What If Eric Carr Was the Original Drummer

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Re: What If Eric Carr Was the Original Drummer

Post by Forevertj »

Kiss would have been a much bigger band. Eric could and did write songs. Peter never wrote a note. Eric was a better drummer and a better person. No drama. Kiss would have been absolutely HUGE with a guy that didn't do drugs, punch his wife and complain about everything. The best Kiss ever was 1980. Nothing tops that for me.
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Re: What If Eric Carr Was the Original Drummer

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Forevertj wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:22 am Kiss would have been a much bigger band. Eric could and did write songs. Peter never wrote a note. Eric was a better drummer and a better person. No drama. Kiss would have been absolutely HUGE with a guy that didn't do drugs, punch his wife and complain about everything. The best Kiss ever was 1980. Nothing tops that for me.
...Just as this thread was slowing down!
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Re: What If Eric Carr Was the Original Drummer

Post by Phyllis Simmons »

41Mets wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 2:21 am
Phyllis Simmons wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 1:20 am The Beth argument is obviously a very good one re career trajectory; and that without it real questions can be asked about how it may have panned out.

Maybe, just maybe Ezrin as “musical director’ forces Paul to write a cross over ballad for Destroyer. Maybe we get Hard Luck Woman a year earlier; a song probably just as good. Maybe that is the song that shows KISS’ other dimensions and gets traction? A lot of maybe’s for sure. That’s why these hypotheticals can be interesting.
Hard Luck Woman already had the boost of greater possible initial exposure as Kiss was already more popular and it was another Peter fronted tune. And it was a minor hit. So something else would have had to magically appear to turn the fortunes at that point. And who knows if it even happens. It was not just the song itself it was also the timing of it. That kind of convergence of factors and all the other elements involved in the timelines of it is very hard to conceive of being replaced to the same levels of impact. Fun it can be but difficult to see it being effectively replicated.
Fair points. A lot of things lined up for Beth and then the results of that.
I dont buy the story that it is all over though had that not happened..
However ....
Maybe they stay a Gold+ level act for the decade. No shame in that...
One real good thing they had going for them was 2 band leaders with a very decent work ethic and drive; and both in a hot spot of creativity. (Paul more so; Gene's peak for me was tthe first 3 albums). I just think because of that something else would have happened for them. I'm a believer in you make your own luck; and they definitely did.

Maybe they go to a bigger label Warners or whatever the talk was and they get a bigger push than what Casablanca did. Maybe a different story pans out? :D
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Re: What If Eric Carr Was the Original Drummer

Post by 41Mets »

Forevertj wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:22 am Kiss would have been a much bigger band. Eric could and did write songs. Peter never wrote a note. Eric was a better drummer and a better person. No drama. Kiss would have been absolutely HUGE with a guy that didn't do drugs, punch his wife and complain about everything. The best Kiss ever was 1980. Nothing tops that for me.
In 1980 Kiss were headed downward. Kiss never needed Peter to write anything and he still brought the,most pivotal song in band history to them. All the things you say about Peters personality never prevented them from becoming huge. Eric never did anything to boost the popularity of the band or showed he had such potential if given the chance. I get and respect you like Eric better but it's more about real impact than personal preference.

Hope all is well with you and that you had a good Thanksgiving.
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Re: What If Eric Carr Was the Original Drummer

Post by 41Mets »

Phyllis Simmons wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:53 am
41Mets wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 2:21 am
Phyllis Simmons wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 1:20 am The Beth argument is obviously a very good one re career trajectory; and that without it real questions can be asked about how it may have panned out.

Maybe, just maybe Ezrin as “musical director’ forces Paul to write a cross over ballad for Destroyer. Maybe we get Hard Luck Woman a year earlier; a song probably just as good. Maybe that is the song that shows KISS’ other dimensions and gets traction? A lot of maybe’s for sure. That’s why these hypotheticals can be interesting.
Hard Luck Woman already had the boost of greater possible initial exposure as Kiss was already more popular and it was another Peter fronted tune. And it was a minor hit. So something else would have had to magically appear to turn the fortunes at that point. And who knows if it even happens. It was not just the song itself it was also the timing of it. That kind of convergence of factors and all the other elements involved in the timelines of it is very hard to conceive of being replaced to the same levels of impact. Fun it can be but difficult to see it being effectively replicated.
Fair points. A lot of things lined up for Beth and then the results of that.
I dont buy the story that it is all over though had that not happened..
However ....
Maybe they stay a Gold+ level act for the decade. No shame in that...
One real good thing they had going for them was 2 band leaders with a very decent work ethic and drive; and both in a hot spot of creativity. (Paul more so; Gene's peak for me was tthe first 3 albums). I just think because of that something else would have happened for them. I'm a believer in you make your own luck; and they definitely did.

Maybe they go to a bigger label Warners or whatever the talk was and they get a bigger push than what Casablanca did. Maybe a different story pans out? :D
All good points. I believe they could have maintained a lower level of respectable cult popularity.

