What If Eric Carr Was the Original Drummer

[Ace of Bass]

Allow yourself to slip into the world of the hypothetical.

Would KISS have taken an even heavier direction, or maybe been more Zeppelinesque? A more straight ahead rock beat versus the rock/jazz/big band fusion of the OG Catman.

Imagine the different dynamic at work, given he’d have had an equal interest as a partner in the band rather than being an employee.

Imagine that solo album (see all the Eric demos out there plus the “Remembering...” thread recently posted by Admin.

Is all of this moot since no Beth = no KISS, regardless of how different 1973-1976 might have been?

[DubaiRockCity]

Totally different chemistry. We would have never heard of them. Peter was the most experienced musician out of the original four.

[Mr Slow]

Totally different chemistry. We would have never heard of them. Peter was the most experienced musician out of the original four.

So you think with the gimmick, the live shows and the songs they wrote they wouldn’t have made it without Peter?

[Mr Slow]

Allow yourself to slip into the world of the hypothetical.

Would KISS have taken an even heavier direction, or maybe been more Zeppelinesque? A more straight ahead rock beat versus the rock/jazz/big band fusion of the OG Catman.

Imagine the different dynamic at work, given he’d have had an equal interest as a partner in the band rather than being an employee.

Imagine that solo album (see all the Eric demos out there plus the “Remembering...” thread recently posted by Admin.

Is all of this moot since no Beth = no KISS, regardless of how different 1973-1976 might have been?

I know how important Beth was to the whole thing, but I refuse to believe they would have been doomed if that had not become a big hit. It’s selling the entire band, the next few albums and subsequent tours very short to suggest that it would have been all over if Beth hadn’t reignited things. I think mega stardom was inevitable.

[Tito]

Totally different chemistry. We would have never heard of them. Peter was the most experienced musician out of the original four.

So Peter's experience was what made them. OK.

[In the Suds]

They wouldn't have been as good. The unique chemistry of the original four is what made them special. All four were essential.

[Grand Classic]

They wouldn't have been as good. The unique chemistry of the original four is what made them special. All four were essential.

Yep. Take away Peter and their entire history changes. Maybe they never meet Aucoin.

I realize this is hypothetical, but too many people seem to think that KISS would have made it no matter what - no matter how much you change the ingredients and that couldn't be more wrong.

[Tito]

You're assuming they wouldn't have made it. It's just as good a guess to say maybe they would have been even bigger. Like the big boys.

[steve]

KISStory would have turned out exactly as I wish it had.

[Grand Classic]

You're assuming they wouldn't have made it. It's just as good a guess to say maybe they would have been even bigger. Like the big boys.

No, they wouldn't have been. Any other label would have dropped them after the first couple of albums and certainly wouldn't have put money into a double live album.

Things had to go the way they did with Aucoin and then Bogart, etc. Change one thing and then everything changes. Haven't you seen Back To The Future?

[Grand Classic]

KISStory would have turned out exactly as I wish it had.

They would have been done before you were born.

[steve]

They would have been done before you were born.

Why? Eric was perfectly capable of writing and singing great songs. Being there from day one as an original member would have assuaged the insecurities that plagued him through the 80s and given him freedom and confidence to contribute a lot more than he did. Who's to say a different version of the band might not have turned out better?

[L1]

Well obviously no one knows, but I really doubt that this would have turned out as such a great band that it was. They had such special chemestry and balance in the band, plus Peter was a pretty unique musical asset (as was the other original three).

[stutterer]

They'd be a soul band right from the start. Cos Peter held Paul back by being hooked on rock'n'roll.

[Tito]

They would have had electronic drum pads from the start.

[DeKiLaLoMa]

Plus, their drummer wouldn't have died so close to Freddie Mercury, hopefully giving him a little more news space.

[domino65]

OMG..... Kiss would have never been KISS.
Yesterday I was watching Detroit 76 and Houston 77, man the main force in the Kiss heydays was definitely Peter!

[Bruce]

As the original drummer, Eric Carr would have done wonders

[Going Blind]

Allow yourself to slip into the world of the hypothetical.

