Curt Gooch: “Ace & Peter refused INSANE amounts of money”

[misterhand80]

Truth be told....the Ace/Peter solo careers were not even in the same galaxy as KISS pre reunion and it's still that way now

Ace got close when you look at 93-95 for KISS but the rest of the time you’re absolutely right.

No Ace was not.close. I saw him play in an old bowling alley in St. Louis in 1994

Sorry not side by side at the same time, Ace has had high points equal to KISS 93-95

Please list those high points that "got close" to KISS (circa 93-95)

[nibbler1982]

It appears opinions differ wildly on how much leverage each side had in negotiations on the Reunion era. People are certainly entitled to their opinion.

While there really is no way to predict “what if” scenarios we do know facts.

We full well know that when negotiations began in 1995 Paul Frehley and Peter Criscuola were no longer officers in company and band known as KISS. The had sold their stake long ago.

How could anyone possibly think that their leverage wasn’t severely neutered by this fact?

Ignorance perhaps?

When Cheap Trick decided to unceremoniously oust Bun E Carlos from the band he took them to court. Being a full one quarter member the courts IMMEDIATELY sided with Bun E. As they should. His leverage was as strong as the other three members. Even that he was outvoted 3 to 1 he was still entitled to his twenty five percent. They were all on equal footing.

He still gets paid as a one quarter member of the corporation to this very day.

As he should.

Ace and Peter were just two guys applying for a job.

[Grand Classic]

It appears opinions differ wildly on how much leverage each side had in negotiations on the Reunion era. People are certainly entitled to their opinion.

While there really is no way to predict “what if” scenarios we do know facts.

We full well know that when negotiations began in 1995 Paul Frehley and Peter Criscuola were no longer officers in company and band known as KISS. The had sold their stake long ago.

How could anyone possibly think that their leverage wasn’t severely neutered by this fact?

Ignorance perhaps?

When Cheap Trick decided to unceremoniously oust Bun E Carlos from the band he took them to court. Being a full one quarter member the courts IMMEDIATELY sided with Bun E. As they should. His leverage was as strong as the other three members. Even that he was outvoted 3 to 1 he was still entitled to his twenty five percent. They were all on equal footing.

He still gets paid as a one quarter member of the corporation to this very day.

As he should.

Ace and Peter were just two guys applying for a job.

The leverage Ace and Peter had is that if they said no - Paul (especially with his divorce) and Gene would have been fucked. KISS was on a sinking ship. There was no path where they could have remained financially successful and in the spotlight continuing the Eric and Bruce years.

So had Ace and Peter had better representation, who properly investigated Gene and Paul's finances and the state of KISS and informed Ace and Peter of their findings - they would be in a far better place to play hardball with Gene and Paul.

[So Cruel]

It appears opinions differ wildly on how much leverage each side had in negotiations on the Reunion era. People are certainly entitled to their opinion.

While there really is no way to predict “what if” scenarios we do know facts.

We full well know that when negotiations began in 1995 Paul Frehley and Peter Criscuola were no longer officers in company and band known as KISS. The had sold their stake long ago.

How could anyone possibly think that their leverage wasn’t severely neutered by this fact?

Ignorance perhaps?

When Cheap Trick decided to unceremoniously oust Bun E Carlos from the band he took them to court. Being a full one quarter member the courts IMMEDIATELY sided with Bun E. As they should. His leverage was as strong as the other three members. Even that he was outvoted 3 to 1 he was still entitled to his twenty five percent. They were all on equal footing.

He still gets paid as a one quarter member of the corporation to this very day.

As he should.

Ace and Peter were just two guys applying for a job.

It’s not as simple as “Ace and Peter were just two guys applying for a job.” For the reunion to take place they were the only guys who could do the job! That right there gives them some leverage.

All 4 needed the reunion. Obviously Gene and Paul as owners were in a better position, but Ace’s and Peter’s representation could have done better for them. For one, Ace truly should have leased the makeup, not sold it. Secondly, they should have went for profit sharing on top of their salaries, so if the tour exploded like it did they took part of that upside. Something simple like that could have kept everyone happy. Gene and Paul still get the lions share of the profits, but Pete and Ace are taken care of better.

[gene therapist]

Ace & Peter are known to be greedy - every bit as much as Paul and Gene.

Remember how A&P used to whine about the impostors wearing "their" makeup? What they conveniently left out was how they themselves OPTED TO SELL the rights, favoring cash over any romanticized notion of "preserving The Legacy" . The end result being, A&P came across as either incredibly dumb or just incredibly bitter (my guess is it was both).

I doubt Ace, Peter or -- Gene and Paul -- in their wildest imagination could have thought of the makeup designs being used on new musicians. At the time.

No. But A&P surely must have been cognizant of the scope of the deal they signed. They didn't stop and think it through because of... the cash offered? And maybe the drugs they were on.

But it's not like "using the makeup on the coffee boy from the reunion tour" was a bulletpoint in the contract.

Technically speaking it was (along with a million other imaginary bulletpoints), because apparently G&P were granted free rein.

So then we are back where we started:

I doubt Ace, Peter or -- Gene and Paul -- in their wildest imagination could have thought of the makeup designs being used on new musicians. At the time.

Yes but that's beside the point when it comes to A&P's WHINING. By accepting the cash, A&P gave their blessing for G&P to utilize the designs in pretty much any fashion imaginable. And given G&P's (in)famous business "sense" (they can come up with whatever whenever), the whining just made A&P appear simple and bitter, however "justified" the complaints may have been from a fan's perspective.

[nibbler1982]

y

It appears opinions differ wildly on how much leverage each side had in negotiations on the Reunion era. People are certainly entitled to their opinion.

While there really is no way to predict “what if” scenarios we do know facts.

We full well know that when negotiations began in 1995 Paul Frehley and Peter Criscuola were no longer officers in company and band known as KISS. The had sold their stake long ago.

How could anyone possibly think that their leverage wasn’t severely neutered by this fact?

Ignorance perhaps?

When Cheap Trick decided to unceremoniously oust Bun E Carlos from the band he took them to court. Being a full one quarter member the courts IMMEDIATELY sided with Bun E. As they should. His leverage was as strong as the other three members. Even that he was outvoted 3 to 1 he was still entitled to his twenty five percent. They were all on equal footing.

He still gets paid as a one quarter member of the corporation to this very day.

As he should.

Ace and Peter were just two guys applying for a job.

It’s not as simple as “Ace and Peter were just two guys applying for a job.” For the reunion to take place they were the only guys who could do the job! That right there gives them some leverage.

All 4 needed the reunion. Obviously Gene and Paul as owners were in a better position, but Ace’s and Peter’s representation could have done better for them. For one, Ace truly should have leased the makeup, not sold it. Secondly, they should have went for profit sharing on top of their salaries, so if the tour exploded like it did they took part of that upside. Something simple like that could have kept everyone happy. Gene and Paul still get the lions share of the profits, but Pete and Ace are taken care of better.

