgia (and again, Kiss has the songs to back it up) is big and they would have a kind of resurgence.
Really, it's almost funny that people talks Kiss as if it were Autograph or something. No clue at all.
KISS don't really have "hits" per se compared to most bands that have definitive hits that are the soundtrack to people lives. Rock And Roll All Nite, Beth, I Was Made and Heaven's On Fire was not going to sustain KISS. Carnival Of Souls was going to be an embarrassing bomb.
Did you just become a KISS fan last week? Paul and Gene are not going to want to open for anyone or take pity guest appearance slots.
The reality is this - if Paul and Gene felt there was ANY scenario (including the ones you are suggesting) that could have kept the money coming in to keep up their accustomed to lifestyle and maintain KISS' status - without the need to do a reunion tour, they would have done exactly that.
Paul and Gene were drowning and the reunion tour was going to save them.
Gene and Paul were the same people that played with Gin Blossons on national TV, and the same people that let a kid drum for them on a song in a ballroom tour and charge a lot (for the time) . Of course they were going to open stadium for Pearl Jam if it were a good business move.
Remember Van Halen (a much smaller band than Kiss outside the us, was opening for Bon Jovi with Hagar and was third on the bill on festivals with Cherone)
They are working people, as they were in the 80s taking off the makeup, trying to be Bon Jovi or getting a goatee when the guys from Pantera had them). They were not drowning, in fact, they were in 95 a little better than they were in 93 (Unplugged, STP, Pj, Melvis etc etc saying they were an influence)
Besides, a career is not always just selling tickets.
Of course, having said that, I agree with you, Carnival of Souls would not be a record that would sell. And I agree with you (and with myself ha) that being ego driven an business men, the reunion was the best step. All the other scenarios are just speculations. They did what they had to do.
And yes, Kiss has hits. Songs that stand the test of time (RNRAN, DRC, HOF, LIU, Forever even Crazy crazy nights would have given them a carrer)
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Re: KISS was going out of business in 1994
They were right to do the Reunion of course, I agree. But let's look at this:70skid wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:15 amNo one here is talking about Gene and Paul being homeless and eating at soup kitchens. That said, KISS, as we knew it (big time platinum arena touring act) was going broke as a big profit generating enterprise at that time. For high rollers like Gene and Paul who’s large egos required a suitably large lifestyle, they were about to have to make some severe, and I mean severe, cutbacks. The big time KISS machine was on its last legs. The reunion was not only the silver bullet for their problems, but made them much richer than they had ever been….as this time…KISS Company (P&G) was 100% in control of the $…No Glickman Marks, no Aucoin Mgt, nada. Their fan base had shitloads of money to throw at them and did so in spades. KISS was reborn.Alejandro wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:09 am Anyone that says that Kiss was going to go out of business from 94 onwards without the reunion doesn't know anything about the music business.
Any band with more than two hits (and yes, Kiss has more than two "hits") + a strong fan base (maybe not that big in 94, but you can't deny that was strong) + any mid-size manager (doesn't even have to be a top-shelf one) that knows the business would run Kiss smoothly.
Festivals, package tours -and I don't mean KISS/Enuff Znuff co-headlining, more than Kiss/Judas Priest Kiss/Motley Crue-, hell even a special guest appareance as opening act of stadums for Pearl Jam or something, playing the "influence" card,
still big places around the world, would have the band making good business.
Besides, maybe they would have been gone from 96 to 01 or something, as any band of that era was losing ground (the reunion saved them from that) but by the new millenium and specially this last ten years, nostalgia (and again, Kiss has the songs to back it up) is big and they would have a kind of resurgence.
Really, it's almost funny that people talks Kiss as if it were Autograph or something. No clue at all.
Foreigner (I repeat fucking Foreigner WITHOUT any original member let alone the original singer) play for more than 6 thousand people at night in 2021 and they tour all year round and make profit.
Maybe because I'm not from the US, but Foreigner all around the world is twenty times a smaller band than Kiss. Case closed.