Would KISS have taken an even heavier direction, or maybe been more Zeppelinesque? A more straight ahead rock beat versus the rock/jazz/big band fusion of the OG Catman.

Imagine the different dynamic at work, given he’d have had an equal interest as a partner in the band rather than being an employee.

Imagine that solo album (see all the Eric demos out there plus the “Remembering...” thread recently posted by Admin.

Is all of this moot since no Beth = no KISS, regardless of how different 1973-1976 might have been?

I know how important Beth was to the whole thing, but I refuse to believe they would have been doomed if that had not become a big hit. It’s selling the entire band, the next few albums and subsequent tours very short to suggest that it would have been all over if Beth hadn’t reignited things. I think mega stardom was inevitable.

But think about how strange it is. They put out 3 albums that went nowhere, then put out a live album of the same material from those 3 albums that is a huge success. Then Destroyer comes out and flails. Beth hits and they become huge. I can't figure out why Alive was so huge and then nothing. My only guess is that Alive was a cheaper way to get most of the first 3 albums and it had very cool packaging and great cover art. They have a run for 3 more albums and the band finds themselves flailing again. Doesn't seem like Kiss was quite as successful as we are lead to believe. A very good run from 76-79. Ballsy enough to do a double album comp when most bands wait five to ten years to do a single album comp.

[curryleaf]

Context is everything.

For Kiss to become as big as they did, when they did, a lot of it relied on the kid-friendly image of Peter. In his heyday, he was a great drummer and perfect for the band in that era. Much as I like Eric Carr, Peter also had a much stronger personality. And although Peter is my least favourite member of the original line-up, I think people forget just how popular he was from 76 to 80.

Plus, of course, Eric's style of drumming didn't really exist in 1973 and so, again, it's not really possible to envisage him being part of anything at that time.

[Ace of Bass]

KISStory would have turned out exactly as I wish it had.

I actually though about titling this thread: Steve’s Wet Dream Come True.

Lots of intriguing possibilities, some great, some not so great.

[steve]

I actually though about titling this thread: Steve’s Wet Dream Come True.

I'm not sure how Eva Green and Rachel Weisz turning up naked on my doorstep has any relevance to a discussion about Eric Carr, but thanks for the name check.

'A cash machine at this time of night? Not likely, but I'm sure we can reach some kind of arrangement. Do come in.'

[Hi I'm Witz]

No Peter = no Beth. Therefore no mainstream popularity. Therefore no longevity.

[domino65]

No Peter = no Beth. Therefore no mainstream popularity. Therefore no longevity.

No Hotter Than Hell unique and awesome drums fills, No She, No Strutter, No Parasite, No Strange Ways, No KOTNTW, NO Makin Love.... c'mon guys the way Peter used to play those tunes is outstanding and his footprint is everywhere in Kiss catalogue from 75 to 79!

[Grand Classic]

No Peter = no Beth. Therefore no mainstream popularity. Therefore no longevity.

No Peter = No Rock And Roll Nite either.

Change Peter and their whole daily path changes. They don't meet Aucoin and thus don't meet Bogart - who told them they needed a rock and roll anthem on the album he produced.

[Grand Classic]

They would have been done before you were born.

Why? Eric was perfectly capable of writing and singing great songs. Being there from day one as an original member would have assuaged the insecurities that plagued him through the 80s and given him freedom and confidence to contribute a lot more than he did. Who's to say a different version of the band might not have turned out better?

They wouldn't have made it past 1976.

[kenn.ace]

They wouldn't have been as good. The unique chemistry of the original four is what made them special. All four were essential.

I agree

[Fartbone]

KISStory would have turned out exactly as I wish it had.

Forever an opening act for BOC?

[Andy Capp]

No Peter = no Beth. Therefore no mainstream popularity. Therefore no longevity.

No Hotter Than Hell unique and awesome drums fills, No She, No Strutter, No Parasite, No Strange Ways, No KOTNTW, NO Makin Love.... c'mon guys the way Peter used to play those tunes is outstanding and his footprint is everywhere in Kiss catalogue from 75 to 79!

old Andy fully agrees---- and he says he loves Eric Carr‘ and misses him too.... 29 years ago today

forever Rest in Peace----

[jkiss]

Allow yourself to slip into the world of the hypothetical.