We don’t know what they tried for during negotiations. For all we know they attempted everything you mentioned and got shot down. I also don’t understand how everyone is so sure they had poor representation. I don’t believe any of that matters. Even if they had a cadre of the best attorneys available they still may have taken what was eventually agreed upon. Let’s look at history.

Ace & Pete have already proven they’ll take the quick money. They were both bought out of the band they were founding members of. At one point everything was split EQUALLY. Anyone worth their salt knows a buyout is more money up front than waiting for it over time. If you wait you’re guaranteed more in the long run. No matter to those two. You see where their heads are at. Why? Who knows. They’re broke? They’re addicts? Maybe they’re just “bird in the hand” type of guys but we’re shown what kind of decision they’re apt to make in this situation.

They were offered the most money they’ve ever seen in their lives. At the lowest point of their lives. Ace was in the full throws of addiction and declaring bankruptcy. Peter was broke and suicidal. They were playing to 300 people a night.

No matter what their attorneys were saying they were in an anemic bargaining position. Nobody can refute any of this. It’s fact.

It’s like some people are awarded a settlement, let’s say $2M. The big business side says, “Well, we’re gonna appeal and keep this in the courts for years. OR....here’s $800,000 cash right now.” A lot of people would take the cash. A lot of people can’t afford not too.

Knowing the positions Ace & Pete put themselves in and their history I’m not even the least bit surprised the piss poor deal they accepted.

[So Cruel]

y

It appears opinions differ wildly on how much leverage each side had in negotiations on the Reunion era. People are certainly entitled to their opinion.

While there really is no way to predict “what if” scenarios we do know facts.

We full well know that when negotiations began in 1995 Paul Frehley and Peter Criscuola were no longer officers in company and band known as KISS. The had sold their stake long ago.

How could anyone possibly think that their leverage wasn’t severely neutered by this fact?

Ignorance perhaps?

When Cheap Trick decided to unceremoniously oust Bun E Carlos from the band he took them to court. Being a full one quarter member the courts IMMEDIATELY sided with Bun E. As they should. His leverage was as strong as the other three members. Even that he was outvoted 3 to 1 he was still entitled to his twenty five percent. They were all on equal footing.

He still gets paid as a one quarter member of the corporation to this very day.

As he should.

Ace and Peter were just two guys applying for a job.

It’s not as simple as “Ace and Peter were just two guys applying for a job.” For the reunion to take place they were the only guys who could do the job! That right there gives them some leverage.

All 4 needed the reunion. Obviously Gene and Paul as owners were in a better position, but Ace’s and Peter’s representation could have done better for them. For one, Ace truly should have leased the makeup, not sold it. Secondly, they should have went for profit sharing on top of their salaries, so if the tour exploded like it did they took part of that upside. Something simple like that could have kept everyone happy. Gene and Paul still get the lions share of the profits, but Pete and Ace are taken care of better.

We don’t know what they tried for during negotiations. For all we know they attempted everything you mentioned and got shot down. I also don’t understand how everyone is so sure they had poor representation. I don’t believe any of that matters. Even if they had a cadre of the best attorneys available they still may have taken what was eventually agreed upon. Let’s look at history.

Ace & Pete have already proven they’ll take the quick money. They were both bought out of the band they were founding members of. At one point everything was split EQUALLY. Anyone worth their salt knows a buyout is more money up front than waiting for it over time. If you wait you’re guaranteed more in the long run. No matter to those two. You see where their heads are at. Why? Who knows. They’re broke? They’re addicts? Maybe they’re just “bird in the hand” type of guys but we’re shown what kind of decision they’re apt to make in this situation.

They were offered the most money they’ve ever seen in their lives. At the lowest point of their lives. Ace was in the full throws of addiction and declaring bankruptcy. Peter was broke and suicidal. They were playing to 300 people a night.

No matter what their attorneys were saying they were in an anemic bargaining position. Nobody can refute any of this. It’s fact.

It’s like some people are awarded a settlement, let’s say $2M. The big business side says, “Well, we’re gonna appeal and keep this in the courts for years. OR....here’s $800,000 cash right now.” A lot of people would take the cash. A lot of people can’t afford not too.

Knowing the positions Ace & Pete put themselves in and their history I’m not even the least bit surprised the piss poor deal they accepted.

I 100% agree they were in dire straits and would eventually end up taking what they could, but I don’t think any of the 4 would have walked away from the reunion. They all needed it. Now who knows how those negotiations went, but if I were in Aces or Peter’s shoes I would have talked to some others in the industry and asked who the best people were to talk to. Somebody like Allen Kovac who was involved with The Eagles and Mötley Crüe. It was to big a deal to go with someone without industry experience and sway. I doubt getting profit sharing would be a deal breaker either, Gene and Paul weren’t gonna walk away as they still would get the lions share of the profit. When it comes to business Ace and Peter were naive and should have had the best representation they could get. Maybe one day Doc will write a book and talk about those negotiations.

[SpinningAcorn]

This is absolutely right.

Even Paul acknowledged that they record label didn't care about KISS and by this time, there were probably looking for any reason to get rid of them - the shitty sales of Carnival would have been that reason if not for the reunion.

Of course KISS had to create their own KISS Records with Roadrunner for Sonic Boom, Gene couldn't get a major deal for Asshole and was on Sanctuary which went bankrupt not too long after and even Paul's Live To Win was moved to a smaller associated label of Universal's - like when Warner Bros moved David Lee Roth to the less successful Reprise Records, because they saw that the writing was on the wall with Dave's career.

Not much has changed - Universal doesn't give a shit about KISS now either. Funny enough, Ace has the best record deal out of all of them with eOne and they seem to actually care about promoting him.

Its really interesting how some think KISS had much leverage at all. 7 years of little income coming in. No real prospects without the reunion. It would have been interesting to see how Gene and Paul spun getting dumped by the label was a good thing.

[nibbler1982]

This is absolutely right.

Even Paul acknowledged that they record label didn't care about KISS and by this time, there were probably looking for any reason to get rid of them - the shitty sales of Carnival would have been that reason if not for the reunion.

Of course KISS had to create their own KISS Records with Roadrunner for Sonic Boom, Gene couldn't get a major deal for Asshole and was on Sanctuary which went bankrupt not too long after and even Paul's Live To Win was moved to a smaller associated label of Universal's - like when Warner Bros moved David Lee Roth to the less successful Reprise Records, because they saw that the writing was on the wall with Dave's career.

Not much has changed - Universal doesn't give a shit about KISS now either. Funny enough, Ace has the best record deal out of all of them with eOne and they seem to actually care about promoting him.

Its really interesting how some think KISS had much leverage at all. 7 years of little income coming in. No real prospects without the reunion. It would have been interesting to see how Gene and Paul spun getting dumped by the label was a good thing.