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Re: KISS was going out of business in 1994
Like our friend Red describes above , Maiden were indeed playing clubs - the stage in the clip from Florida 1996 is very small - it blew my mind when i saw it- i dont think Eddie even came out that i could see when i skimmed through - I don't know if it's ok to post a link & don't wanna break any rules but if you go to YouTube & search "Iron Maiden Live In Florida USA 1996 HD (Full Concert)" it pops up-redinthesky wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:42 pmThe Academy was a little less but for the most part yes, like I said big clubs. Kind of how the old Ritz was always known as a club, but was huge inside and many big names always played (including both Bruce's Maiden and Kiss warming up for tours). Not sure what defines "club," maybe where you have to stand. You can squeeze a lot of people shoulder to shoulder in a huge room on the main floor. I didn't mean to make it sound like Maiden was down and out without Bruce but they did go through a downgrade in popularity. But at least Maiden still was "Maiden" - I still don't believe Kiss touring for CoS would have been even Maiden/Blaze successful in most places. Just IMO.B5Erik wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:03 pmWhat was the capacity in those, "Clubs?" 1,800? 2,000+ maybe?redinthesky wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:07 pmActually Erik, Maiden (who I like a lot, seen them a number of times) did go down to clubs after Bruce left (big clubs though). Here in NYC for example, they played The Academy, and other shows on that tour were Hammerjack's in Baltimore and Electric Factory in Philly. Some of the American venues even had the word "club" in their title, like Birch Hill Night Club in New Jersey and Odeon Concert Club in Cleveland. Their next US tour also was full of the same and similar venues, like Roseland Ballroom in NYC.
I've often wondered if Polygram would've released Carnival of Souls if not for the reunion tour - most of the hard rock/metal bands had been dropped by the majors in the mid 90's and had moved over to the CMC International label based out of NC - Maiden, Priest & Motorhead all were on that label at the time-
(On another unrelated note -I've grown to appreciate the X-Factor - at the time I didn't know what to think of it - but I definitely like it more than Fear of the Dark - I even like most of the 2nd one with Blaze)
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Re: KISS was going out of business in 1994
They may have been over as a arena headlining act, but no way they were going out of business. Could easily play 3-4K seaters for the next 5-10 years living off the past and with their hardcore fans supporting them. Would not be have 1M gates anymore, but with lower overhead and expensive tickets could have marched on until at least 2010. I do agree if there was no reunion they would most likely be retired by now though.
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Re: KISS was going out of business in 1994
You nailed it Brother Alejandro.Alejandro wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:08 pmThey were right to do the Reunion of course, I agree. But let's look at this:70skid wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:15 amNo one here is talking about Gene and Paul being homeless and eating at soup kitchens. That said, KISS, as we knew it (big time platinum arena touring act) was going broke as a big profit generating enterprise at that time. For high rollers like Gene and Paul who’s large egos required a suitably large lifestyle, they were about to have to make some severe, and I mean severe, cutbacks. The big time KISS machine was on its last legs. The reunion was not only the silver bullet for their problems, but made them much richer than they had ever been….as this time…KISS Company (P&G) was 100% in control of the $…No Glickman Marks, no Aucoin Mgt, nada. Their fan base had shitloads of money to throw at them and did so in spades. KISS was reborn.Alejandro wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:09 am Anyone that says that Kiss was going to go out of business from 94 onwards without the reunion doesn't know anything about the music business.
Any band with more than two hits (and yes, Kiss has more than two "hits") + a strong fan base (maybe not that big in 94, but you can't deny that was strong) + any mid-size manager (doesn't even have to be a top-shelf one) that knows the business would run Kiss smoothly.
Festivals, package tours -and I don't mean KISS/Enuff Znuff co-headlining, more than Kiss/Judas Priest Kiss/Motley Crue-, hell even a special guest appareance as opening act of stadums for Pearl Jam or something, playing the "influence" card,
still big places around the world, would have the band making good business.