Would KISS have taken an even heavier direction, or maybe been more Zeppelinesque? A more straight ahead rock beat versus the rock/jazz/big band fusion of the OG Catman.

Imagine the different dynamic at work, given he’d have had an equal interest as a partner in the band rather than being an employee.

Imagine that solo album (see all the Eric demos out there plus the “Remembering...” thread recently posted by Admin.

Is all of this moot since no Beth = no KISS, regardless of how different 1973-1976 might have been?

I actually don't think Eric would've joined them back in 1972 (had he auditioned, etc.) ...he probably would've said, "Forget it you weirdos!"

[jkiss]

Totally different chemistry. We would have never heard of them. Peter was the most experienced musician out of the original four.

So you think with the gimmick, the live shows and the songs they wrote they wouldn’t have made it without Peter?

I believe they needed someone that would've dressed-up like that & stuck to it regardless of all the heckling. And I do figure there was a lot more of that (boo-hiss!) early-on than we'll all ever know about.

I almost think it was more important to Paul & Gene they find someone that would even agree (or be very open to) to being so incredibly bizarre visually, consistently. And not only that, actually believe it was going to work at some point. Even Peter would gripe a bit about the fact he was dressing-up like a clown to make it & would continue do so after he did all-the-while still a member of KISS.

[jkiss]

They wouldn't have been as good. The unique chemistry of the original four is what made them special. All four were essential.

Yes, birds of a feather flock together ...all the total weirdos 'necessary' all found each other (I'm including Bill, Sean, Neil, Joyce, etc.) ...the planets of the universe aligned.

[Wiped Out 78]

I believe they needed someone that would've dressed-up like that & stuck to it regardless of all the heckling. And I do figure there was a lot more of that (boo-hiss!) early-on than we'll all ever know about.

This was always my problem with the idea of Bob Kulick in the band.

Bob wasn't all that into the original concept of the band. How long before he would've bailed for a more "serious" gig?

[Ace of Bass]

They wouldn't have been as good. The unique chemistry of the original four is what made them special. All four were essential.

Yes, birds of a feather flock together ...all the total weirdos 'necessary' all found each other (I'm including Bill, Sean, Neil, Joyce, etc.) ...the planets of the universe aligned.

Ain’t that the truth.

[steve]

They wouldn't have made it past 1976.

Again, why? The appeal to bored housewives of an AM radio ballad that was mostly the work of two other people? Eric could have written something much better if he were there at the time and only needed help with the lyrics.

[Grand Classic]

They wouldn't have made it past 1976.

Again, why? The appeal to bored housewives of an AM radio ballad that was mostly the work of two other people? Eric could have written something much better if he were there at the time and only needed help with the lyrics.

While I do think Eyes Of Love should have been on HITS - the Rockology album gave no indication that he was a hit maker that Paul and Gene were suppressing.

I don't think KISS would have lasted much longer without Beth anyway. Casablanca needed KISS to pay off with hit songs and albums. If there was no Beth, you might have been saved from ever hearing Hard Luck Woman on Rock And Roll Over.

[steve]

. If there was no Beth, you might have been saved from ever hearing Hard Luck Woman on Rock And Roll Over.

Or from ever hearing the rest of Rock And Roll Over. Everything has a bright side.

[Grand Classic]

. If there was no Beth, you might have been saved from ever hearing Hard Luck Woman on Rock And Roll Over.

Or from ever hearing the rest of Rock And Roll Over. Everything has a bright side.

While I certainly think Rock And Roll Over is vastly overrated among KISS fans, I find it difficult to comprehend how albums with Uh All Night, Read My Body, Bang Bang You and so much other dreck on those 80's albums are better? I will give you The Elder, Creatures and LIU though.

[WinnieWincent]

Kiss could've used someone a little more abrasive like Eric back then.

[domino65]

No Peter = no Beth. Therefore no mainstream popularity. Therefore no longevity.