It is hard to make your own luck in the music biz very often though.
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Re: What If Eric Carr Was the Original Drummer

Post by sabresaxon »

Unfortunately G+P believe they were always destined for greatness and everyone else who helped make KISS successful were just lucky to be along for ride.

That’s why A+P aren’t invited to guest at the last shows because the spotlight needs to be on G+P during their ‘victory lap’.
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Re: What If Eric Carr Was the Original Drummer

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I was always impressed at how well Eric’s make-up was applied out of the gate (I know he good teachers).

The others took years to get it looking so sharp and crisp but he got it down pat straight away.
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Re: What If Eric Carr Was the Original Drummer

Post by Forevertj »

41Mets wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 2:41 am
Forevertj wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:22 am Kiss would have been a much bigger band. Eric could and did write songs. Peter never wrote a note. Eric was a better drummer and a better person. No drama. Kiss would have been absolutely HUGE with a guy that didn't do drugs, punch his wife and complain about everything. The best Kiss ever was 1980. Nothing tops that for me.
In 1980 Kiss were headed downward. Kiss never needed Peter to write anything and he still brought the,most pivotal song in band history to them. All the things you say about Peters personality never prevented them from becoming huge. Eric never did anything to boost the popularity of the band or showed he had such potential if given the chance. I get and respect you like Eric better but it's more about real impact than personal preference.

Hope all is well with you and that you had a good Thanksgiving.


Thanks a lot man!

I was figuring that Beth would not have been necessary due to the songs he wrote that we got to hear on the tribute to his life cd's. He had some pretty good songs.

One thing that annoys me about thanksgiving at my brother's house is that the food is ALWAYS cold. I don't know why they bother having the electric server trays if it's going to be cold anyway. I was able to avoid eating the fattening stuff. 8)
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Re: What If Eric Carr Was the Original Drummer

Post by 41Mets »

Forevertj wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:42 am
41Mets wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 2:41 am
Forevertj wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:22 am Kiss would have been a much bigger band. Eric could and did write songs. Peter never wrote a note. Eric was a better drummer and a better person. No drama. Kiss would have been absolutely HUGE with a guy that didn't do drugs, punch his wife and complain about everything. The best Kiss ever was 1980. Nothing tops that for me.
In 1980 Kiss were headed downward. Kiss never needed Peter to write anything and he still brought the,most pivotal song in band history to them. All the things you say about Peters personality never prevented them from becoming huge. Eric never did anything to boost the popularity of the band or showed he had such potential if given the chance. I get and respect you like Eric better but it's more about real impact than personal preference.

Hope all is well with you and that you had a good Thanksgiving.


Thanks a lot man!

I was figuring that Beth would not have been necessary due to the songs he wrote that we got to hear on the tribute to his life cd's. He had some pretty good songs.

One thing that annoys me about thanksgiving at my brother's house is that the food is ALWAYS cold. I don't know why they bother having the electric server trays if it's going to be cold anyway. I was able to avoid eating the fattening stuff. 8)
You may have liked those songs but none of those are known to anyone but major diehard fans and cannot be compared to a proven hit.

Hope you had a good time overall.
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Re: What If Eric Carr Was the Original Drummer

Post by Grand Classic »

Forevertj wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:22 am Kiss would have been a much bigger band. Eric could and did write songs. Peter never wrote a note. Eric was a better drummer and a better person. No drama. Kiss would have been absolutely HUGE with a guy that didn't do drugs, punch his wife and complain about everything. The best Kiss ever was 1980. Nothing tops that for me.
Are you aiming for most delusional post of the year?

There is ZERO indication that Eric Carr was some hitmaker with Rockology and other demos - that Paul and Gene were holding back from the world.

Yes, he should have been allowed to have a song on every album, but they were NEVER going to be hit songs and certainly wouldn't have made KISS a much bigger band.

What you prefer is something different.
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Re: What If Eric Carr Was the Original Drummer

Post by TheSpoiler »

Grand Classic wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:25 pm
There is ZERO indication that Eric Carr was some hitmaker with Rockology and other demos - that Paul and Gene were holding back from the world.
You'll inevitably disagree HeyMan, but:

Eyes of Love
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Re: What If Eric Carr Was the Original Drummer

Post by TheSphinx »

Grand Classic wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 9:30 pm
While I do think Eyes Of Love should have been on HITS - the Rockology album gave no indication that he was a hit maker that Paul and Gene were suppressing.

I don't think KISS would have lasted much longer without Beth anyway. Casablanca needed KISS to pay off with hit songs and albums. If there was no Beth, you might have been saved from ever hearing Hard Luck Woman on Rock And Roll Over.

I don't get all these people thinking Eric Carr was some great songwriter. Pretty much everything was PURE FILLER.

And most of Eric's songs there's 3-4 co-writers on it. When Eric is relying on another "Filler Writer" Bruce Kulick to "flesh out" songs....