Besides, maybe they would have been gone from 96 to 01 or something, as any band of that era was losing ground (the reunion saved them from that) but by the new millenium and specially this last ten years, nostalgia (and again, Kiss has the songs to back it up) is big and they would have a kind of resurgence.
Really, it's almost funny that people talks Kiss as if it were Autograph or something. No clue at all.
Foreigner (I repeat fucking Foreigner WITHOUT any original member let alone the original singer) play for more than 6 thousand people at night in 2021 and they tour all year round and make profit.
Maybe because I'm not from the US, but Foreigner all around the world is twenty times a smaller band than Kiss. Case closed.
There are MANY MANY bands that never had KISS’ heights that are still doing very well on the theater circuit. KISS had many options but none of them being nearly as lucrative as the Reunion.
They had Ace & Peter over a barrel a took advantage of it. They had a four way reunion with profits divided by two. What could be better? It was CLEARLY the best option available.
Even better yet...fast forward a few years and they were able to usurp Ace’s Spaceman character. Icing on the cake you might say. Over and done.
Undoubtedly the best play but other options were always available. To think that KISS would just be gone is preposterous. Nobody just disappears.
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Re: KISS was going out of business in 1994
It's not very often I agree with B5 and Nibbs, but they are correct here (except for Erick on JP and IM and clubs, they were most certainly club bands with their respective lead singers throughout the mid-late 90's and beyond for Priest.) These folks that think Gene and Paul would've been broke and living on the streets have apparently not seen how well Kevin Cronin and Jack Blades are living. Alice Cooper and Foreigner are getting HUGE guarantees at theatres and mid-size ampitheaters. KISS would most certainly have been somewhere in that ballpark. Probably lots of package tours with some of the aforementioned bands. Hell, it may have been better in terms of quality.
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Re: KISS was going out of business in 1994
KISS couldn't have done the small theater gig and made it work. The reason being that, for a lot of people, the stage show, bombast, explosions, big logo, etc. are as much (if not more so) apart of what makes them who they are as the songs, Gene, and Paul.nibbler1982 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:52 pm You nailed it Brother Alejandro.
There are MANY MANY bands that never had KISS’ heights that are still doing very well on the theater circuit. KISS had many options but none of them being nearly as lucrative as the Reunion.
They had Ace & Peter over a barrel a took advantage of it. They had a four way reunion with profits divided by two. What could be better? It was CLEARLY the best option available.
Even better yet...fast forward a few years and they were able to usurp Ace’s Spaceman character. Icing on the cake you might say. Over and done.
Undoubtedly the best play but other options were always available. To think that KISS would just be gone is preposterous. Nobody just disappears.
With that in mind, if that is what KISS is to people, then no KISS would not still be a thing. The people involved might have still toured as a group named KISS, but it wouldn't have been what KISS always was, which is larger than life performances with music, bombs, and the works.
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Re: KISS was going out of business in 1994
Absolutely right.LordThurisaz wrote: ↑Sat Jun 26, 2021 8:28 pmKISS couldn't have done the small theater gig and made it work. The reason being that, for a lot of people, the stage show, bombast, explosions, big logo, etc. are as much (if not more so) apart of what makes them who they are as the songs, Gene, and Paul.nibbler1982 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:52 pm You nailed it Brother Alejandro.
There are MANY MANY bands that never had KISS’ heights that are still doing very well on the theater circuit. KISS had many options but none of them being nearly as lucrative as the Reunion.
They had Ace & Peter over a barrel a took advantage of it. They had a four way reunion with profits divided by two. What could be better? It was CLEARLY the best option available.
Even better yet...fast forward a few years and they were able to usurp Ace’s Spaceman character. Icing on the cake you might say. Over and done.
Undoubtedly the best play but other options were always available. To think that KISS would just be gone is preposterous. Nobody just disappears.
With that in mind, if that is what KISS is to people, then no KISS would not still be a thing. The people involved might have still toured as a group named KISS, but it wouldn't have been what KISS always was, which is larger than life performances with music, bombs, and the works.
