Feeling ripped off

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Re: Feeling ripped off

Post by stickyfinger »

thundergod76 wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:58 pm Maybe this is a dumb question but...If a producer wants a certain sound or a band member to play their instrument a certain way and that member(s) aren't skilled enough to accomplish this. Why doesn't the producer just let the band record the songs to the best of their abilities? Why the need for ghost or session players to come in and try to fake a bands sound? Its been common practice forever but its just a dishonest way to sell a band. Let the band play the best they are capable of playing. If they suck then they suck. And the record company can cut them loose. Let the band succeed or fail on their own merits.
Well, basically that isn’t the way things are done since usually (unless you are an amateur artist doing your music just for fun) it is important that the recording sounds as good and potential as possible.

If you have a label and other parties investing money and resources on your release, it obviously makes sense that they expect the final product to be up to standards – whatever those in each projects might be.

Also usually, if you are a professionally thinking artist you also want the result to sound as good as possible. So then it doesn’t matter who does what.
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Re: Feeling ripped off

Post by banks »

How many Kiss albums are there, where all members DID play on every song?
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Re: Feeling ripped off

Post by Phyllis Simmons »

50poundnote wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:03 pm
Mr Slow wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:16 pmAnd apparently The Beatles had Phil Collins on drums for a few songs.
...ummm, what?

Phil Collins was only 19 when the Beatles broke up. As a child actor he was filmed for a scene in A Hard Day's Night, which ended up on the cutting room floor.

He did get pranked by George Harrison during the recording of All Things Must Pass, but he doesn't appear on the album.
Wow that’s a doozy Brother Slow; not sure where you possibly heard that? He’s 18-19 and a complete unknown then; and didnt join Genesis until 1971 for Nursery Cryme..
The Beatles used session guy Andy White on a very early cut or two after Ringo joined. Then George Martin worked out Ringo was a capable enough drummer to be used for all their studio work. With the exception of 1 or 2 White Album cuts which is actually Paul on drums! Might have been a time constraint thing; and they just used Paul’s takes.

Re the OP. Ghost players here and there doesn’t bother me. Like most have said Psycho Circus is a stand out problem album. I would have liked the originals to have been on at least most of it. But hey it is what it is..
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Re: Feeling ripped off

Post by Glasgow Kiss »

Phyllis Simmons wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 1:29 am
50poundnote wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:03 pm
Mr Slow wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:16 pmAnd apparently The Beatles had Phil Collins on drums for a few songs.
...ummm, what?

Phil Collins was only 19 when the Beatles broke up. As a child actor he was filmed for a scene in A Hard Day's Night, which ended up on the cutting room floor.

He did get pranked by George Harrison during the recording of All Things Must Pass, but he doesn't appear on the album.
Wow that’s a doozy Brother Slow; not sure where you possibly heard that? He’s 18-19 and a complete unknown then; and didnt join Genesis until 1971 for Nursery Cryme..
The Beatles used session guy Andy White on a very early cut or two after Ringo joined. Then George Martin worked out Ringo was a capable enough drummer to be used for all their studio work. With the exception of 1 or 2 White Album cuts which is actually Paul on drums! Might have been a time constraint thing; and they just used Paul’s takes.

Re the OP. Ghost players here and there doesn’t bother me. Like most have said Psycho Circus is a stand out problem album. I would have liked the originals to have been on at least most of it. But hey it is what it is..
McCartney was a musical polymath who instinctively could play almost any instrument, and actually was a very good drummer.

Which led to Lennon's famous quote when an interviewer asked him if Ringo was the best drummer in the world:

"Best drummer in the world? He's not even the best drummer in the Beatles..."
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Re: Feeling ripped off

Post by DubaiRockCity »

Maybe you’re confabulating that Phil Collins was in the theatre in the audience shots of A Hard Days Night in 64 and also played bongos as a basically unknown musician on All Things Must Pass in 1971. Didn’t end up on the album. He never drummed on a Beatles album.

He’s IN the movie though, it didn’t get cut out.

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Re: Feeling ripped off

Post by redinthesky »

Glasgow Kiss wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 2:07 am
Phyllis Simmons wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 1:29 am
50poundnote wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:03 pm
Mr Slow wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:16 pmAnd apparently The Beatles had Phil Collins on drums for a few songs.
...ummm, what?