There's two good Eric Carr co-writes AIN'T NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS and ALL HELLS BREAKING LOOSE.... but how many others contributed to those 2?
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Re: What If Eric Carr Was the Original Drummer

Post by Grand Classic »

TheSpoiler wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:33 pm
Grand Classic wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:25 pm
There is ZERO indication that Eric Carr was some hitmaker with Rockology and other demos - that Paul and Gene were holding back from the world.
You'll inevitably disagree HeyMan, but:

Eyes of Love
Yes, it should have been on Hot In The Shade instead of Little Caesar. That would be his ONE good song, but in no universe is that going to be a hit song or take KISS to some new level.
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Re: What If Eric Carr Was the Original Drummer

Post by TheSphinx »

Forevertj wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:22 am Kiss would have been a much bigger band. Eric could and did write songs. Peter never wrote a note. Eric was a better drummer and a better person. No drama. Kiss would have been absolutely HUGE with a guy that didn't do drugs, punch his wife and complain about everything. The best Kiss ever was 1980. Nothing tops that for me.

This is so laughable. Most of Eric's co-writes were with the KINGS of "Kiss Filler" Adam Mitchell and Bruce Kulick.

Now was it right for Gene and Paul to include so much BRUCE FILLER on albums instead of putting some ERIC filler on there too.... yeah.... that was BS

No drama with Eric? You mean sitting around your room naked with the room completely dark alot of the time is normal? And that was in the earlier KISS years. That was long before he wasn't talking at all to Paul.


It was PETER whose voice sounded so good that helped MAKE KISS. Black DIamond, Nothing To Lose, Beth etc. That's the CAT MAN!


And you are acting like Eric would have still been in KISS had he lived. He knew he was on the way out regardless. Gene and Paul would have tossed him aside.
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Re: What If Eric Carr Was the Original Drummer

Post by TheSphinx »

Grand Classic wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:56 pm
Yes, it should have been on Hot In The Shade instead of Little Caesar. That would be his ONE good song, but in no universe is that going to be a hit song or take KISS to some new level.

It's better than LITTLE CAESAR but it would still be one more FILLER TRACK on HITS



It sounds like it belongs on SILENT RAGE's DON'T TOUCH ME THERE 1990 Simmons Records release

Would have been better than the Kulick/Mitchell "All Night Long"
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Re: What If Eric Carr Was the Original Drummer

Post by Grand Classic »

TheSphinx wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 2:09 pm
Grand Classic wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:56 pm
Yes, it should have been on Hot In The Shade instead of Little Caesar. That would be his ONE good song, but in no universe is that going to be a hit song or take KISS to some new level.

It's better than LITTLE CAESAR but it would still be one more FILLER TRACK on HITS



It sounds like it belongs on SILENT RAGE's DON'T TOUCH ME THERE 1990 Simmons Records release

Would have been better than the Kulick/Mitchell "All Night Long"
I fully support the idea that they should have given Eric his own song for every album and be able to write more with Paul and Gene on their songs, but it is just fucking delusional for anyone to have this idea that Eric Carr was sitting on hit songs that the world was deprived of hearing.
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Re: What If Eric Carr Was the Original Drummer

Post by TheSpoiler »

Grand Classic wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:56 pm
TheSpoiler wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:33 pm
Grand Classic wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:25 pm
There is ZERO indication that Eric Carr was some hitmaker with Rockology and other demos - that Paul and Gene were holding back from the world.
You'll inevitably disagree HeyMan, but:

Eyes of Love
Yes, it should have been on Hot In The Shade instead of Little Caesar. That would be his ONE good song, but in no universe is that going to be a hit song or take KISS to some new level.
Because you have decided that's the case? What if it snagged heavy airplay? "In no universe is that going to be a hit song" smacks of "I've decided" in what is by design an entirely hypothetical thread. :lol:
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Re: What If Eric Carr Was the Original Drummer

Post by Grand Classic »

TheSpoiler wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 2:16 pm
Grand Classic wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:56 pm
TheSpoiler wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:33 pm
Grand Classic wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:25 pm
There is ZERO indication that Eric Carr was some hitmaker with Rockology and other demos - that Paul and Gene were holding back from the world.
You'll inevitably disagree HeyMan, but:

Eyes of Love
Yes, it should have been on Hot In The Shade instead of Little Caesar. That would be his ONE good song, but in no universe is that going to be a hit song or take KISS to some new level.
Because you have decided that's the case? What if it snagged heavy airplay? "In no universe is that going to be a hit song" smacks of "I've decided" in what is by design an entirely hypothetical thread. :lol:
Snagged heavy airplay. LOL. Don't say dumb things. Paul and Gene couldn't snag heavy airplay, so it sure as shit won't be a Eric Carr song that they would never release a single anyway.
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Re: What If Eric Carr Was the Original Drummer

Post by TheSphinx »

joma5477 wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 6:09 pm Beth was a hit...but it looks like Beth and Forever were fairly comparable hits... Did Forever completely change the landscape of the band? I don't think it did... I think people are maybe overstating the importance of Beth just a bit.