Many of these other bands that people are bringing up here are comparing apples to oranges - they had ACTUAL hit songs that are STILL hit songs and were known for their good songwriting. KISS is that not that. They are known for the show and spectacle - be it the makeup era or the unmasked era.
KISS are not Journey. KISS are not Foreigner. People know the full set list of most of these greatest hits nostalgia tours. Most people couldn't name 5 KISS songs.
So yes, it would look pretty pathetic if the announcer says - you wanted the best, you got the best....and it is this massively scaled down show, which is what it would have to be since they didn't have the money to maintain KISS on a larger scale - especially when Carnival was going to bomb.
Gene and Paul know this. Some fans here are truly delusional.
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Re: KISS was going out of business in 1994
It’s not though. They had way more popular songs and radio play than KISS ever did.
Double Vision is SEVEN platinum in the USA. Follow up Head Games is five platinum. Foreigner 4 is six platinum. Those three albums right there have sold more than every KISS album put together!
Then Records (greatest hits comp) is ANOTHER seven million! Next studio album, another three million.
You’re clueless if you think KISS has sold more albums than Foreigner.
- 70skid
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Re: KISS was going out of business in 1994
REO, Foreigner, Night Ranger, etc. have full catalogues of broad appealing hit songs. These hit songs include sing-a-long power ballads galore….the middle aged woman appealers. That is attractive to the organizers of fairs and festivals…..because they have broad appeal. The crowd doesn’t care what band members are there…they are there to hear live music that they can sing along with. The average citizen knows KISS for Rock And Roll All Night…..which wasn’t even a hit…but more of a trademark song.alanrosembung wrote: ↑Sun Jun 27, 2021 5:18 amIt’s not though. They had way more popular songs and radio play than KISS ever did.
Double Vision is SEVEN platinum in the USA. Follow up Head Games is five platinum. Foreigner 4 is six platinum. Those three albums right there have sold more than every KISS album put together!
Then Records (greatest hits comp) is ANOTHER seven million! Next studio album, another three million.
You’re clueless if you think KISS has sold more albums than Foreigner.
- nibbler1982
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Re: KISS was going out of business in 1994
While I respect your opinion the data tells us otherwise.LordThurisaz wrote: ↑Sat Jun 26, 2021 8:28 pmKISS couldn't have done the small theater gig and made it work. The reason being that, for a lot of people, the stage show, bombast, explosions, big logo, etc. are as much (if not more so) apart of what makes them who they are as the songs, Gene, and Paul.nibbler1982 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:52 pm You nailed it Brother Alejandro.
There are MANY MANY bands that never had KISS’ heights that are still doing very well on the theater circuit. KISS had many options but none of them being nearly as lucrative as the Reunion.
They had Ace & Peter over a barrel a took advantage of it. They had a four way reunion with profits divided by two. What could be better? It was CLEARLY the best option available.
Even better yet...fast forward a few years and they were able to usurp Ace’s Spaceman character. Icing on the cake you might say. Over and done.
Undoubtedly the best play but other options were always available. To think that KISS would just be gone is preposterous. Nobody just disappears.
With that in mind, if that is what KISS is to people, then no KISS would not still be a thing. The people involved might have still toured as a group named KISS, but it wouldn't have been what KISS always was, which is larger than life performances with music, bombs, and the works.
A makeup-less KISS minus the stage show draws as follows…
LICK IT UP TOUR - 5,052
ANIMALIZE TOUR - 6,209
ASYLUM TOUR - 6,181
CRAZY NIGHTS TOUR - 5,691
HOT IN THE SHADE TOUR - 6,589
REVENGE TOUR - 5,029
KISS has a die hard fanbase that will always bring “X” amount of people to the shows.
I’ve been to over 1,500 concerts in my life. I’ve followed the trajectory and peaks & valleys a myriad of bands. At a bare minimum KISS would be doing no worse than bands like Judas Priest, Steve Miller Band, and ZZ Top.