Take your “7 years of little income coming in” for KISS and tell me how that stacks up against what A&P were earning in that timeframe. Then talk about leverage.

Two Beverly Hills millionaires > two broke addicts in apartments

[SpinningAcorn]

No matter what their attorneys were saying they were in an anemic bargaining position. Nobody can refute any of this. It’s fact.

It’s like some people are awarded a settlement, let’s say $2M. The big business side says, “Well, we’re gonna appeal and keep this in the courts for years. OR....here’s $800,000 cash right now.” A lot of people would take the cash. A lot of people can’t afford not too.

Knowing the positions Ace & Pete put themselves in and their history I’m not even the least bit surprised the piss poor deal they accepted.

There you go again spewing nonsense and your settlement example sucks. In your example the "big company" isn't effected at all.

https://inhabitat.com/edith-macefield-t ... her-house/

Edith is a great example. She refused $1M for her crap house and made them build a mall around here house. She had leverage.

Here's lots of examples of homeowners refusing ridiculous offers so the "big companies" have to build around them:

https://www.happyfacts.me/news/20-brave ... evelopers/


All one has to do is look at the KISS MY *** cover to know the tremendous leverage Ace had against Gene and Paul.
Do you think KISS would have over 2,500 licenses with Dog and Hawk?

Kiss would be without a label, playing the fair circuit with other forgotten acts. Singer probably would have left. Bruce probably would have taken a big pay cut and stayed.

Gene and Paul wouldn't do that for long before they gave in to Peter and especially Ace.

[SpinningAcorn]

Take your “7 years of little income coming in” for KISS and tell me how that stacks up against what A&P were earning in that timeframe. Then talk about leverage.

Two Beverly Hills millionaires > two broke addicts in apartments

And all they had was their homes. Who knows if they had mortgages on them at the time. Of course, you are neglecting all their expenses with those Beverly Hills homes. Property taxes, maids, CA taxes, insurance premiums and all their other costs.

When they've had 7 years of little income. They already sold their royalties so they didn't have that. Paying Bruce and Eric $100K each.

The way you talk Gene and Paul had paid off mansions and had $10M or more in stocks/bonds just sitting there and tons of royalties coming in.

They were about to get booted from their label and no real income streams for 7 years (except for what their manager stole from them).

And they couldn't do the classic stuff because Ace had them by the balls

But Ace had crappy representation. Hell, if they had any real representation, they would have made a loan to Ace and Peter of $100K or more so they could easily hold out.

[nibbler1982]

Take your “7 years of little income coming in” for KISS and tell me how that stacks up against what A&P were earning in that timeframe. Then talk about leverage.

Two Beverly Hills millionaires > two broke addicts in apartments

And all they had was their homes. Who knows if they had mortgages on them at the time. Of course, you are neglecting all their expenses with those Beverly Hills homes. Property taxes, maids, CA taxes, insurance premiums and all their other costs.

When they've had 7 years of little income. They already sold their royalties so they didn't have that. Paying Bruce and Eric $100K each.

The way you talk Gene and Paul had paid off mansions and had $10M or more in stocks/bonds just sitting there and tons of royalties coming in.

They were about to get booted from their label and no real income streams for 7 years (except for what their manager stole from them).

And they couldn't do the classic stuff because Ace had them by the balls

But Ace had crappy representation. Hell, if they had any real representation, they would have made a loan to Ace and Peter of $100K or more so they could easily hold out.

Try to read slower next time.

If you believe KISS was making so little money in that time period.

What was Ace & Peter making?

And even with the seven years of paltry income Paul and Gene were earning they were still able to pay off those Beverly Hills expenses you’ve mentioned.

It’s like you’re shooting down your own asinine comments yourself.

[nibbler1982]

No matter what their attorneys were saying they were in an anemic bargaining position. Nobody can refute any of this. It’s fact.

It’s like some people are awarded a settlement, let’s say $2M. The big business side says, “Well, we’re gonna appeal and keep this in the courts for years. OR....here’s $800,000 cash right now.” A lot of people would take the cash. A lot of people can’t afford not too.

Knowing the positions Ace & Pete put themselves in and their history I’m not even the least bit surprised the piss poor deal they accepted.

There you go again spewing nonsense and your settlement example sucks. In your example the "big company" isn't effected at all.

https://inhabitat.com/edith-macefield-t ... her-house/

Edith is a great example. She refused $1M for her crap house and made them build a mall around here house. She had leverage.

image.png


Here's lots of examples of homeowners refusing ridiculous offers so the "big companies" have to build around them:

https://www.happyfacts.me/news/20-brave ... evelopers/


All one has to do is look at the KISS MY *** cover to know the tremendous leverage Ace had against Gene and Paul.
Do you think KISS would have over 2,500 licenses with Dog and Hawk?

Kiss would be without a label, playing the fair circuit with other forgotten acts. Singer probably would have left. Bruce probably would have taken a big pay cut and stayed.

Gene and Paul wouldn't do that for long before they gave in to Peter and especially Ace.

image.png

You show two examples of good judgment by God knows who and I’ve shown you two addicts who sold their share in a band they were founding members of just for the quick money.

Score one for Nibbs.

[So Cruel]

Gene and Paul may have lived in Beverly Hills in the 80’s/early 90’s but they weren’t rolling in the money. Didn’t Lendt’s book say Paul was leasing a Porsche at that point because he couldn’t afford to buy one?

[nibbler1982]

Gene and Paul may have lived in Beverly Hills in the 80’s/early 90’s but they weren’t rolling in the money. Didn’t Lendt’s book say Paul was leasing a Porsche at that point because he couldn’t afford to buy one?

I don’t remember that story, but fine. Take that at face value.

If that’s true tell me what kind of income Ace & Peter during the same time period.

[SpinningAcorn]

Gene and Paul may have lived in Beverly Hills in the 80’s/early 90’s but they weren’t rolling in the money. Didn’t Lendt’s book say Paul was leasing a Porsche at that point because he couldn’t afford to buy one?

The guy obviously doesn't care about what Gene and Paul's real situation was like. He keeps wanting to talk about Ace and Peter instead of Gene and Paul. Gene and Paul wanted a reunion in 1989. They were desperate for money then. Pretending you are some "successful" rock star requires alot of money. I wouldn't be surprised if they had refinanced their homes just to keep the "lifestyle" going. I doubt they were millionaires at that point on paper.

Ace held the leverage. Sadly, this guy just can't admit he's been terribly wrong.

[SpinningAcorn]

And even with the seven years of paltry income Paul and Gene were earning they were still able to pay off those Beverly Hills expenses you’ve mentioned.

Most likely by refinancing their homes. At some point all that debt comes due and they can't service it anymore.