Phil Collins was only 19 when the Beatles broke up. As a child actor he was filmed for a scene in A Hard Day's Night, which ended up on the cutting room floor.

He did get pranked by George Harrison during the recording of All Things Must Pass, but he doesn't appear on the album.
Wow that’s a doozy Brother Slow; not sure where you possibly heard that? He’s 18-19 and a complete unknown then; and didnt join Genesis until 1971 for Nursery Cryme..
The Beatles used session guy Andy White on a very early cut or two after Ringo joined. Then George Martin worked out Ringo was a capable enough drummer to be used for all their studio work. With the exception of 1 or 2 White Album cuts which is actually Paul on drums! Might have been a time constraint thing; and they just used Paul’s takes.

Re the OP. Ghost players here and there doesn’t bother me. Like most have said Psycho Circus is a stand out problem album. I would have liked the originals to have been on at least most of it. But hey it is what it is..
McCartney was a musical polymath who instinctively could play almost any instrument, and actually was a very good drummer.

Which led to Lennon's famous quote when an interviewer asked him if Ringo was the best drummer in the world:

"Best drummer in the world? He's not even the best drummer in the Beatles..."
John Lennon never said that quote, which has been making the rounds for decades, but it isn't true. A similar quote was done on a British comedy radio program in the early 80s, and it took off from there. But John never said it, and actually he has always been very complimentary towards Ringo, even saying in the 70s that Ringo's solo career was doing better than his own.
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Re: Feeling ripped off

Post by andreww1962 »

Bruce wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:04 pm I prefer a superior album experience to purity. If a band musician is on the shitter and a studio musician is feeling his oats and wants to play in his stead ... as long as it sounds great, I honestly couldn't care less that the band member wasnt on it. If anything, it makes me curious about the stand-in and what other music they have on offer. Might be interested ...
Whats the difference between KISS and Millie Vanillie? None. Kiss are frauds in that respect.
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Re: Feeling ripped off

Post by andreww1962 »

banks wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 12:36 am How many Kiss albums are there, where all members DID play on every song?
Six.
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Re: Feeling ripped off

Post by Glasgow Kiss »

redinthesky wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 4:47 am
Glasgow Kiss wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 2:07 am
Phyllis Simmons wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 1:29 am
50poundnote wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:03 pm
Mr Slow wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:16 pmAnd apparently The Beatles had Phil Collins on drums for a few songs.
...ummm, what?

Phil Collins was only 19 when the Beatles broke up. As a child actor he was filmed for a scene in A Hard Day's Night, which ended up on the cutting room floor.

He did get pranked by George Harrison during the recording of All Things Must Pass, but he doesn't appear on the album.
Wow that’s a doozy Brother Slow; not sure where you possibly heard that? He’s 18-19 and a complete unknown then; and didnt join Genesis until 1971 for Nursery Cryme..
The Beatles used session guy Andy White on a very early cut or two after Ringo joined. Then George Martin worked out Ringo was a capable enough drummer to be used for all their studio work. With the exception of 1 or 2 White Album cuts which is actually Paul on drums! Might have been a time constraint thing; and they just used Paul’s takes.

Re the OP. Ghost players here and there doesn’t bother me. Like most have said Psycho Circus is a stand out problem album. I would have liked the originals to have been on at least most of it. But hey it is what it is..
McCartney was a musical polymath who instinctively could play almost any instrument, and actually was a very good drummer.

Which led to Lennon's famous quote when an interviewer asked him if Ringo was the best drummer in the world:

"Best drummer in the world? He's not even the best drummer in the Beatles..."
John Lennon never said that quote, which has been making the rounds for decades, but it isn't true. A similar quote was done on a British comedy radio program in the early 80s, and it took off from there. But John never said it, and actually he has always been very complimentary towards Ringo, even saying in the 70s that Ringo's solo career was doing better than his own.
Actually, having read the Snopes article, I never knew that to be the case...I stand corrected! I think it's gained so much currency over the years because it sounds so much like something Lennon would have said - I can almost hear that lugubrious south Liverpool accent when I read it.
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Re: Feeling ripped off

Post by Tito »

andreww1962 wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:11 am
banks wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 12:36 am How many Kiss albums are there, where all members DID play on every song?
Six.
All members played on every song? I seriously doubt that count.
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Re: Feeling ripped off

Post by redinthesky »

Glasgow Kiss wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:18 am
redinthesky wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 4:47 am
Glasgow Kiss wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 2:07 am
Phyllis Simmons wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 1:29 am
50poundnote wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:03 pm
Mr Slow wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:16 pmAnd apparently The Beatles had Phil Collins on drums for a few songs.
...ummm, what?