It’s the “KISS would cease to exist” mentality that I can’t understand. Case in point…
Ace Frehley’s draw is absolutely anemic. If you take a list of venues he plays and stack him up against all shows at said venue he’d come in dead last. If roll Ace in shit he can’t draw flies. Yet somehow he still exists but KISS would’ve been put out to pasture???
Alice Cooper has been dismissed from arenas for over thirty years. His current stage show is a joke. It looks like a high school production. Yet he will ALWAYS have a diehard fanbase that will allow him to fill up theaters as often as he wishes.
Revenge lineup KISS will crush Alice Cooper in ANY and EVERY alternate universe you can think of.
- Grand Classic
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Re: KISS was going out of business in 1994
Why is it so fucking hard for some KISS fans like Nibbler to understand that Paul and Gene don't want grind it out on a much smaller scale - which they would have to do supporting albums like Carnival and any follow ups that would bomb.
There is a universe of difference between the 80's and albums that did decently and KISS were considered cool to a new era of fans in addition to the fans from the 70's that stuck around vs. the 90's when KISS couldn't be more uncool, they were bleeding money and Paul and Gene were starting to drown in relation to the lifestyle and level of KISS that they have been accustomed to.
If any other scenario was possible to remain successful - like those that Nibbler and others laughably suggest, they would have done it. You Wanted The Best You Got The Best wasn't going to work with Paul and Gene slumming it with shows that wouldn't even be close to the levels of what KISS was known for, so they did the ONLY thing that could save them - the reunion.
The absolute delusion from some people on this board is at levels where they need professional help.
There is a universe of difference between the 80's and albums that did decently and KISS were considered cool to a new era of fans in addition to the fans from the 70's that stuck around vs. the 90's when KISS couldn't be more uncool, they were bleeding money and Paul and Gene were starting to drown in relation to the lifestyle and level of KISS that they have been accustomed to.
If any other scenario was possible to remain successful - like those that Nibbler and others laughably suggest, they would have done it. You Wanted The Best You Got The Best wasn't going to work with Paul and Gene slumming it with shows that wouldn't even be close to the levels of what KISS was known for, so they did the ONLY thing that could save them - the reunion.
The absolute delusion from some people on this board is at levels where they need professional help.
- LordThurisaz
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Re: KISS was going out of business in 1994
Minus the stage show? Uhhh, what? Do you think they could've afforded to put on stage sets like this in small theaters? C'mon now, you know they wouldn't have been able to.nibbler1982 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 27, 2021 9:06 am While I respect your opinion the data tells us otherwise.
A makeup-less KISS minus the stage show draws as follows…
LICK IT UP TOUR - 5,052
ANIMALIZE TOUR - 6,209
ASYLUM TOUR - 6,181
CRAZY NIGHTS TOUR - 5,691
HOT IN THE SHADE TOUR - 6,589
REVENGE TOUR - 5,029
KISS has a die hard fanbase that will always bring “X” amount of people to the shows.
I’ve been to over 1,500 concerts in my life. I’ve followed the trajectory and peaks & valleys a myriad of bands. At a bare minimum KISS would be doing no worse than bands like Judas Priest, Steve Miller Band, and ZZ Top.
It’s the “KISS would cease to exist” mentality that I can’t understand. Case in point…
Ace Frehley’s draw is absolutely anemic. If you take a list of venues he plays and stack him up against all shows at said venue he’d come in dead last. If roll Ace in shit he can’t draw flies. Yet somehow he still exists but KISS would’ve been put out to pasture???
Alice Cooper has been dismissed from arenas for over thirty years. His current stage show is a joke. It looks like a high school production. Yet he will ALWAYS have a diehard fanbase that will allow him to fill up theaters as often as he wishes.
Revenge lineup KISS will crush Alice Cooper in ANY and EVERY alternate universe you can think of.