[sicksickphil]

Ill start with this first.
" Ace should never have to work."
yeah And it is Ace's fault he has to. He made millions with the reunion... in fact MORE THAN PETER WHO HAD TO PAY FOR CANCER TREATMENT. Yet it was Ace who defaulted on a house, still has to work and was begging to get back in Kiss AFTER HE QUIT FOR THE 2nd TIME

"Exactly, what I've been saying. Had they been dropped by their label and COS got released on CMC or Roadrunner they certainly would have been. Grunge fans not liking it nor KISS fans. KISS would have been a theater band / fair act. "

A they weren't dropped by their label and wouldn't have been. B. Cos would never have been released by another label because their label already paid for it. AND it sold around 200k despite being bootlegged and despite that lineup was no more.

" Their top tour from 1990-1995 might be a lackluster 6,500 a night average., "
so they were playing to more people in one night than ace and peter did on their entire bad boys tour.
Also there is a dvd of Nirvana on the Nevermind tour at the Paramount . that place sold out seats less than 3k

"None of what KISS did in the 80's or early 90's mattered"
Except for the Elder all went at least gold and the hits record Smashes is one of their best selling records. its tied with Destroyer .

" And they couldn't put on the classic makeup (w/Ace) until he signed off." Who was was broke and more than willing to sell.

"There's a reason Tiger Stadium sold out in no time. It was because of Ace and Peter."

while they were a small part of that, it was mostly the make up and old fans knowing they wouldn't have to listen to at least half a set of hair metal

" Ace had tremendous leverage. Especially because of his makeup. "
no Ace had no money. he a hard time getting people in a bar, and nobody would have gave him a recording contract and he owed a ton of money

Lets start with your most ridiculous statement.

Except for the Elder all went at least gold and the hits record Smashes is one of their best selling records. its tied with Destroyer .

Wow, they all went gold during a period of incredible airplay on MTV. Like I mentioned, their label mates were going 5X, Diamond or more and KISS was going gold. Gene and Paul were sure showing everyone weren't they?!

And on what planet is "Smashes" one of their top selling albums and it is not tied with Destroyer in actual sales.

And KISS Alive is by far their best selling album:


How Kiss's Alive! Saved Their Record Label—And Changed the Music Industry

https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/629 ... kiss-alive


The relevant part:
Alive! peaked at No. 9 and remained on the charts for the next 110 weeks, becoming the band’s first record to sell more than a million copies. By the end of 1975, major rock bands from Blue Öyster Cult to REO Speedwagon suddenly found themselves opening for Kiss. Today, Alive! has sold more than 9 million copies, making it the biggest selling Kiss album of all time.

Alive! rescued both Kiss and Casablanca from oblivion. The band’s next three albums—Destroyer (1976), Rock and Roll Over (1976), and Love Gun (1977)—were all certified platinum. In 1977, Kiss topped a Gallup poll as the most popular act among American teens.


Over 9M copies of Alive in the US. That is their best selling album.


So when you can't even be accurate about their best selling albums and you want to act like their best selling studio album sold the same as ST&H, you go with that. That belongs on the same planet as KISS not being dropped if they didn't have the reunion.


And let me point out how terrible COS sold. Major label release. Got tons of radio play on Mainstream Rock because KISS had their comeback. But after 2 years, it had sold a pathetic 160K.

Had the reunion not happened, the album would have gotten shelved. KISS would have been dropped. Also, not sure you don't know how the record industry works. KISS' label could have easily rejected the album and then gotten paid back their "advance" on it by withholding royalties until they had recouped. Or they could have chosen to sell the masters to some other label.

image.png

yeah you had stuff like Hysteria which took three years just to record and two producers.
And you had labelmates like scorpions and Cinderella who's sales were much closer to kiss.

" That belongs on the same planet as KISS not being dropped if they didn't have the reunion."

well what did the reunion do ? you got You wanted the Best and Psycho circus - both went gold.

[sicksickphil]

Gene and Paul may have lived in Beverly Hills in the 80’s/early 90’s but they weren’t rolling in the money. Didn’t Lendt’s book say Paul was leasing a Porsche at that point because he couldn’t afford to buy one?

The guy obviously doesn't care about what Gene and Paul's real situation was like. He keeps wanting to talk about Ace and Peter instead of Gene and Paul. Gene and Paul wanted a reunion in 1989. They were desperate for money then. Pretending you are some "successful" rock star requires alot of money. I wouldn't be surprised if they had refinanced their homes just to keep the "lifestyle" going. I doubt they were millionaires at that point on paper.

Ace held the leverage. Sadly, this guy just can't admit he's been terribly wrong.

well it does make a difference what Ace had. Once Ace he files for bankruptcy, ace can't stop his rights to the makeup being sold.

[nibbler1982]

Gene and Paul may have lived in Beverly Hills in the 80’s/early 90’s but they weren’t rolling in the money. Didn’t Lendt’s book say Paul was leasing a Porsche at that point because he couldn’t afford to buy one?

The guy obviously doesn't care about what Gene and Paul's real situation was like. He keeps wanting to talk about Ace and Peter instead of Gene and Paul. Gene and Paul wanted a reunion in 1989. They were desperate for money then. Pretending you are some "successful" rock star requires alot of money. I wouldn't be surprised if they had refinanced their homes just to keep the "lifestyle" going. I doubt they were millionaires at that point on paper.

Ace held the leverage. Sadly, this guy just can't admit he's been terribly wrong.

Somehow an addict playing to 300-400 people a night for the last 15 years can afford to wait out legitimate rock stars with arena tours and gold and platinum albums during that same time span??? Oh, and Paul and Gene aren’t addicts either.

Do you hear the ignorance you’re spinning?

And by the way it’s nice to have you back.

[nibbler1982]

Gene and Paul may have lived in Beverly Hills in the 80’s/early 90’s but they weren’t rolling in the money. Didn’t Lendt’s book say Paul was leasing a Porsche at that point because he couldn’t afford to buy one?

The guy obviously doesn't care about what Gene and Paul's real situation was like. He keeps wanting to talk about Ace and Peter instead of Gene and Paul. Gene and Paul wanted a reunion in 1989. They were desperate for money then. Pretending you are some "successful" rock star requires alot of money. I wouldn't be surprised if they had refinanced their homes just to keep the "lifestyle" going. I doubt they were millionaires at that point on paper.

Ace held the leverage. Sadly, this guy just can't admit he's been terribly wrong.

well it does make a difference what Ace had. Once Ace he files for bankruptcy, ace can't stop his rights to the makeup being sold.

That’s an amazing point which I’ve never even given consideration.

I already know Ace & Peter had next to no leverage at negotiations. That why they ended up with what they did. Water finds its own level.

You’ve opened up my eyes that they had less than eve I thought.

[SpinningAcorn]

[quote=nibbler1982 post_id=3284612 time=1622505579 user_id=4043ptcy, ace can't stop his rights to the makeup being sold.