There is NOTHING COMPARABLE AT ALL with Beth and the "plastic hit" Forever! NOTHING!

Beth sold over 1M copies of its single....

Beth took a STALLED album and pushed it to multi-platinum (although not RIAA certified) status. And Destroyer remains their best selling studio album around 5M or so in the US.

KISS popularity etc exploded. They would not have been doing KISS Meets The Phantom, 4 solo albums etc if not for Destroyer being so big.


Forever was just a song that was MANIUPLATED on the charts (as the admin has pointed out... and of course that's where "Plastic Hit" came from as well.


Forever did virtually NOTHING for the horrible sales of "Hot In The Shade". An album that took until May 1992 to sell 650,000 (according to their label).

HITS was selling so terribly that KISS' label did a survey during the HITS tour why KISS fans weren't buying it.

KISS saw a small bump in attendance on the HITS tour....but that is ALL BECAUSE of SLAUGHTER and a lesser extent Winger being on the bill. Without those 2 acts bringing in a ton of teenage girls..... HITS would have probably done worse than the Revenge tour.


And all the nonsense of FOREVER helping them tour..... where was Forever on the charts mid-Feb (when the tour was being booked etc)?


There's way to many KISS MYTH's about FOREVER.... that are just urban legends or band spin.


Remember.... Gene and Paul were ALREADY BASHING "Forever" in interviews for REVENGE.
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Re: What If Eric Carr Was the Original Drummer

Post by Grand Classic »

TheSphinx wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 2:22 pm
joma5477 wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 6:09 pm Beth was a hit...but it looks like Beth and Forever were fairly comparable hits... Did Forever completely change the landscape of the band? I don't think it did... I think people are maybe overstating the importance of Beth just a bit.

There is NOTHING COMPARABLE AT ALL with Beth and the "plastic hit" Forever! NOTHING!

Beth sold over 1M copies of its single....

Beth took a STALLED album and pushed it to multi-platinum (although not RIAA certified) status. And Destroyer remains their best selling studio album around 5M or so in the US.

KISS popularity etc exploded. They would not have been doing KISS Meets The Phantom, 4 solo albums etc if not for Destroyer being so big.


Forever was just a song that was MANIUPLATED on the charts (as the admin has pointed out... and of course that's where "Plastic Hit" came from as well.


Forever did virtually NOTHING for the horrible sales of "Hot In The Shade". An album that took until May 1992 to sell 650,000 (according to their label).

HITS was selling so terribly that KISS' label did a survey during the HITS tour why KISS fans weren't buying it.

KISS saw a small bump in attendance on the HITS tour....but that is ALL BECAUSE of SLAUGHTER and a lesser extent Winger being on the bill. Without those 2 acts bringing in a ton of teenage girls..... HITS would have probably done worse than the Revenge tour.


And all the nonsense of FOREVER helping them tour..... where was Forever on the charts mid-Feb (when the tour was being booked etc)?


There's way to many KISS MYTH's about FOREVER.... that are just urban legends or band spin.


Remember.... Gene and Paul were ALREADY BASHING "Forever" in interviews for REVENGE.
When was the last time supposed hit Forever was in regular tour rotation - you know, because people are dying to hear it and would be furious if such a landmark song wasn't played. Like going to see Aerosmith and they don't play Walk This Way.

Yet KISS are playing Beth now.
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Re: What If Eric Carr Was the Original Drummer

Post by Forevertj »

Grand Classic wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:25 pm
Forevertj wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:22 am Kiss would have been a much bigger band. Eric could and did write songs. Peter never wrote a note. Eric was a better drummer and a better person. No drama. Kiss would have been absolutely HUGE with a guy that didn't do drugs, punch his wife and complain about everything. The best Kiss ever was 1980. Nothing tops that for me.
Are you aiming for most delusional post of the year?

There is ZERO indication that Eric Carr was some hitmaker with Rockology and other demos - that Paul and Gene were holding back from the world.

Yes, he should have been allowed to have a song on every album, but they were NEVER going to be hit songs and certainly wouldn't have made KISS a much bigger band.

What you prefer is something different.