- ClevelandRocker
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Re: KISS was going out of business in 1994
Iron Maiden played the Masquerade Club in Atlanta Georgia with a capacity crowd was only a thousand peopleB5Erik wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:03 pmWhat was the capacity in those, "Clubs?" 1,800? 2,000+ maybe?redinthesky wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:07 pmActually Erik, Maiden (who I like a lot, seen them a number of times) did go down to clubs after Bruce left (big clubs though). Here in NYC for example, they played The Academy, and other shows on that tour were Hammerjack's in Baltimore and Electric Factory in Philly. Some of the American venues even had the word "club" in their title, like Birch Hill Night Club in New Jersey and Odeon Concert Club in Cleveland. Their next US tour also was full of the same and similar venues, like Roseland Ballroom in NYC.B5Erik wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:39 amReally, did Judas Priest and Iron Maiden ever play clubs? Even with their replacement singers in the most hostile era towards their music?Vandelay Industries wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:01 am They'd be playing clubs and theaters, and P&G would be telling the media how their audience has become more selective.
No. Not even close.
I saw Maiden in San Diego in 1998 as the San Diego State Open Air Amphitheater. Sold out. Over 4,200 people there. They played the Universal Amphitheater in Hollywood that week as well, if I remember correctly.
Not exactly clubs.
Paul and Gene were always good at finding ways to make things work. In 1983, when the U.S. Tour was doing weak business (although still averaging 4,000+) they hit South America and played stadiums.
Like I said before, Grunge bands like Pearl Jam and Soundgarden were citing KISS as an influence, giving them greater credibility with the younger fans, and they still had two decades of fans to market to as well.
It wouldn't have been huge, but most bands 15+ years into their career who are still together are usually in far worse shape than KISS would have been in.
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Re: KISS was going out of business in 1994
I might be in the minority, but I would have been okay with KISS being a theater act in the mid-90s and beyond.
Good seat, affordable ticket, extended setlist to compensate for the lack of a big production - sounds fine to me.
I don't care about pretty lights - I want to hear Watchin' You and Mr Speed or whatever.
Good seat, affordable ticket, extended setlist to compensate for the lack of a big production - sounds fine to me.
I don't care about pretty lights - I want to hear Watchin' You and Mr Speed or whatever.
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Re: KISS was going out of business in 1994
And they probably could have played a larger venue and sold it out, just like they did in San Diego (4,800+).ClevelandRocker wrote: ↑Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:13 pm
Iron Maiden played the Masquerade Club in Atlanta Georgia with a capacity crowd was only a thousand peopleimg.jpeg
Some promoters were gunshy due to the Grunge Anti-Metal backlash. They used caution in booking bands, when sometimes they didn't have to.
Although, Blaze went over like a lead balloon with Maiden fans, so it's not crazy that promoters might have read about all the fan backlash to those albums and that line-up and just assumed they wouldn't go to the shows. A wrong assumption.
- Grand Classic
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Re: KISS was going out of business in 1994
You wouldn't get that. They would be overcompensating for the lack of what KISS are known for and would be trying to stuff every show with anything even remotely familiar to the general public, especially considering the fact that new KISS albums would be bombing from this point on.sabresaxon wrote: ↑Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:48 pm I might be in the minority, but I would have been okay with KISS being a theater act in the mid-90s and beyond.
Good seat, affordable ticket, extended setlist to compensate for the lack of a big production - sounds fine to me.
I don't care about pretty lights - I want to hear Watchin' You and Mr Speed or whatever.
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Re: KISS was going out of business in 1994
Yes you're probably right. But more songs is always preferable (even shit like IWMFLY) to fireworks and flames (which I don't particularly crave).Grand Classic wrote: ↑Sun Jun 27, 2021 4:03 pmYou wouldn't get that. They would be overcompensating for the lack of what KISS are known for and would be trying to stuff every show with anything even remotely familiar to the general public, especially considering the fact that new KISS albums would be bombing from this point on.sabresaxon wrote: ↑Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:48 pm I might be in the minority, but I would have been okay with KISS being a theater act in the mid-90s and beyond.
Good seat, affordable ticket, extended setlist to compensate for the lack of a big production - sounds fine to me.
I don't care about pretty lights - I want to hear Watchin' You and Mr Speed or whatever.