Feeling ripped off

Gtokyle · Post by **Gtokyle** » Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:54 pm

Call me crazy if you must but I feel really ripped off knowing that I bought Kiss albums that all 4 of them didn't play every song on. To me it’s like buying an autographed pic on EBay and finding out it is a fake signature. Am I missing something here? Anyone else feel cheated? Was it Psycho Circus that Ace only played one song on and Peter didn’t play anything at all? But yet they sell the album with all 4 originals pics on them? I go back to the mid 70s as a Kiss fan and rushed out to buy Psycho Circus as soon as it was available. Sorry if this subject has been beat to death but come on!!!! Ridiculous!

Post by **DubaiRockCity** » Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:57 pm

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:04 pm

I prefer a superior album experience to purity. If a band musician is on the shitter and a studio musician is feeling his oats and wants to play in his stead ... as long as it sounds great, I honestly couldn't care less that the band member wasnt on it. If anything, it makes me curious about the stand-in and what other music they have on offer. Might be interested ...

JohnBergless · Post by **JohnBergless** » Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:11 pm

That’s kind of like when you find a great salsa at the grocery store. You read the label thinking, oh this stuff is awesome; it must be hand made fresh by that little man or woman depicted right on the front of the bottle.... then you find out it doesn’t say “Produced by ______”; or “Made in __________”; all it says is, “DISTRIBUTED BY _______________”. That little man depicted on the label didn’t do squat did he? But you can still enjoy the salsa, regardless

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:14 pm

"Salsa" ... sir?

BC Witch · Post by **BC Witch** » Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:17 pm

A valid point of view.

Grand Classic · Post by **Grand Classic** » Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:20 pm

I get complaining about Psycho Circus, because people were expending a reunion album and were essentially lied to - but I don't care at all about the other instances.

In many cases, it still ended up being great like Bob Kulick with Larger Than Life and sorry, but Dick Wagner's solo is better than Ace's on Sweet Pain.

At the end of the day, if the song is fantastic - I don't really care who played on it.

His Majesty · Post by **His Majesty** » Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:20 pm

Then we should have felt ripped off for decades, because this shit has been going on since at least Destroyer.

Gtokyle · Post by **Gtokyle** » Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:24 pm

With all due respect to anyone that disagrees with me, if Peter didn’t play on Psycho Circus at all then why put his pic on the album cover? Could it be to dupe us and sell more albums? Well, we know the answer to this question obviously. Thanks for letting me vent. Sure wish I could get a refund! I feel Paul and Gene owe us an apology.

His Majesty · Post by **His Majesty** » Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:25 pm

Gtokyle wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:24 pmif Peter didn’t play on Psycho Circus at all then why put his pic on the album cover?

Probably because Kevin Valentine looked funny in whiskers?

Post by **Admin** » Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:36 pm

22 years. Probably time to get over it.

mkayers · Post by **mkayers** » Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:37 pm

Look up "The Wrecking Crew" lol

gothunder · Post by **gothunder** » Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:38 pm

Better late then never.

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:39 pm

To be fair -- and I do believe this -- Ace & Pete were more interested in their lawyers strong arming KIϟϟ for a bigger payday, than in recording Psycho Circus. And we can argue how KIϟϟ might've rescheduled, or otherwise tried to accomidate, but ... no, I can't even fathom that happening.

Ace & Pete are fortunate to even be on the record. Pete, especially. But I love Psycho Circus, its my favorite album with the original lineup. As for the promos and all of those assurances they provided, hey ... thats advertising. You know? Thats just advertising for you ...

Nellcote71 · Post by **Nellcote71** » Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:01 pm

Bruce wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:39 pm To be fair -- and I do believe this -- Ace & Pete were more interested in their lawyers strong arming KIϟϟ for a bigger payday, than in recording Psycho Circus. And we can argue how KIϟϟ might've rescheduled, or otherwise tried to accomidate, but ... no, I can't even fathom that happening.

Ace & Pete are fortunate to even be on the record. Pete, especially. But I love Psycho Circus, its my favorite album with the original lineup. As for the promos and all of those assurances they provided, hey ... thats advertising. You know? Thats just advertising for you ...