Insults are pointless. You can do better than that. I am entitled to my opinion without being insulted.
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Re: What If Eric Carr Was the Original Drummer

Post by TheSpoiler »

Grand Classic wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 2:21 pm
TheSpoiler wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 2:16 pm
Grand Classic wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:56 pm
TheSpoiler wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:33 pm
Grand Classic wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:25 pm
There is ZERO indication that Eric Carr was some hitmaker with Rockology and other demos - that Paul and Gene were holding back from the world.
You'll inevitably disagree HeyMan, but:

Eyes of Love
Yes, it should have been on Hot In The Shade instead of Little Caesar. That would be his ONE good song, but in no universe is that going to be a hit song or take KISS to some new level.
Because you have decided that's the case? What if it snagged heavy airplay? "In no universe is that going to be a hit song" smacks of "I've decided" in what is by design an entirely hypothetical thread. :lol:
Snagged heavy airplay. LOL. Don't say dumb things. Paul and Gene couldn't snag heavy airplay, so it sure as shit won't be a Eric Carr song that they would never release a single anyway.
OK HeyMan. You get to dictate the acceptable parameters of hypothetical universes now. :lol:
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Re: What If Eric Carr Was the Original Drummer

Post by Forevertj »

TheSphinx wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 2:06 pm
Forevertj wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:22 am Kiss would have been a much bigger band. Eric could and did write songs. Peter never wrote a note. Eric was a better drummer and a better person. No drama. Kiss would have been absolutely HUGE with a guy that didn't do drugs, punch his wife and complain about everything. The best Kiss ever was 1980. Nothing tops that for me.

This is so laughable. Most of Eric's co-writes were with the KINGS of "Kiss Filler" Adam Mitchell and Bruce Kulick.

Now was it right for Gene and Paul to include so much BRUCE FILLER on albums instead of putting some ERIC filler on there too.... yeah.... that was BS

No drama with Eric? You mean sitting around your room naked with the room completely dark alot of the time is normal? And that was in the earlier KISS years. That was long before he wasn't talking at all to Paul.


It was PETER whose voice sounded so good that helped MAKE KISS. Black DIamond, Nothing To Lose, Beth etc. That's the CAT MAN!


And you are acting like Eric would have still been in KISS had he lived. He knew he was on the way out regardless. Gene and Paul would have tossed him aside.



Who knows? This threat is hypothetical. Anything goes. I think Peter was the weakest link. They would have been better with Eric. Attacking for that opinion is lame. Disagree and move on.
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Re: What If Eric Carr Was the Original Drummer

Post by Forevertj »

THREAD, not threat.
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Re: What If Eric Carr Was the Original Drummer

Post by Grand Classic »

TheSpoiler wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 2:38 pm
Grand Classic wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 2:21 pm
TheSpoiler wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 2:16 pm
Grand Classic wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:56 pm
TheSpoiler wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:33 pm
Grand Classic wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:25 pm
There is ZERO indication that Eric Carr was some hitmaker with Rockology and other demos - that Paul and Gene were holding back from the world.
You'll inevitably disagree HeyMan, but:

Eyes of Love
Yes, it should have been on Hot In The Shade instead of Little Caesar. That would be his ONE good song, but in no universe is that going to be a hit song or take KISS to some new level.
Because you have decided that's the case? What if it snagged heavy airplay? "In no universe is that going to be a hit song" smacks of "I've decided" in what is by design an entirely hypothetical thread. :lol:
Snagged heavy airplay. LOL. Don't say dumb things. Paul and Gene couldn't snag heavy airplay, so it sure as shit won't be a Eric Carr song that they would never release a single anyway.
OK HeyMan. You get to dictate the acceptable parameters of hypothetical universes now. :lol:
You still need to be realistic given what we know about KISS and the way they have done things. You are not realistic at all. Paul is never allowing for an Eric Carr song to be a single/video even if it is the best song on the album.

Did you just become a KISS fan last week?
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Re: What If Eric Carr Was the Original Drummer

Post by joma5477 »

Grand Classic wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:25 pm
Are you aiming for most delusional post of the year?

There is ZERO indication that Eric Carr was some hitmaker with Rockology and other demos - that Paul and Gene were holding back from the world.

Yes, he should have been allowed to have a song on every album, but they were NEVER going to be hit songs and certainly wouldn't have made KISS a much bigger band.

What you prefer is something different.
I can't say there would have been a likely hit from Eric, but have you heard the original version of Beth? I wouldn't say it's bad,, but it sure as hell doesnt sound like a hit... I don't think you can fairly judge Eric based on a CD full of demos. A good producer can do wonders for a song.
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Re: What If Eric Carr Was the Original Drummer

Post by Grand Classic »

joma5477 wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 3:54 pm
Grand Classic wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:25 pm
Are you aiming for most delusional post of the year?

There is ZERO indication that Eric Carr was some hitmaker with Rockology and other demos - that Paul and Gene were holding back from the world.

Yes, he should have been allowed to have a song on every album, but they were NEVER going to be hit songs and certainly wouldn't have made KISS a much bigger band.

What you prefer is something different.
I can't say there would have been a likely hit from Eric, but have you heard the original version of Beth? I wouldn't say it's bad,, but it sure as hell doesnt sound like a hit... I don't think you can fairly judge Eric based on a CD full of demos. A good producer can do wonders for a song.
Fair point, however - Bob Ezrin cracked the whip on Destroyer and they listened to him and did what they were told.