No Hotter Than Hell unique and awesome drums fills, No She, No Strutter, No Parasite, No Strange Ways, No KOTNTW, NO Makin Love.... c'mon guys the way Peter used to play those tunes is outstanding and his footprint is everywhere in Kiss catalogue from 75 to 79!

old Andy fully agrees---- and he says he loves Eric Carr‘ and misses him too.... 29 years ago today

forever Rest in Peace----

absolutely!

[Phyllis Simmons]

Interesting question. I think they still would have more than made it. Assuming Eric was good enough at age 22/23. Eric had that raspy Peter type voice and could have still been the 3rd or 4th voice in KISS. They still would have had the image; the concept, the great batch of early Gene and Paul songs; a couple from Ace, and the great frontline of G,P & A..

However do we know that Eric was the developed drummer at 22 in '72, that he was at 30 in '80?? Are we assuming that he was? I'd say he probably wasn't near as good at 22 as he was at 30. Are there early enough recordings from then that we can really tell?

[Mr Slow]

I know we all love Peter’s unique drumming style but do we think KISS would not have exploded with ALIVE if it was someone else on there? Was Peter’s style the thing that made KISS huge or was it the sum of all parts, lead by a great gimmick and a rockin’ batch of songs?

I believe any one of them could have been replaced and the band still breaks through. To suggest it had to be all 4 of them is naive in my opinion. As much as Paul wrote some great tunes and Ace’s style was an absolute blessing, there were loads of other great musicians out there that could have been just as good. You might lose some of the uniqueness of it if Bob Kulick got the gig instead of Ace, but if we never heard Ace play we wouldn’t know what we were missing.

Gene is the hardest to replace as he brought the biggest personality to it and it was his arrogance and self belief, not to mention the character he created, that drew in the most people initially. The other 3 guys were just guys in weird clothes and face paint. They weren’t far away from what Slade, Wizzard or even Bowie was doing at the time. But Gene was the one who captured the attention the most. He was scary and dangerous and added credibility to something that could easily have been dismissed as silly.

[Choose_One]

Although I liked Carr as a replacement initially (with the make up), I didn't like his drumming once the make up came off.

Peter was such a key cog in their sound (watch the Detroit '76 show if you doubt how good he was at that time), and of course his great voice. Black Diamond, Nothin' To Lose, Strange Ways, Beth, Hard Luck Woman, Dirty Livin'. All great.

[Phyllis Simmons]

I know we all love Peter’s unique drumming style but do we think KISS would not have exploded with ALIVE if it was someone else on there? Was Peter’s style the thing that made KISS huge or was it the sum of all parts, lead by a great gimmick and a rockin’ batch of songs?

I believe any one of them could have been replaced and the band still breaks through. To suggest it had to be all 4 of them is naive in my opinion. As much as Paul wrote some great tunes and Ace’s style was an absolute blessing, there were loads of other great musicians out there that could have been just as good. You might lose some of the uniqueness of it if Bob Kulick got the gig instead of Ace, but if we never heard Ace play we wouldn’t know what we were missing.

Gene is the hardest to replace as he brought the biggest personality to it and it was his arrogance and self belief, not to mention the character he created, that drew in the most people initially. The other 3 guys were just guys in weird clothes and face paint. They weren’t far away from what Slade, Wizzard or even Bowie was doing at the time. But Gene was the one who captured the attention the most. He was scary and dangerous and added credibility to something that could easily have been dismissed as silly.

I agree with your take on Gene; but Paul equally as important so IMO. He really is the heart and soul. You look all through the NY area scene in '73; and you aint finding a guy that touches him. Voice, songwriting, charisma, stage presence, etc etc. You wouldnt find someone close to Paul (unknown that is) not close. Gene up there with a weaker - less convincing frontman and it aint working. Not a chance.
Take Ace out and its very hard to imagine them getting someone as good as him too at the time.
It really was the sum of the parts.

I love Peter; its my favourite version; but the hypothetical was could they have still done what they did with Eric C being the original back in '73? And my answer was probably yes; assuming Eric was already about as good in '73 as he was in '80. And we dont know for sure that he was.. He was likely still a work in progress...