What a bunch of horseshit

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:08 pm

My post (unlikely) or the circumstances surrounding the recording of Psycho Curcus (BINGO!)?

gothunder · Post by **gothunder** » Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:08 pm

Bruce wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:39 pm To be fair -- and I do believe this -- Ace & Pete were more interested in their lawyers strong arming KIϟϟ for a bigger payday, than in recording Psycho Circus. And we can argue how KIϟϟ might've rescheduled, or otherwise tried to accomidate, but ... no, I can't even fathom that happening.

Ace & Pete are fortunate to even be on the record. Pete, especially. But I love Psycho Circus, its my favorite album with the original lineup. As for the promos and all of those assurances they provided, hey ... thats advertising. You know? Thats just advertising for you ...

I really enjoy the album as well.

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:09 pm

I knew I couldn't be alone in that -- thank you!

battra · Post by **battra** » Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:13 pm

Eh.

If you think of Kiss like the Monkees....

It's a lot easier.

And then is heard no more.

It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,

Signifying nothing.

When you can accept this...a band without any original direction and a load of good tunes is easier to love.

TheSpoiler · Post by **TheSpoiler** » Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:13 pm

Nellcote71 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:01 pm
Bruce wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:39 pm To be fair -- and I do believe this -- Ace & Pete were more interested in their lawyers strong arming KIϟϟ for a bigger payday, than in recording Psycho Circus. And we can argue how KIϟϟ might've rescheduled, or otherwise tried to accomidate, but ... no, I can't even fathom that happening.

Ace & Pete are fortunate to even be on the record. Pete, especially. But I love Psycho Circus, its my favorite album with the original lineup. As for the promos and all of those assurances they provided, hey ... thats advertising. You know? Thats just advertising for you ...
What a bunch of horseshit

You have evidence to the contrary?

Please go ahead and post it.

Mr Slow · Post by **Mr Slow** » Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:16 pm

I wish that every single KISS album only featured the 4 guys in the band at that time. Aside from the ones mentioned, I don’t like that Eric Carr got subbed out on I, Vinnie on Exciter, Eric Singer on Take It Off etc. For better or worse, if that’s the band you have then you make do with what you have. But I understand there are time restraints and other factors involved. For instance, I know with Take It Off, Singer was out on tour with Alice Cooper am unable to return for a re-do. But in an ideal world it would just be the 4 guys.

KISS definitely aren’t the only ones though. If you follow Bon Jovi at all, their studio bass player was different to the live player. As far as I’m aware Alex John Such never played a not on a BJ record. And apparently The Beatles had Phil Collins on drums for a few songs. So it happens...

Goodwilltowardsall · Post by **Goodwilltowardsall** » Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:42 pm

Gtokyle wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:54 pm Call me crazy if you must but I feel really ripped off knowing that I bought Kiss albums that all 4 of them didn't play every song on. To me it’s like buying an autographed pic on EBay and finding out it is a fake signature. Am I missing something here? Anyone else feel cheated? Was it Psycho Circus that Ace only played one song on and Peter didn’t play anything at all? But yet they sell the album with all 4 originals pics on them? I go back to the mid 70s as a Kiss fan and rushed out to buy Psycho Circus as soon as it was available. Sorry if this subject has been beat to death but come on!!!! Ridiculous!

You need to find another band to follow bro.

OrigialEraFan · Post by **OrigialEraFan** » Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:00 pm

When I found out The Monkees didn't play much on their first 2 records I was kinda bummed, but I was 8. By the time KISS made Psycho Circus I knew I couldn't believe much of what they said.

Marty Scurll · Post by **Marty Scurll** » Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:02 pm

battra wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:13 pm Eh.

If you think of Kiss like the Monkees....

It's a lot easier.

And then is heard no more.

It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,

Signifying nothing.

When you can accept this...a band without any original direction and a load of good tunes is easier to love.

Spot on! And I love The Monkees! Other Kiss fans that I have said this to over the years got greatly offended by that notion. "I wouldn't go that far" or "What are you on,dude?!" Then I would ask them if they knew anything at all about the history of The Monkees? " No,why would I want to learn about them?! " SMDH!! "Because if you did you would find that their basically one and the same as far as how it all happens. There are many parallels between Kiss and The Monkees. But now The Monkees have usurped Kiss in legitimacy as they have never faked it live.