That’s an amazing point which I’ve never even given consideration.

I already know Ace & Peter had next to no leverage at negotiations. That why they ended up with what they did. Water finds its own level.

You’ve opened up my eyes that they had less than eve I thought.

It shouldn't be under consideration because that was never part of the bankruptcy proceedings. Ace only filed for bankruptcy (to get rid of the IRS money). Ace only filed after the reunion deal was set. Ace never should have been allowed to file Chapter 11.


I wonder how many times you can keep saying "next to no leverage" when Ace had the leverage to keep KISS from doing a reunion and putting out all the classic merchandise. If that's "next to no leverage" I sure don't know what is leverage.


And guess what "no leverage", had those "rights" come up in the bankruptcy trial. They most likely would be put up for auction. If you would have thought things through, you would have known this would have been the worst possible case for KISS. People with actual deep pockets would have been going after them. And Gene and Paul didn't have the money to bid on them. Next time, try thinking things through.

[SpinningAcorn]

yeah you had stuff like Hysteria which took three years just to record and two producers.
And you had labelmates like scorpions and Cinderella who's sales were much closer to kiss.

" That belongs on the same planet as KISS not being dropped if they didn't have the reunion."

well what did the reunion do ? you got You wanted the Best and Psycho circus - both went gold.

Bon Jovi (the group KISS tried to emulate)

Cinderella whose "Night Songs" was already Triple Platinum by 1991. That's 1M more than you claim "Destroyer" sold.


They got a Gold Award for those. And in 10 years, they still didn't sell enough at retail to deserve it.

1996 "MTV Unplugged": 300,000
1996 "You Wanted the Best, You Got the Best!!": 329,000
1997 "Greatest Kiss": 394,000
1997 "Carnival of Souls - The Final Sessions": 175,000
1998 "Psycho Circus": 479,000

"Fake Sales" don't generate royalties or income.

[Thayerscomet]

yeah you had stuff like Hysteria which took three years just to record and two producers.
And you had labelmates like scorpions and Cinderella who's sales were much closer to kiss.

" That belongs on the same planet as KISS not being dropped if they didn't have the reunion."

well what did the reunion do ? you got You wanted the Best and Psycho circus - both went gold.

Bon Jovi (the group KISS tried to emulate)

Cinderella whose "Night Songs" was already Triple Platinum by 1991. That's 1M more than you claim "Destroyer" sold.


They got a Gold Award for those. And in 10 years, they still didn't sell enough at retail to deserve it.

1996 "MTV Unplugged": 300,000
1996 "You Wanted the Best, You Got the Best!!": 329,000
1997 "Greatest Kiss": 394,000
1997 "Carnival of Souls - The Final Sessions": 175,000
1998 "Psycho Circus": 479,000

"Fake Sales" don't generate royalties or income.

Gold album awards are based on sales/shipments minus returns to retail (the stores that buy the cds not the sales to the consumer/fans. its the stores that buy the product that the awards are based on ) soundscan numbers mean nothing when gold and platinum awards are awarded.

[sicksickphil]

yeah you had stuff like Hysteria which took three years just to record and two producers.
And you had labelmates like scorpions and Cinderella who's sales were much closer to kiss.

" That belongs on the same planet as KISS not being dropped if they didn't have the reunion."

well what did the reunion do ? you got You wanted the Best and Psycho circus - both went gold.

Bon Jovi (the group KISS tried to emulate)

Cinderella whose "Night Songs" was already Triple Platinum by 1991. That's 1M more than you claim "Destroyer" sold.


They got a Gold Award for those. And in 10 years, they still didn't sell enough at retail to deserve it.

1996 "MTV Unplugged": 300,000
1996 "You Wanted the Best, You Got the Best!!": 329,000
1997 "Greatest Kiss": 394,000
1997 "Carnival of Souls - The Final Sessions": 175,000
1998 "Psycho Circus": 479,000

"Fake Sales" don't generate royalties or income.

Cinderella Night Songs went three times plat and Smashes went double plat. That is not 10 times as much like you said. And by their third album they just went gold.

[sicksickphil]

yeah you had stuff like Hysteria which took three years just to record and two producers.
And you had labelmates like scorpions and Cinderella who's sales were much closer to kiss.

" That belongs on the same planet as KISS not being dropped if they didn't have the reunion."

well what did the reunion do ? you got You wanted the Best and Psycho circus - both went gold.

Bon Jovi (the group KISS tried to emulate)

Bon Jovi the band that open for kiss because even by their 2nd record they had a hard time selling records ?
While their 3rd and 4th records did do very well. they also cost a lot to make and they weren't putting out albums every year.
And after that their sales while good, they were on a major decline

[sicksickphil]

[quote=nibbler1982 post_id=3284612 time=1622505579 user_id=4043ptcy, ace can't stop his rights to the makeup being sold.

That’s an amazing point which I’ve never even given consideration.

I already know Ace & Peter had next to no leverage at negotiations. That why they ended up with what they did. Water finds its own level.

You’ve opened up my eyes that they had less than eve I thought.

It shouldn't be under consideration because that was never part of the bankruptcy proceedings. Ace only filed for bankruptcy (to get rid of the IRS money). Ace only filed after the reunion deal was set. Ace never should have been allowed to file Chapter 11.


I wonder how many times you can keep saying "next to no leverage" when Ace had the leverage to keep KISS from doing a reunion and putting out all the classic merchandise. If that's "next to no leverage" I sure don't know what is leverage.


And guess what "no leverage", had those "rights" come up in the bankruptcy trial. They most likely would be put up for auction. If you would have thought things through, you would have known this would have been the worst possible case for KISS. People with actual deep pockets would have been going after them. And Gene and Paul didn't have the money to bid on them. Next time, try thinking things through.

"They most likely would be put up for auction. If you would have thought things through, you would have known this would have been the worst possible case for KISS. People with actual deep pockets would have been going after them. "

um no. While someone with deep pockets could have bought it, it wouldn't make much since for them to buy it. They couldn't use the Kiss logo and they couldn't use stuff with the other makeup. So that leaves just Ace merch and they would need to pay Ace to use Ace's name to promote it. So why would someone with deep pockets buy other than Kiss ? it would make more sense to buy something like pepsi stock

"I wonder how many times you can keep saying "next to no leverage"
Because KISS could still make money and Ace couldn't. Nobody was going to give him a recording contract, and he had trouble getting a few hundred people in a bar on the bad boys tour

[sicksickphil]

yeah you had stuff like Hysteria which took three years just to record and two producers.
And you had labelmates like scorpions and Cinderella who's sales were much closer to kiss.

" That belongs on the same planet as KISS not being dropped if they didn't have the reunion."

well what did the reunion do ? you got You wanted the Best and Psycho circus - both went gold.

Bon Jovi (the group KISS tried to emulate)

Cinderella whose "Night Songs" was already Triple Platinum by 1991. That's 1M more than you claim "Destroyer" sold.