Phil Collins was only 19 when the Beatles broke up. As a child actor he was filmed for a scene in A Hard Day's Night, which ended up on the cutting room floor.

He did get pranked by George Harrison during the recording of All Things Must Pass, but he doesn't appear on the album.
Wow that’s a doozy Brother Slow; not sure where you possibly heard that? He’s 18-19 and a complete unknown then; and didnt join Genesis until 1971 for Nursery Cryme..
The Beatles used session guy Andy White on a very early cut or two after Ringo joined. Then George Martin worked out Ringo was a capable enough drummer to be used for all their studio work. With the exception of 1 or 2 White Album cuts which is actually Paul on drums! Might have been a time constraint thing; and they just used Paul’s takes.

Re the OP. Ghost players here and there doesn’t bother me. Like most have said Psycho Circus is a stand out problem album. I would have liked the originals to have been on at least most of it. But hey it is what it is..
McCartney was a musical polymath who instinctively could play almost any instrument, and actually was a very good drummer.

Which led to Lennon's famous quote when an interviewer asked him if Ringo was the best drummer in the world:

"Best drummer in the world? He's not even the best drummer in the Beatles..."
John Lennon never said that quote, which has been making the rounds for decades, but it isn't true. A similar quote was done on a British comedy radio program in the early 80s, and it took off from there. But John never said it, and actually he has always been very complimentary towards Ringo, even saying in the 70s that Ringo's solo career was doing better than his own.
Actually, having read the Snopes article, I never knew that to be the case...I stand corrected! I think it's gained so much currency over the years because it sounds so much like something Lennon would have said - I can almost hear that lugubrious south Liverpool accent when I read it.
Yeah John can get 'cheeky' as the nice blokes in the UK may say :). Of course truth is Paul was definitely a good drummer. He seemed to be a good everything, like you were saying. I'm a big Beatles fan, and it still amazes me that the stars aligned up correctly for those four guys to meet and play.
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Re: Feeling ripped off

Post by andreww1962 »

Tito wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:19 am
andreww1962 wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:11 am
banks wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 12:36 am How many Kiss albums are there, where all members DID play on every song?
Six.
All members played on every song? I seriously doubt that count.
KISS
Dressed to Kill
Hotter than Hell
Destroyer
R&RO
Love Gun
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Re: Feeling ripped off

Post by Tito »

andreww1962 wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:44 am
Tito wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:19 am
andreww1962 wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:11 am
banks wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 12:36 am How many Kiss albums are there, where all members DID play on every song?
Six.
All members played on every song? I seriously doubt that count.
KISS
Dressed to Kill
Hotter than Hell
Destroyer
R&RO
Love Gun
So what did Ace, Paul and Gene do on "Beth" exactly? Also lots of songs on those albums where Gene played rhythm guitar.
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Re: Feeling ripped off

Post by andreww1962 »

Tito wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:47 am
andreww1962 wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:44 am
Tito wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:19 am
andreww1962 wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:11 am
banks wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 12:36 am How many Kiss albums are there, where all members DID play on every song?
Six.
All members played on every song? I seriously doubt that count.
KISS
Dressed to Kill
Hotter than Hell
Destroyer
R&RO
Love Gun
So what did Ace, Paul and Gene do on "Beth" exactly? Also lots of songs on those albums where Gene played rhythm guitar.
There are no players on those albums masquerading as band members, with the exception of Aces solo on Sweet Pain, but I do believe his rhythm guitar playing is on that track? But yes, their first six albums were for the most part authentic. Strangely enough, probably 90% of their current set list comes from those six albums. Hmmmm
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Re: Feeling ripped off