Paul and Gene hated that. Which is why they often self-produced or just hired someone they could control. So a good producer to shape Eric's song was never going to happen. Hell, KISS didn't even want to do wonders for their own songs and released demos to the world with HITS.
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Re: What If Eric Carr Was the Original Drummer

Post by 41Mets »

TheSpoiler wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:33 pm
Grand Classic wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:25 pm
There is ZERO indication that Eric Carr was some hitmaker with Rockology and other demos - that Paul and Gene were holding back from the world.
You'll inevitably disagree HeyMan, but:

Eyes of Love
No one knows these songs except super hardcore diehards. If you like it personally, I can see that though. There is nothing to suggest it had hit potential. It is very rare that something resonated outside of the core fanbase and nothing Eric Carr created in that regard would indicate the potential of a hit. But he did a good job at the right time when he was picked to replace Pete.
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Re: What If Eric Carr Was the Original Drummer

Post by joma5477 »

Grand Classic wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 4:01 pm
Fair point, however - Bob Ezrin cracked the whip on Destroyer and they listened to him and did what they were told.

Paul and Gene hated that. Which is why they often self-produced or just hired someone they could control. So a good producer to shape Eric's song was never going to happen. Hell, KISS didn't even want to do wonders for their own songs and released demos to the world with HITS.
Well, in this admittedly pointless hypothetical, Eric would have been the drummer to work with Ezrin and possibly do some magic on his offering(s). Assuming history doesn't erase them working with Ezrin.

I think the biggest difference in this hypothetical is Eric is a full member with equal say instead of an employee with none, though. I don't know if that helps the bands cause or otherwise, but I do think it results in a different sounding band, for better or for worse. No one knows what that band sounds like, though,, so it's hard to say what would have been.
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Re: What If Eric Carr Was the Original Drummer

Post by TheSpoiler »

Grand Classic wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 2:48 pm

You still need to be realistic given what we know about KISS and the way they have done things. You are not realistic at all. Paul is never allowing for an Eric Carr song to be a single/video even if it is the best song on the album.

Did you just become a KISS fan last week?
We don't need to be realistic at all. It's 100% hypothetical. I know you enjoy being wilfully contrary to pretty much everything possible, but in this thread, all bets are off. Can you cope with that? Try to adapt. This is all fun stuff, and you don't have to win every argument. Dial down your insecurities and enjoy the back and forth.
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Re: What If Eric Carr Was the Original Drummer

Post by 41Mets »

If Eric had some potentially outstanding songwriting chops, the band or someone in their circle would have picked up on that at some point. Yes, he may have been held back, but if the stuff was really good ultimately they would have worked out a way to make it part of the mix because of how it could have helped. Kiss only had three major charting hits in their entire career, so the odds on coming up with a hit in the first place were so low, and it would be so hard to recreate the timelines and convergence of events that produced Beth. Yes, it is a Fantasy scenario, but Eric writing some sort of a major hit does not seem to have much of basis to grow even a fantasy scenario from.
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Re: What If Eric Carr Was the Original Drummer

Post by steve »

41Mets wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 4:52 pmEric writing some sort of a major hit does not seem to have much of basis to grow even a fantasy scenario from.
Peter didn't write any hits either. Or, come to that, any songs at all. What he did was attach his name to songs written by Stan Penridge and, in the case of Beth, significantly reworked by Bob Ezrin.

Eric could write songs, play several instruments besides the drums and sing very well. Had he been in KISS from day one and treated as a founding member rather than a hired gun, the dynamic between himself and the others, Paul in particular, would have turned out very differently and given Eric ample opportunity to use his talents.
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Re: What If Eric Carr Was the Original Drummer

Post by Grand Classic »

TheSpoiler wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 4:45 pm
Grand Classic wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 2:48 pm

You still need to be realistic given what we know about KISS and the way they have done things. You are not realistic at all. Paul is never allowing for an Eric Carr song to be a single/video even if it is the best song on the album.

Did you just become a KISS fan last week?
We don't need to be realistic at all. It's 100% hypothetical. I know you enjoy being wilfully contrary to pretty much everything possible, but in this thread, all bets are off. Can you cope with that? Try to adapt. This is all fun stuff, and you don't have to win every argument. Dial down your insecurities and enjoy the back and forth.
This is completely ridiculous, which isn't surprising coming from you.

So we are to pretend now that Eric Carr had songwriting abilities that he didn't remotely possess and would have brought KISS to a whole new level of album sales and success if only Gene and Paul gave him that freedom. Get the fuck out of here with this.

It is one thing to be hypothetical when it comes to the time frame of when Eric Carr joined KISS, but it is moronic to just make up abilities and skills that he didn't actually have. What if Eric Carr wrote Stairway To Heaven? It is that stupid.
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Re: What If Eric Carr Was the Original Drummer

Post by Grand Classic »

steve wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 6:35 pm
41Mets wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 4:52 pmEric writing some sort of a major hit does not seem to have much of basis to grow even a fantasy scenario from.
Peter didn't write any hits either. Or, come to that, any songs at all. What he did was attach his name to songs written by Stan Penridge and, in the case of Beth, significantly reworked by Bob Ezrin.