But to the OP. I knew going in that it wasn't a totally legit album but I purchased it anyway. And it did smack of fraud but more surprising to me was how bad it was. And how bad they have left their recording legacy. And The Monkees have them beat in that regard also as their last album was great and more legit than Psycho Circus. You may also find that most bands used or use studio hands. That's why for me a band have to prove their worth on the stage and Kiss have most certainly done that for me. Not now though. They suck now.

50poundnote · Post by **50poundnote** » Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:03 pm

Mr Slow wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:16 pmAnd apparently The Beatles had Phil Collins on drums for a few songs.

...ummm, what?

Phil Collins was only 19 when the Beatles broke up. As a child actor he was filmed for a scene in A Hard Day's Night, which ended up on the cutting room floor.

He did get pranked by George Harrison during the recording of All Things Must Pass, but he doesn't appear on the album.

Grand Classic · Post by **Grand Classic** » Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:05 pm

Bruce wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:39 pm To be fair -- and I do believe this -- Ace & Pete were more interested in their lawyers strong arming KIϟϟ for a bigger payday, than in recording Psycho Circus. And we can argue how KIϟϟ might've rescheduled, or otherwise tried to accomidate, but ... no, I can't even fathom that happening.

Ace & Pete are fortunate to even be on the record. Pete, especially. But I love Psycho Circus, its my favorite album with the original lineup. As for the promos and all of those assurances they provided, hey ... thats advertising. You know? Thats just advertising for you ...

I think if we are REALLY being fair - Gene and Paul lowballed Ace and Peter and they had a valid reason to fight for more money, but had awful lawyers/managers.

Post by **RisingForce** » Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:10 pm

Bruce wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:39 pm To be fair -- and I do believe this -- Ace & Pete were more interested in their lawyers strong arming KIϟϟ for a bigger payday, than in recording Psycho Circus. And we can argue how KIϟϟ might've rescheduled, or otherwise tried to accomidate, but ... no, I can't even fathom that happening.

Ace & Pete are fortunate to even be on the record. Pete, especially. But I love Psycho Circus, its my favorite album with the original lineup. As for the promos and all of those assurances they provided, hey ... thats advertising. You know? Thats just advertising for you ...

It was Paul & Gene who decided to minimize Ace's and Peter's involvement in Psycho Circus. Per Bruce Kulick :

"Well, honestly, although I wasn’t in the band, I was aware of some politics with that album. Gene and Paul didn’t really feel it was in their best interest to have Ace and Peter on all the performances."

doombies · Post by **doombies** » Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:12 pm

Gtokyle wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:54 pm Call me crazy if you must but I feel really ripped off knowing that I bought Kiss albums that all 4 of them didn't play every song on. To me it’s like buying an autographed pic on EBay and finding out it is a fake signature. Am I missing something here? Anyone else feel cheated? Was it Psycho Circus that Ace only played one song on and Peter didn’t play anything at all? But yet they sell the album with all 4 originals pics on them? I go back to the mid 70s as a Kiss fan and rushed out to buy Psycho Circus as soon as it was available. Sorry if this subject has been beat to death but come on!!!! Ridiculous!

you still haven’t gotten over it?

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:15 pm

RisingForce wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:10 pm It was Paul & Gene who decided to minimize Ace's and Peter's involvement in Psycho Circus. Per Bruce Kulick :

"Well, honestly, although I wasn’t in the band, I was aware of some politics with that album. Gene and Paul didn’t really feel it was in their best interest to have Ace and Peter on all the performances."

Thank you for clarifying the issue!

... I was wrong.

Nellcote71 · Post by **Nellcote71** » Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:19 pm

TheSpoiler wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:13 pm
Nellcote71 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:01 pm
Bruce wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:39 pm To be fair -- and I do believe this -- Ace & Pete were more interested in their lawyers strong arming KIϟϟ for a bigger payday, than in recording Psycho Circus. And we can argue how KIϟϟ might've rescheduled, or otherwise tried to accomidate, but ... no, I can't even fathom that happening.

Ace & Pete are fortunate to even be on the record. Pete, especially. But I love Psycho Circus, its my favorite album with the original lineup. As for the promos and all of those assurances they provided, hey ... thats advertising. You know? Thats just advertising for you ...
What a bunch of horseshit
You have evidence to the contrary?