Post by Tito »

andreww1962 wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:58 am
Tito wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:47 am
andreww1962 wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:44 am
Tito wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:19 am
andreww1962 wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:11 am
banks wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 12:36 am How many Kiss albums are there, where all members DID play on every song?
Six.
All members played on every song? I seriously doubt that count.
KISS
Dressed to Kill
Hotter than Hell
Destroyer
R&RO
Love Gun
So what did Ace, Paul and Gene do on "Beth" exactly? Also lots of songs on those albums where Gene played rhythm guitar.
There are no players on those albums masquerading as band members, with the exception of Aces solo on Sweet Pain, but I do believe his rhythm guitar playing is on that track? But yes, their first six albums were for the most part authentic. Strangely enough, probably 90% of their current set list comes from those six albums. Hmmmm
Ghost players or not was not the question; having all band members playing on every song was. I think the correct answer might well be the first two albums.
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Re: Feeling ripped off

Post by Marc Aze »

Gtokyle wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:54 pm Call me crazy if you must but I feel really ripped off knowing that I bought Kiss albums that all 4 of them didn't play every song on. To me it’s like buying an autographed pic on EBay and finding out it is a fake signature. Am I missing something here? Anyone else feel cheated? Was it Psycho Circus that Ace only played one song on and Peter didn’t play anything at all? But yet they sell the album with all 4 originals pics on them? I go back to the mid 70s as a Kiss fan and rushed out to buy Psycho Circus as soon as it was available. Sorry if this subject has been beat to death but come on!!!! Ridiculous!
C'mon, grow up! :roll: :roll: :roll:
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Re: Feeling ripped off

Post by Allamericanman »

If Creatures needed the other players to be THAT good, then so be it.

Psycho Circus on the other hand.....
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Re: Feeling ripped off

Post by Kissologist »

"Ghost musicianship" is as old as humanity.
It has been proved that Mozart was behind the music attributed to other composers :idea:
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Re: Feeling ripped off

Post by TheSpoiler »

Tito wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 6:08 am
andreww1962 wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:58 am
Tito wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:47 am
andreww1962 wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:44 am
Tito wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:19 am
andreww1962 wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:11 am
banks wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 12:36 am How many Kiss albums are there, where all members DID play on every song?
Six.
All members played on every song? I seriously doubt that count.
KISS
Dressed to Kill
Hotter than Hell
Destroyer
R&RO
Love Gun
So what did Ace, Paul and Gene do on "Beth" exactly? Also lots of songs on those albums where Gene played rhythm guitar.
There are no players on those albums masquerading as band members, with the exception of Aces solo on Sweet Pain, but I do believe his rhythm guitar playing is on that track? But yes, their first six albums were for the most part authentic. Strangely enough, probably 90% of their current set list comes from those six albums. Hmmmm
Ghost players or not was not the question; having all band members playing on every song was. I think the correct answer might well be the first two albums.
Plus Lick It Up - there's the Derringer solo on Exciter but VV's guitar is right there on the rest of the track.
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Re: Feeling ripped off

Post by Tito »

TheSpoiler wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 9:40 am
Tito wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 6:08 am
andreww1962 wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:58 am
Tito wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:47 am
andreww1962 wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:44 am
Tito wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:19 am
andreww1962 wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:11 am
banks wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 12:36 am How many Kiss albums are there, where all members DID play on every song?
Six.
All members played on every song? I seriously doubt that count.
KISS
Dressed to Kill
Hotter than Hell
Destroyer
R&RO
Love Gun
So what did Ace, Paul and Gene do on "Beth" exactly? Also lots of songs on those albums where Gene played rhythm guitar.
There are no players on those albums masquerading as band members, with the exception of Aces solo on Sweet Pain, but I do believe his rhythm guitar playing is on that track? But yes, their first six albums were for the most part authentic. Strangely enough, probably 90% of their current set list comes from those six albums. Hmmmm
Ghost players or not was not the question; having all band members playing on every song was. I think the correct answer might well be the first two albums.
Plus Lick It Up - there's the Derringer solo on Exciter but VV's guitar is right there on the rest of the track.
I would be surprised if P&G played on all of each other's songs by that time. Gene on "A Million To One"? Paul on "Dance All Over Your Face"? I doubt it.
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Re: Feeling ripped off