Eric could write songs, play several instruments besides the drums and sing very well. Had he been in KISS from day one and treated as a founding member rather than a hired gun, the dynamic between himself and the others, Paul in particular, would have turned out very differently and given Eric ample opportunity to use his talents.
From what we have heard in reality, he wasn't a strong enough songwriter to ever be a solo artist with those songs or for those songs to ever be worthy of being released as singles from a record label's point of view when they talk about hearing the single when they listen to the album.

He wasn't writing Love In An Elevator or even Cherry Pie. I am making this reference because Warrant's label didn't hear a single with their new album at the time either - they wanted a song like Elevator and thus Cherry Pie was born as the last song written for that album.

Eric's songs would just be buried like Little Caesar. The 8th or 9th track on an album outside of HITS being a 15 song album.
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Re: What If Eric Carr Was the Original Drummer

Post by Mr Slow »

sabresaxon wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 4:58 am Unfortunately G+P believe they were always destined for greatness and everyone else who helped make KISS successful were just lucky to be along for ride.

That’s why A+P aren’t invited to guest at the last shows because the spotlight needs to be on G+P during their ‘victory lap’.
That’s not actually correct. Doc confirmed everyone was invited.
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Re: What If Eric Carr Was the Original Drummer

Post by Mr Slow »

Grand Classic wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 2:48 pmPaul is never allowing for an Eric Carr song to be a single/video even if it is the best song on the album.

Did you just become a KISS fan last week?
Paul allowed Peter, Gene & Ace to have singles so why not Eric if he was an original?
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Re: What If Eric Carr Was the Original Drummer

Post by Grand Classic »

Mr Slow wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 6:51 pm
Grand Classic wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 2:48 pmPaul is never allowing for an Eric Carr song to be a single/video even if it is the best song on the album.

Did you just become a KISS fan last week?
Paul allowed Peter, Gene & Ace to have singles so why not Eric if he was an original?
I was speaking about the 80's. As for the 70's, it wasn't Paul's call. If Eric happened to write an imaginary great song that Casablanca deemed to be single worthy, then sure.
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Re: What If Eric Carr Was the Original Drummer

Post by sabresaxon »

Mr Slow wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 6:49 pm
sabresaxon wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 4:58 am Unfortunately G+P believe they were always destined for greatness and everyone else who helped make KISS successful were just lucky to be along for ride.

That’s why A+P aren’t invited to guest at the last shows because the spotlight needs to be on G+P during their ‘victory lap’.
That’s not actually correct. Doc confirmed everyone was invited.
To clarify, by ‘last shows’ I mean the actual last few shows ever, as in MSG or whatever. These will be G+P stroking themselves one last time.

Either way, I don’t believe what Doc says anymore than I believe G+P.
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Re: What If Eric Carr Was the Original Drummer

Post by Mr Slow »

Grand Classic wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 6:57 pm
Mr Slow wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 6:51 pm
Grand Classic wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 2:48 pmPaul is never allowing for an Eric Carr song to be a single/video even if it is the best song on the album.

Did you just become a KISS fan last week?
Paul allowed Peter, Gene & Ace to have singles so why not Eric if he was an original?
I was speaking about the 80's. As for the 70's, it wasn't Paul's call. If Eric happened to write an imaginary great song that Casablanca deemed to be single worthy, then sure.
Ah yep gotcha. I took that out of context. 👍
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Re: What If Eric Carr Was the Original Drummer

Post by 41Mets »

steve wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 6:35 pm
41Mets wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 4:52 pmEric writing some sort of a major hit does not seem to have much of basis to grow even a fantasy scenario from.
Peter didn't write any hits either. Or, come to that, any songs at all. What he did was attach his name to songs written by Stan Penridge and, in the case of Beth, significantly reworked by Bob Ezrin.

Eric could write songs, play several instruments besides the drums and sing very well. Had he been in KISS from day one and treated as a founding member rather than a hired gun, the dynamic between himself and the others, Paul in particular, would have turned out very differently and given Eric ample opportunity to use his talents.
Peter did not have to write Beth to make it happen. Without him, it does not happen. He is the one who brought it to the band, which is the most important initial element. Ezrin reworked the lyrics with inclusions from Peter's actual personal life. And Peter was the one who performed it and put the perfect touches on it vocally for those who enjoyed it. I did not even mention the fact he came up with the melody. But it's essential that the song never finds its way to Kiss without him, and Ezrin cultivated the song around him. Whether he was a good writer or not is not the point, he is the central and essential player in that song's role.

As for who sings better, that is a matter of personal preference, but Eric's impact would not have been much different there. As for what his songwriting talents were, I believe if they were really strong Paul and Gene or others would have recognized it at some point and simply had to let somehting happen there. But there was nothing there to suggest he could come up with something that had the potential to be any sort of hit. I am not knocking him, because Frehley never wrote a major hit either, and neither did Gene if you consider that RARAN was not quite a chart-topping hit initially. It has been extremely difficult for anyone in Kiss to deliver a chart-buster, and there is absolutely nothing to suggest that Eric had such potential.