Please go ahead and post it.

Which poster are you today???

rscott71 · Post by **rscott71** » Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:21 pm

Every other song, in every other kind of music, has studio guys on it. Even acts named "The Zac Brown Band" uses studio guys and learns the songs for the tour. Every other song in every other kind of music

Soylent Gene · Post by **Soylent Gene** » Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:21 pm

Get over it.

Four-Who-Are-One · Post by **Four-Who-Are-One** » Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:45 pm

Bruce wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:14 pm "Salsa" ... sir?

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:46 pm

There you go! Thats it.

joma5477 · Post by **joma5477** » Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:47 pm

Gtokyle wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:24 pm With all due respect to anyone that disagrees with me, if Peter didn’t play on Psycho Circus at all then why put his pic on the album cover? Could it be to dupe us and sell more albums? Well, we know the answer to this question obviously. Thanks for letting me vent. Sure wish I could get a refund! I feel Paul and Gene owe us an apology.

If it makes you feel any better, Peter did play on Into the Void... And obviously he sang on the two tunes where you hear his vocals.

thundergod76 · Post by **thundergod76** » Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:58 pm

Maybe this is a dumb question but...If a producer wants a certain sound or a band member to play their instrument a certain way and that member(s) aren't skilled enough to accomplish this. Why doesn't the producer just let the band record the songs to the best of their abilities? Why the need for ghost or session players to come in and try to fake a bands sound? Its been common practice forever but its just a dishonest way to sell a band. Let the band play the best they are capable of playing. If they suck then they suck. And the record company can cut them loose. Let the band succeed or fail on their own merits.

jmitzel · Post by **jmitzel** » Wed Nov 25, 2020 1:27 pm

Gtokyle wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:54 pm Call me crazy if you must but I feel really ripped off knowing that I bought Kiss albums that all 4 of them didn't play every song on. To me it’s like buying an autographed pic on EBay and finding out it is a fake signature. Am I missing something here? Anyone else feel cheated? Was it Psycho Circus that Ace only played one song on and Peter didn’t play anything at all? But yet they sell the album with all 4 originals pics on them? I go back to the mid 70s as a Kiss fan and rushed out to buy Psycho Circus as soon as it was available. Sorry if this subject has been beat to death but come on!!!! Ridiculous!

I wouldn’t say I feel “ripped off”; more so, disappointed overall.

jannep17 · Post by **jannep17** » Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:25 pm

Gtokyle wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:54 pm Call me crazy if you must but I feel really ripped off knowing that I bought Kiss albums that all 4 of them didn't play every song on. To me it’s like buying an autographed pic on EBay and finding out it is a fake signature. Am I missing something here? Anyone else feel cheated? Was it Psycho Circus that Ace only played one song on and Peter didn’t play anything at all? But yet they sell the album with all 4 originals pics on them? I go back to the mid 70s as a Kiss fan and rushed out to buy Psycho Circus as soon as it was available. Sorry if this subject has been beat to death but come on!!!! Ridiculous!

Are you the same guy who wanted to start a class action suit against Kiss for this?

Dr Borgo · Post by **Dr Borgo** » Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:40 pm

I never felt cheated. Destroyer is still my favorite album, and side four of Alive II is still awesome. Good songs are good songs. I guess the only way it would bother me is if there was a vocal from some dude not in the band. That would seem weird.

KrazySwede · Post by **KrazySwede** » Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:45 pm

Never really cared. As long as the songs were (largely) written by someone in KISS....and they clearly had no trouble delivering the goods live.

daltonic1 · Post by **daltonic1** » Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:47 pm

i think it kind of sucks, for sure. but it's always something i learned long after the fact, so it doesn't really change my enjoyment level of the record(s) in question, because i already like/dislike them.
i mean, i was 6 when Destroyer came out, finding out that Ace didn't play every solo 25/30 years later doesn't mean i like it less, i guess it just means i think they were a bunch of very hard working young people trying to keep on top of the wave.

muddfoot · Post by **muddfoot** » Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:57 pm

So how do we then feel about lip syncing?