Post by banks »

Tito wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:47 am
andreww1962 wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:44 am
Tito wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:19 am
andreww1962 wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:11 am
banks wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 12:36 am How many Kiss albums are there, where all members DID play on every song?
Six.
All members played on every song? I seriously doubt that count.
KISS
Dressed to Kill
Hotter than Hell
Destroyer
R&RO
Love Gun
So what did Ace, Paul and Gene do on "Beth" exactly? Also lots of songs on those albums where Gene played rhythm guitar.
Gene once said that when he's playing rhythm guitar (on a Kiss song), it doesn't mean that somebody else isn't playing rhythm as well. But I do remember him saying that he's the only rhythm player on Christine 16.
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Re: Feeling ripped off

Post by AstroWarped »

TheSpoiler wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 9:40 am Plus Lick It Up - there's the Derringer solo on Exciter but VV's guitar is right there on the rest of the track.
There was a limited edition (200 made) vinyl, the sleeve was a blue color with pictures, called "Kiss Ticklers" of Vinnie Era Tunes that had the original extended "Exciter" with the Vinnie Solo. I saw it in Eide's records and comics but did not get it at the time.
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Re: Feeling ripped off

Post by TheSpoiler »

Tito wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 10:40 am
TheSpoiler wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 9:40 am
Tito wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 6:08 am
andreww1962 wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:58 am
Tito wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:47 am
andreww1962 wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:44 am
Tito wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:19 am
andreww1962 wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:11 am
banks wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 12:36 am How many Kiss albums are there, where all members DID play on every song?
Six.
All members played on every song? I seriously doubt that count.
KISS
Dressed to Kill
Hotter than Hell
Destroyer
R&RO
Love Gun
So what did Ace, Paul and Gene do on "Beth" exactly? Also lots of songs on those albums where Gene played rhythm guitar.
There are no players on those albums masquerading as band members, with the exception of Aces solo on Sweet Pain, but I do believe his rhythm guitar playing is on that track? But yes, their first six albums were for the most part authentic. Strangely enough, probably 90% of their current set list comes from those six albums. Hmmmm
Ghost players or not was not the question; having all band members playing on every song was. I think the correct answer might well be the first two albums.
Plus Lick It Up - there's the Derringer solo on Exciter but VV's guitar is right there on the rest of the track.
I would be surprised if P&G played on all of each other's songs by that time. Gene on "A Million To One"? Paul on "Dance All Over Your Face"? I doubt it.
Good points.
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Re: Feeling ripped off

Post by Tito »

AstroWarped wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 12:59 pm
TheSpoiler wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 9:40 am Plus Lick It Up - there's the Derringer solo on Exciter but VV's guitar is right there on the rest of the track.
There was a limited edition (200 made) vinyl, the sleeve was a blue color with pictures, called "Kiss Ticklers" of Vinnie Era Tunes that had the original extended "Exciter" with the Vinnie Solo. I saw it in Eide's records and comics but did not get it at the time.
That's a live concert bootleg.

https://www.discogs.com/Kiss-The-Tickle ... se/8624563
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Re: Feeling ripped off

Post by AstroWarped »

Tito wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 10:06 pm
AstroWarped wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 12:59 pm
TheSpoiler wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 9:40 am Plus Lick It Up - there's the Derringer solo on Exciter but VV's guitar is right there on the rest of the track.
There was a limited edition (200 made) vinyl, the sleeve was a blue color with pictures, called "Kiss Ticklers" of Vinnie Era Tunes that had the original extended "Exciter" with the Vinnie Solo. I saw it in Eide's records and comics but did not get it at the time.
That's a live concert bootleg.

https://www.discogs.com/Kiss-The-Tickle ... se/8624563
I don't recall it being Live because of the sticker mentioning an extended "Exciter". That's the back cover. If it is live, cool, it's the only thing live from the Vinnie Vincent & Eric Carr era on a disc that I have seen.
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Re: Feeling ripped off

Post by 69th_B1izard »

This stuff has been going on since the mid seventies. Time for a KISSTORY lesson!
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Re: Feeling ripped off

Post by Pete2174 »

Wow. Lockdown is really getting to people isn't it?
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