[mojavebassman]

No tongue drum?

[Frehley's Vomit]

Eric was perfectly capable of writing and singing great songs.

I'm not sure he ever did that. Rockology was very average at best.

[Ace of Bass]

. If there was no Beth, you might have been saved from ever hearing Hard Luck Woman on Rock And Roll Over.

Or from ever hearing the rest of Rock And Roll Over. Everything has a bright side.

Don’t take Calling Dr. Love away from me.

[41Mets]

You change any one member and you likely change the full trajectory of history. Way too many elements involved to make it a sure thing, Beth saved Destroyer because the band gained much more national attention and appearances like the Paul Lynde Special. It may have not been a song in their true vein, but it boosted airplay, album sales, etc. and thus made the band more visible to where they got a major boost in recognition and fan discovery. The album was pushed to the front of record store displays and found its way into so many more homes. Without Peter that does not happen. Gene and Paul were simply not replacable. Frehley helped give them a sound that appealed to what would become their core fanbase. Gene and Paul wanted a drummer who was capable of being a frontman type from behind the kit and that is why they brought Peter into the fold.

My guess is they would have hung around with a big cult following but would have never been superstars on the level they were. They would have ultimately been written off in the big picture as a novelty and never made the Rock Hall or lasted this long. The four faces would have never become iconic as they are now. We are all just having fun speculating here, so there is no right answer. But we do know that Peter was a very important cog in the original machine and his part in their success will only be denied or diminished by those who dislike him and are not being truly objective about it. Gene and Paul continue to admit that without the four originals, they would not be here now. That's a very impactful and true statement. Those in the band's inner circle always credited the success of Beth to being a major turning point at a critical time. You can dispute how much Peter wrote of it, but not the fact that he brought it to the band, and performed it. The lyrics also contain direct references to his personal life (you say you feel so empty, our house just ain't a home, is directly from phone conversations with him and Lydia). Beth is a total Peter Criss vehicle. Without him, Beth never exists and we fall into complete unpredictability after Alive!

Carr was perfect for the post-classic era. I started to think about another scenario where Kiss started in the 80s, but then thought they sould have had no shot at being on the radar without what they did in the 70s. They don't get on MTV if someone doesn't call in a favor or if they don't have a storied past by that point.

[Grand Classic]

I know we all love Peter’s unique drumming style but do we think KISS would not have exploded with ALIVE if it was someone else on there? Was Peter’s style the thing that made KISS huge or was it the sum of all parts, lead by a great gimmick and a rockin’ batch of songs?

I believe any one of them could have been replaced and the band still breaks through. To suggest it had to be all 4 of them is naive in my opinion. As much as Paul wrote some great tunes and Ace’s style was an absolute blessing, there were loads of other great musicians out there that could have been just as good. You might lose some of the uniqueness of it if Bob Kulick got the gig instead of Ace, but if we never heard Ace play we wouldn’t know what we were missing.

Gene is the hardest to replace as he brought the biggest personality to it and it was his arrogance and self belief, not to mention the character he created, that drew in the most people initially. The other 3 guys were just guys in weird clothes and face paint. They weren’t far away from what Slade, Wizzard or even Bowie was doing at the time. But Gene was the one who captured the attention the most. He was scary and dangerous and added credibility to something that could easily have been dismissed as silly.

They wouldn't have made it to Alive!, if anything changed from what it was.

[Grand Classic]

It amazes me how delusional some people are in thinking that KISS would have made it no matter what.

I mean just missing a train in daily life and that important meeting or interview that would have changed your life puts you on a completely different life path now.

We all know what it is like for our alarm clock to not go off and we are freaking out trying to get to work, because we know now that the rest of the day is going to be fucked and you might have to stay late now. Something as simple as that, changes your day to day.

If it wasn't those particular 4 members, their entire day to day life and history would have changed - thus probably not meeting Aucoin, who hooked them up with Bogart, etc.

I hate to wake people from their slumber, but the songs were not that strong where there might be a bidding war on the band from numerous labels.