The success of Beth was about much more than just who wrote it.
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Re: What If Eric Carr Was the Original Drummer

Post by jkiss »

41Mets wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:19 pm
steve wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 6:35 pm
41Mets wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 4:52 pmEric writing some sort of a major hit does not seem to have much of basis to grow even a fantasy scenario from.
Peter didn't write any hits either. Or, come to that, any songs at all. What he did was attach his name to songs written by Stan Penridge and, in the case of Beth, significantly reworked by Bob Ezrin.

Eric could write songs, play several instruments besides the drums and sing very well. Had he been in KISS from day one and treated as a founding member rather than a hired gun, the dynamic between himself and the others, Paul in particular, would have turned out very differently and given Eric ample opportunity to use his talents.
Peter did not have to write Beth to make it happen. Without him, it does not happen. He is the one who brought it to the band, which is the most important initial element. Ezrin reworked the lyrics with inclusions from Peter's actual personal life. And Peter was the one who performed it and put the perfect touches on it vocally for those who enjoyed it. I did not even mention the fact he came up with the melody. But it's essential that the song never finds its way to Kiss without him, and Ezrin cultivated the song around him. Whether he was a good writer or not is not the point, he is the central and essential player in that song's role.

As for who sings better, that is a matter of personal preference, but Eric's impact would not have been much different there. As for what his songwriting talents were, I believe if they were really strong Paul and Gene or others would have recognized it at some point and simply had to let somehting happen there. But there was nothing there to suggest he could come up with something that had the potential to be any sort of hit. I am not knocking him, because Frehley never wrote a major hit either, and neither did Gene if you consider that RARAN was not quite a chart-topping hit initially. It has been extremely difficult for anyone in Kiss to deliver a chart-buster, and there is absolutely nothing to suggest that Eric had such potential.

The success of Beth was about much more than just who wrote it.
You almost wonder what Bob could've done with Peter? They should've worked together when Peter first went solo ...maybe a whole different world for Peter had they scored a few more hits as at least as good as "Beth". Imagine Peter being bigger than KISS in 1981.

:scratch:

I had a little fantasy that it was I that took over the control of Peter's solo career (in the beginning - 1980). And instead of failure, the best album of 1981. Everyone loves it. And it's only because of me controlling Peter totally & precisely. Everything. He can't say no to me.

:)
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Re: What If Eric Carr Was the Original Drummer

Post by Grand Classic »

jkiss wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 10:13 pm
41Mets wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:19 pm
steve wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 6:35 pm
41Mets wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 4:52 pmEric writing some sort of a major hit does not seem to have much of basis to grow even a fantasy scenario from.
Peter didn't write any hits either. Or, come to that, any songs at all. What he did was attach his name to songs written by Stan Penridge and, in the case of Beth, significantly reworked by Bob Ezrin.

Eric could write songs, play several instruments besides the drums and sing very well. Had he been in KISS from day one and treated as a founding member rather than a hired gun, the dynamic between himself and the others, Paul in particular, would have turned out very differently and given Eric ample opportunity to use his talents.
Peter did not have to write Beth to make it happen. Without him, it does not happen. He is the one who brought it to the band, which is the most important initial element. Ezrin reworked the lyrics with inclusions from Peter's actual personal life. And Peter was the one who performed it and put the perfect touches on it vocally for those who enjoyed it. I did not even mention the fact he came up with the melody. But it's essential that the song never finds its way to Kiss without him, and Ezrin cultivated the song around him. Whether he was a good writer or not is not the point, he is the central and essential player in that song's role.

As for who sings better, that is a matter of personal preference, but Eric's impact would not have been much different there. As for what his songwriting talents were, I believe if they were really strong Paul and Gene or others would have recognized it at some point and simply had to let somehting happen there. But there was nothing there to suggest he could come up with something that had the potential to be any sort of hit. I am not knocking him, because Frehley never wrote a major hit either, and neither did Gene if you consider that RARAN was not quite a chart-topping hit initially. It has been extremely difficult for anyone in Kiss to deliver a chart-buster, and there is absolutely nothing to suggest that Eric had such potential.

The success of Beth was about much more than just who wrote it.
You almost wonder what Bob could've done with Peter? They should've worked together when Peter first went solo ...maybe a whole different world for Peter had they scored a few more hits as at least as good as "Beth". Imagine Peter being bigger than KISS in 1981.

:scratch:

I had a little fantasy that it was I that took over the control of Peter's solo career (in the beginning - 1980). And instead of failure, the best album of 1981. Everyone loves it. And it's only because of me controlling Peter totally & precisely. Everything. He can't say no to me.

:)
What would you do specifically in controlling Peter? Would it be more of a hard rock record?
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