DOUBLE DYNASTY · Post by **DOUBLE DYNASTY** » Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:57 pm

Gtokyle wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:54 pm Call me crazy if you must but I feel really ripped off knowing that I bought Kiss albums that all 4 of them didn't play every song on. To me it’s like buying an autographed pic on EBay and finding out it is a fake signature. Am I missing something here? Anyone else feel cheated? Was it Psycho Circus that Ace only played one song on and Peter didn’t play anything at all? But yet they sell the album with all 4 originals pics on them? I go back to the mid 70s as a Kiss fan and rushed out to buy Psycho Circus as soon as it was available. Sorry if this subject has been beat to death but come on!!!! Ridiculous!

Did you also feel that way about "Destroyer", "Alive II", "Dynasty" and "Unmasked"?

DOUBLE DYNASTY · Post by **DOUBLE DYNASTY** » Wed Nov 25, 2020 3:03 pm

thundergod76 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:58 pm Maybe this is a dumb question but...If a producer wants a certain sound or a band member to play their instrument a certain way and that member(s) aren't skilled enough to accomplish this. Why doesn't the producer just let the band record the songs to the best of their abilities? Why the need for ghost or session players to come in and try to fake a bands sound? Its been common practice forever but its just a dishonest way to sell a band. Let the band play the best they are capable of playing. If they suck then they suck. And the record company can cut them loose. Let the band succeed or fail on their own merits.

Because that's not the way things are done and it is NOT the way to get the best possible results. Yeah, let the producer work with musicians who aren't skilled enough to pull off his vision just so a handful of fans can have some "warm, fuzzy feelings"? HA! No thanks!

DOUBLE DYNASTY · Post by **DOUBLE DYNASTY** » Wed Nov 25, 2020 3:04 pm

Just like they should have brought Ace in instead to pull off all that guitar work on "Lick it up".

YEAH, RIGHT!!

atowntommy · Post by **atowntommy** » Wed Nov 25, 2020 3:34 pm

Bruce wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:39 pm To be fair -- and I do believe this -- Ace & Pete were more interested in their lawyers strong arming KIϟϟ for a bigger payday, than in recording Psycho Circus. And we can argue how KIϟϟ might've rescheduled, or otherwise tried to accomidate, but ... no, I can't even fathom that happening.

Ace & Pete are fortunate to even be on the record. Pete, especially. But I love Psycho Circus, its my favorite album with the original lineup. As for the promos and all of those assurances they provided, hey ... thats advertising. You know? Thats just advertising for you ...

Yep. Here in the US and A, at one point ( and maybe even still now), products were allowed to claim that they were "new and improved," without doing anything at all to the product. Add in the concept of "puffery" as well as "weasel words" and it all adds up to "buyer beware."

Anyone who looks for integrity and purity and other things that apply to legitimate art, is on a fool's errand looking for them in the mainstream entertainment areas of music and film.

stutterer · Post by **stutterer** » Wed Nov 25, 2020 3:53 pm

An ideal situation would be members subbing for each other when somebody's not up to task, not outside characters. Though nowadays if the playing sucks it's the producer/engineer who rerecords parts himself.

Andy Capp · Post by **Andy Capp** » Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:45 pm

JohnBergless wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:11 pm That’s kind of like when you find a great salsa at the grocery store. You read the label thinking, oh this stuff is awesome; it must be hand made fresh by that little man or woman depicted right on the front of the bottle.... then you find out it doesn’t say “Produced by ______”; or “Made in __________”; all it says is, “DISTRIBUTED BY _______________”. That little man depicted on the label didn’t do squat did he? But you can still enjoy the salsa, regardless

old Andy intakes quite a bit of Salsa--- he would like to know what kinds you enjoy????

joma5477 · Post by **joma5477** » Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:50 pm

Andy Capp wrote: ↑Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:45 pm
old Andy intakes quite a bit of Salsa--- he would like to know what kinds you enjoy????

Spicy with lots of cilantro...if you care what middle-aged joma has to say.

Andy Capp · Post by **Andy Capp** » Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:52 pm

joma5477 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:50 pm
Andy Capp wrote: ↑Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:45 pm
old Andy intakes quite a bit of Salsa--- he would like to know what kinds you enjoy????
Spicy with lots of cilantro...if you care what middle-aged joma has to say.

Old Andy said yes... yes he does---- and he says thanks