They got a Gold Award for those. And in 10 years, they still didn't sell enough at retail to deserve it.

1996 "MTV Unplugged": 300,000
1996 "You Wanted the Best, You Got the Best!!": 329,000
1997 "Greatest Kiss": 394,000
1997 "Carnival of Souls - The Final Sessions": 175,000
1998 "Psycho Circus": 479,000

"Fake Sales" don't generate royalties or income.

1996 "MTV Unplugged": 300,000
Cost label nothing to make

1996 "You Wanted the Best, You Got the Best!!": 329,000
Cost Label almost nothing to make

1997 "Greatest Kiss": 394,000
Cost label little to make

1,023,000 albums sold to stores for about $10 cost almost nothing to make

2001 "Box Set": 141,000
Cost little to make and sold for $50 and a few deluxe costing over $100


1997 "Carnival of Souls - The Final Sessions": 175,000
No videos and little promotion made money

1998 "Psycho Circus": 479,000
Now this was a expensive album to make, but at 479k soundscan the home video did well, the label made money and kiss made a little

[SpinningAcorn]

yeah you had stuff like Hysteria which took three years just to record and two producers.
And you had labelmates like scorpions and Cinderella who's sales were much closer to kiss.

" That belongs on the same planet as KISS not being dropped if they didn't have the reunion."

well what did the reunion do ? you got You wanted the Best and Psycho circus - both went gold.

Bon Jovi (the group KISS tried to emulate)

Cinderella whose "Night Songs" was already Triple Platinum by 1991. That's 1M more than you claim "Destroyer" sold.


They got a Gold Award for those. And in 10 years, they still didn't sell enough at retail to deserve it.

1996 "MTV Unplugged": 300,000
1996 "You Wanted the Best, You Got the Best!!": 329,000
1997 "Greatest Kiss": 394,000
1997 "Carnival of Souls - The Final Sessions": 175,000
1998 "Psycho Circus": 479,000

"Fake Sales" don't generate royalties or income.

1996 "MTV Unplugged": 300,000
Cost label nothing to make

1996 "You Wanted the Best, You Got the Best!!": 329,000
Cost Label almost nothing to make

1997 "Greatest Kiss": 394,000
Cost label little to make

1,023,000 albums sold to stores for about $10 cost almost nothing to make

2001 "Box Set": 141,000
Cost little to make and sold for $50 and a few deluxe costing over $100


1997 "Carnival of Souls - The Final Sessions": 175,000
No videos and little promotion made money

1998 "Psycho Circus": 479,000
Now this was a expensive album to make, but at 479k soundscan the home video did well, the label made money and kiss made a little

Its just amazing you act like you knew the advances KISS was getting on their albums. I also bet your "accounting" doesn't come anywhere near the labels accounting. Kiss couldn't sell jack during that time even with the reunion and you act like are doing so well.

Cinderella's sales blow KISS away and yet they get dropped in 1995 and you don't think would have been. Believe what you will.

[sicksickphil]

yeah you had stuff like Hysteria which took three years just to record and two producers.
And you had labelmates like scorpions and Cinderella who's sales were much closer to kiss.

" That belongs on the same planet as KISS not being dropped if they didn't have the reunion."

well what did the reunion do ? you got You wanted the Best and Psycho circus - both went gold.

Bon Jovi (the group KISS tried to emulate)

Cinderella whose "Night Songs" was already Triple Platinum by 1991. That's 1M more than you claim "Destroyer" sold.


They got a Gold Award for those. And in 10 years, they still didn't sell enough at retail to deserve it.

1996 "MTV Unplugged": 300,000
1996 "You Wanted the Best, You Got the Best!!": 329,000
1997 "Greatest Kiss": 394,000
1997 "Carnival of Souls - The Final Sessions": 175,000
1998 "Psycho Circus": 479,000

"Fake Sales" don't generate royalties or income.

1996 "MTV Unplugged": 300,000
Cost label nothing to make

1996 "You Wanted the Best, You Got the Best!!": 329,000
Cost Label almost nothing to make

1997 "Greatest Kiss": 394,000
Cost label little to make

1,023,000 albums sold to stores for about $10 cost almost nothing to make

2001 "Box Set": 141,000
Cost little to make and sold for $50 and a few deluxe costing over $100


1997 "Carnival of Souls - The Final Sessions": 175,000
No videos and little promotion made money

1998 "Psycho Circus": 479,000
Now this was a expensive album to make, but at 479k soundscan the home video did well, the label made money and kiss made a little

Its just amazing you act like you knew the advances KISS was getting on their albums. I also bet your "accounting" doesn't come anywhere near the labels accounting. Kiss couldn't sell jack during that time even with the reunion and you act like are doing so well.

Cinderella's sales blow KISS away and yet they get dropped in 1995 and you don't think would have been. Believe what you will.

If Kiss sales sucked "even with the reunion" and Cinderlla's sales blew kiss's sales away, why didn't kiss get dropped ?

"Its just amazing you act like you knew the advances KISS was getting on their albums." i know albums made of repackaged material and a live show that the label didn't have pay to record didn't cost much to make. And I know about how much the stores were paying for cds.

[41Mets]

For Peter, it has all ended seemingly well. He is living comfortably and happily, and a lot of that may have to do with having a very supportive wife working for his best interests. Sure, he is doing personal appearances for some extra money, but if that adds to his situation being even better, why not? Going back to the original topic of the thread, Peter is not in the same situation he was at reunion time, and would only seem to agree to participate if he was comfortable with the documentary approach itself. Frehley appears to be a different story, possibly.

[Hi I'm Witz]

Funny how people think A&P were in no position to refuse the stipulations of the reunion contract, yet they had no problem walking away from "ridiculous money" for this documentary.

[nibbler1982]

Funny how people think A&P were in no position to refuse the stipulations of the reunion contract, yet they had no problem walking away from "ridiculous money" for this documentary.

I can’t speak for anyone else, but I believe your comment isn’t even germane to the conversation.

Ace and Peter are in better places now. They were dead broke back then and in the throws of addiction. Twenty five years later they’re supposedly clean and sober. They’ve also had the Reunion money. They both earned roughly $20,000,000. It’s by far the most they’ve ever seen in their lives.

The ‘ridiculous money’ comment is subjective. I’m sure it’s good money for what’s paid for an interview segment like they were asked for. It’s definitely not in the same league as $20M.

And I reiterate...

No, they were in no position to walk away from the paltry conditions they were offered.

History backs my opinion...they didn’t.

[curryleaf]

Despite them potentially being worth more today, it still makes little sense for A&P not to pocket easy money for something that would have taken them less than a day, maybe two at most.

Viewing figures won't be significantly dented by their non-participation and it seems odd that they'd turn down a worthwhile cheque... for what reason? If it was to annoy G&P, I doubt they're overly bothered - they might even have made more money because of it and are sure to only have their version of events heard.

Nibbs has painted what I would consider a fairly accurate picture of A&P as money grabbers, which makes it all the more mystifying as to why they've walked away from this cash.

[70skid]

All this conjecture. Let’s get to one simple fact. KISS Company NEEDED Ace & Peter in 1996.

Tiger Stadium was full because the ORIGINAL KISS was back together and put on a 1977 type show in 1996.

KISS Alive Worldwide was a huge success because of the ORIGINAL KISS was coming to a town near you.

KISS Alive Worldwide put the $$ in KISS Company’s accounts.

Once KISS Company had rebuilt its finances to new heights AND the public was becoming bored with KISS again.....the Company no longer needed Ace & Peter and that was the end of that.

[41Mets]

Despite them potentially being worth more today, it still makes little sense for A&P not to pocket easy money for something that would have taken them less than a day, maybe two at most.

Viewing figures won't be significantly dented by their non-participation and it seems odd that they'd turn down a worthwhile cheque... for what reason? If it was to annoy G&P, I doubt they're overly bothered - they might even have made more money because of it and are sure to only have their version of events heard.

Nibbs has painted what I would consider a fairly accurate picture of A&P as money grabbers, which makes it all the more mystifying as to why they've walked away from this cash.

Peter seems to be in a place where he is living comfortably and wants to avoid anything with Kiss that would upset him. He's not interested in mixing with them any more it seems. It may not be about the money for him. He seems to be at peace away from Kiss and may not want to revisit anything with them.

Frehley may be a different story and cannot guess what that is.

[nibbler1982]

All this conjecture. Let’s get to one simple fact. KISS Company NEEDED Ace & Peter in 1996.

Tiger Stadium was full because the ORIGINAL KISS was back together and put on a 1977 type show in 1996.

KISS Alive Worldwide was a huge success because of the ORIGINAL KISS was coming to a town near you.

KISS Alive Worldwide put the $$ in KISS Company’s accounts.

Once KISS Company had rebuilt its finances to new heights AND the public was becoming bored with KISS again.....the Company no longer needed Ace & Peter and that was the end of that.

Maybe all of us are getting the “Needed” part of the conversation.

Yes, Paul and Gene “NEEDED” Ace & Peter to pull off the EXTREMELY SUCCESSFUL Reunion Era 1996-2001. Without all four of them together it could have NEVER been the resounding success it was. However...

They didn’t need them so much as to offer them anything other than the paltry sums agreed upon. Ace & Peter were nothing but employees. All they were entitled to was a per show payment. Not one dime on any and all other revenue streams including the vaunted KISS merchandise machine.

On the other hand Ace & Peter “NEEDED” Paul and Gene so much they had to accept the anemic sums they were offered. They were willingly exploited and embraced their role as employees of KISS Catalog Ltd.

There comes a point in all negotiations where either terms are acceptable or one side walks away from the table. The ability to walk away from the deal is the definition of true leverage. It has nothing to do with hypothetical permutations about who is worth “more” to the deal. It’s the ability to say “It’s this or nothing.”

History tells us who wielded that leverage.

Ace & Peter couldn’t afford to take nothing.

[lord71]

LOL. Is this thread gonna be over 10 pages? Going back and forth. Good entertainment!

[In the Suds]

LOL. Is this thread gonna be over 10 pages? Going back and forth. Good entertainment!

And all based on a random Facebook person talking about what someone else supposedly said. No way to know if the first person ever really did say it since their post was mysteriously ''removed,'' and even if they did really say it the person in question is known to be a joker with zero credibility....but it will still easily go ten pages and beyond.

[TwistedTaste]

All this conjecture. Let’s get to one simple fact. KISS Company NEEDED Ace & Peter in 1996.

Tiger Stadium was full because the ORIGINAL KISS was back together and put on a 1977 type show in 1996.

KISS Alive Worldwide was a huge success because of the ORIGINAL KISS was coming to a town near you.

KISS Alive Worldwide put the $$ in KISS Company’s accounts.

Once KISS Company had rebuilt its finances to new heights AND the public was becoming bored with KISS again.....the Company no longer needed Ace & Peter and that was the end of that.

Maybe all of us are getting the “Needed” part of the conversation.

Yes, Paul and Gene “NEEDED” Ace & Peter to pull off the EXTREMELY SUCCESSFUL Reunion Era 1996-2001. Without all four of them together it could have NEVER been the resounding success it was. However...

They didn’t need them so much as to offer them anything other than the paltry sums agreed upon. Ace & Peter were nothing but employees. All they were entitled to was a per show payment. Not one dime on any and all other revenue streams including the vaunted KISS merchandise machine.

On the other hand Ace & Peter “NEEDED” Paul and Gene so much they had to accept the anemic sums they were offered. They were willingly exploited and embraced their role as employees of KISS Catalog Ltd.

There comes a point in all negotiations where either terms are acceptable or one side walks away from the table. The ability to walk away from the deal is the definition of true leverage. It has nothing to do with hypothetical permutations about who is worth “more” to the deal. It’s the ability to say “It’s this or nothing.”

History tells us who wielded that leverage.

Ace & Peter couldn’t afford to take nothing.

You’re going to break your back in half if you keep moving those goalposts!

[Evo999]

I disagree. If any due diligence would have been done, they would have known that Gene and Paul weren't that much better off than Ace and Peter. Gene and Paul needed the tour almost as bad as they did.

A decent manager/lawyer certainly would have gone for an extensive performance based contract. If KISS were hitting certain milestones attendance/gross, then their salaries would grow. Same with merchandise sales.

What great leverage did Gene and Paul hold? Playing more hotel ballrooms? That's where they were before the reunion. They all needed each other.

If they had a great attorney negotiating, it should have been close to a 60/40 split (G&P 60/ A&P 40) on all income streams during the reunion tour.

Gene had a home in Beverly Hills. Peter was renting an apartment with no money in the bank and a gun in his hand.

I think Gene had slightly more leverage.

Peter had no income and Ace was working for $3,000 guarantees.

Paul and Gene were drawing $100,000 gates in ballrooms.

Maybe some people don’t understand the definition of leverage?

Paul and Gene sure as shit didn't want to return to ballrooms. That whole thing wouldn't have been able to continue successfully.

They were cancelling some dates because of little interest, so that $100,000 wasn't income they could CONTINUE count on - so no, they had a false level of leverage.

Hindsight is 20/20 and that's how negotiations work, you keep your cards close to the vest. That's why Paul and Gene had all the leverage. This shouldn't be that hard to understand.

[Grand Classic]

Gene had a home in Beverly Hills. Peter was renting an apartment with no money in the bank and a gun in his hand.

I think Gene had slightly more leverage.

Peter had no income and Ace was working for $3,000 guarantees.

Paul and Gene were drawing $100,000 gates in ballrooms.

Maybe some people don’t understand the definition of leverage?

Paul and Gene sure as shit didn't want to return to ballrooms. That whole thing wouldn't have been able to continue successfully.

They were cancelling some dates because of little interest, so that $100,000 wasn't income they could CONTINUE count on - so no, they had a false level of leverage.

Hindsight is 20/20 and that's how negotiations work, you keep your cards close to the vest. That's why Paul and Gene had all the leverage. This shouldn't be that hard to understand.

Better representation would have been easily able to expose those cards. This shouldn't be that hard to understand.

[BagBoy]

Bummer Ace & Peter turned it down. It is a bummer they couldn’t come to a mutual agreement. They are all entitled to make that sort of decision.

At the end of the day, we have the numerous interviews over the years, the videos, the audio, etc. I think it is safe to say, the die-hards that we are (I dare to say anyone registered on a KISS message board is more than a casual fan), we are able to go through the various accounts and piece together what happened, what was more likely to be the truth, and what is perhaps really embellished.

I hope that Ace & Peter will see this, and perhaps an offer can be there to do some interviews to be edited in for Ultimate Cut version, but that probably won’t happen.

I think I mentioned earlier in this thread, Chicago released a documentary put together by one of the new member’s nephew (Lou Pardini been in the band since 2008). Their original drummer did extensive interviews and wasn’t too thrilled with how he was portrayed in the documentary. I know the director also reached out to other former members, a handful declined. One basically said, “I was raised that if you don’t have anything nice to say, it is better to not say anything”. That was Bill Champlin who Pardini replaced. He was in the group 27 years if I recall. Hard to imagine he didn’t have anything nice to say after that long of a stint, but so be it.

Actions speak louder than words, and perhaps for them to turn it down, it leaves a bigger statement on how they are portrayed by those who watch it.

It is a shame, I agree. I think the majority of us die hards would love that ultimate all former members and current members documentary and the people there. It isn’t to be. Emotions and memories as well are interesting things. What may be small to one, is a big deal to another. I’ve learned especially being married that we should try to validate the other person’s feelings. Doesn’t mean that is exactly what happened, or that they were right and the other wrong. But, even as I look at the mess with this documentary, I just try to validate their feelings, and it is a lot easier to understand and move on.

That was long, sorry! Anyways, lets enjoy the sweet unearthed footage, lets enjoy Kisstory, and who knows, perhaps one day the ultimate documentary will come out.

[69th_B1izard]

In the meantime, you can still watch this...

[cowboytoast]

Seriously. So sick of this guy's face and how he's the go-to talking head for every 70s band in existence. It's not really his fault. If I was asked, I'd talk about all these bands, too. But ... overkill breeds contempt. And when it comes to me and Dave Grohl, contempt is now a teenager working on its driving permit.

It wouldn't be so bad if his music didn't suck balls but The Foo Fighters are a shit band. I don't understand how it has the following it does.

Grohl is nothing more than a token. Anytime the media needs a "rock" representative, he's the one they always dig out. Why I don't know as there are MANY others that could be asked.

Agree with all of this, and Diss. ^^^^

I'm honestly surprised that he isn't at the G7 Summit this week - or that he didn't take my blood pressure at the doctor earlier today- or that he wasn't a pallbearer at my cousin's funeral last week -

Everywhere I look there he is - and I'm sick of hearing that "he's the nice guy of rock" stuff - more like the luckiest - Hell if Tommy got sick he would probably weasel his way into putting on Ace's outfit and do the show - enough is enough with this guy

[battra]

Again, I don’t believe people understand leverage. It has nothing to do with “inherent value”.

Yes, the “Reunion” as we know it could NEVER have gone off without Ace & Peter. However...

Ace and Peter were admittedly broke in 1995. The were literally playing sparsely filled 400 seat joints for a few thousand dollars.

What were their options? Without the Reunion what were they gonna do? What’s the next level down from half filled clubs?

Nothing. They were at rock bottom.

Wherever you believe KISS was at that point do you know how far away Paul and Gene were from that level sitting in their Beverly Hills mansions?

Ace and Pete couldn’t walk away from whatever they were offered out of pure necessity.

Or in other words...lack of leverage.

What Nibbs says here...

100% accurate fact.

Ace and Pete had no better offers....and bills to pay.

And now for me...

Couple that with the fact Ace was fighting Peter instead of joining with him...that's why the two got paid peanuts compared to a paycheck that resembled their value to the enterprise.

[battra]

Again, I don’t believe people understand leverage. It has nothing to do with “inherent value”.

Yes, the “Reunion” as we know it could NEVER have gone off without Ace & Peter. However...

Ace and Peter were admittedly broke in 1995. The were literally playing sparsely filled 400 seat joints for a few thousand dollars.

What were their options? Without the Reunion what were they gonna do? What’s the next level down from half filled clubs?

Nothing. They were at rock bottom.

Wherever you believe KISS was at that point do you know how far away Paul and Gene were from that level sitting in their Beverly Hills mansions?

Ace and Pete couldn’t walk away from whatever they were offered out of pure necessity.

Or in other words...lack of leverage.

And what would've happened to Gene and Paul if Ace and Peter refused? How long would they have been able to continue to live the lifestyle they were accustomed to?

5 years maybe?

They'd be another in a long line of rockers that squandered their ducats.

However, it's not really germane to the conversation at hand.

[battra]

And didn’t Pete even allude to the fact that things were so bad he might even blow his brains out?

Nah, he didn't allude.

He straight up said it.

[spiritof76]

“They weren’t offering enough money” has turnt into “money isn’t everything”

Could the Ace and Peter bootlickers be more comedic?

Nope.

Those goalposts keep on moving.

Ace says NOTHING about anything other than money, and his die hard supporters say he turned it down because of something OTHER than money. He didn't say that, didn't hint at it, but his die hards have jumped to that conclusion to protect their guy.

Who gives a shit? He turned it down, so for some reason, money or otherwise, it did not appeal to him.

Guess what? Everyone has that right.

[battra]

Gene and Paul may have lived in Beverly Hills in the 80’s/early 90’s but they weren’t rolling in the money. Didn’t Lendt’s book say Paul was leasing a Porsche at that point because he couldn’t afford to buy one?

The guy obviously doesn't care about what Gene and Paul's real situation was like. He keeps wanting to talk about Ace and Peter instead of Gene and Paul. Gene and Paul wanted a reunion in 1989. They were desperate for money then. Pretending you are some "successful" rock star requires alot of money. I wouldn't be surprised if they had refinanced their homes just to keep the "lifestyle" going. I doubt they were millionaires at that point on paper.

Ace held the leverage. Sadly, this guy just can't admit he's been terribly wrong.

You’re right. Ace had leverage and wasn’t bright enough to use it.

I’m not sure that’s better.