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metalfuel wrote: ↑Wed Nov 25, 2020 6:10 am
28 votes for VV so far.
Explain that.
Pretty simple one to explain - it's a Kiss board, and there are probably some out there whose fandom lacks a certain degree of objectivity regardless of how ludicrous the question posed is...I'm sure if someone put up a poll as to what the greatest work of philosophy was and gave a straight choice between Plato's Republic and Paul Stanley's Backstage Pass, Paul would probably win because he's in Kiss and Plato wasn't.
Even on a Kiss board though the EVH/Vinnie one's still turned out to be a 90/10 split...on any other platform if the same question was asked it would be as close to unanimous as not to matter.
metalfuel wrote: ↑Wed Nov 25, 2020 6:10 am
28 votes for VV so far.
Explain that.
Pretty simple one to explain - it's a Kiss board, and there are probably some out there whose fandom lacks a certain degree of objectivity regardless of how ludicrous the question posed is...I'm sure if someone put up a poll as to what the greatest work of philosophy was and gave a straight choice between Plato's Republic and Paul Stanley's Backstage Pass, Paul would probably win because he's in Kiss and Plato wasn't.
Even on a Kiss board though the EVH/Vinnie one's still turned out to be a 90/10 split...on any other platform if the same question was asked it would be as close to unanimous as not to matter.
The question is very vague. I voted VV...partially because it's funny seeing people get their panties in a twist over it, and two, if the question is who do you prefer, or more specifically, whose songwriting do you prefer, I would honestly vote VV because I don't particularly care for VH. They're okay, but just okay. I don't ever intentionally listen to them. Now if the question is guitar playing (or just about any other guitar related question that's not songwriting,) I'd say it's easily EVH. I'm not a Vinnie disciple. TBH, I don't particularly care for VV's guitar wanking when someone doesn't have a leash on him. Hell, even when they do it's not always enjoyable...for example, Vinnie's solos for classic KISS songs.
I didn't vote in the Gene or Peter threads, though... Interestingly, nobody seems to be freaking out over the fact the KISS guys are actually leading those. Dunno if that's because they were started as mock threads or because half the people don't know who the other players are? I don't know who the drummer is...
While Eddie had a lot more impact on guitar players and reached another level of popularity in the main public, I find Vincent to be a much more interesting guitar player. He masters a variety of styles (as proven by his work with different artists) and is a great composer, arranger and performer. I wouldn't be surprised if he plays several other instruments as well.
I think his guitarwork on his albums are well thought out, and pretty original.
Musicianship however isn't a contest, so this is just my subjective opinion.
Lickitsideways wrote: ↑Wed Nov 25, 2020 8:57 am
While Eddie had a lot more impact on guitar players and reached another level of popularity in the main public, I find Vincent to be a much more interesting guitar player. He masters a variety of styles (as proven by his work with different artists) and is a great composer, arranger and performer. I wouldn't be surprised if he plays several other instruments as well.
I think his guitarwork on his albums are well thought out, and pretty original.
Musicianship however isn't a contest, so this is just my subjective opinion.
Vinnie only has one style, "Bumblebee". He just shits out notes super fast with no rhyme or reason. IMHO that's not skill.
Eddie Van Halen blows Vinnie clear out of the water.
Fartbone wrote: ↑Wed Nov 25, 2020 8:34 am
Kiss fans are funny when they still are in childhood awe.
I love my memories but fuck, fact is fact. Many here are beyond comical.
What is wrong with still having childhood awe about something? Especially in these days where joy is a lot harder to find.
Apparently it doesn't work this way for you, but for some of us music connects us to a time in our lives that was good. So when we listen to KISS or watch that movie from the 1970s, or smell something that reminds us of what mom used to make, it brings back more than memories, but the feelings we had back then too, before we became jaded by life.
I highly doubt I'd be a KISS fan now if I discovered them in my 50s. I typically find joy in more mature, sophisticated pursuits these days, but KISS reminds me of a time when I listened to music just for fun. Maybe it does bring out the more youthful version of me and reminds me not to take myself OR OTHERS so seriously.
Lickitsideways wrote: ↑Wed Nov 25, 2020 8:57 am
While Eddie had a lot more impact on guitar players and reached another level of popularity in the main public, I find Vincent to be a much more interesting guitar player. He masters a variety of styles (as proven by his work with different artists) and is a great composer, arranger and performer. I wouldn't be surprised if he plays several other instruments as well.
I think his guitarwork on his albums are well thought out, and pretty original.
Musicianship however isn't a contest, so this is just my subjective opinion.
Vinnie only has one style, "Bumblebee". He just shits out notes super fast with no rhyme or reason. IMHO that's not skill.
Eddie Van Halen blows Vinnie clear out of the water.
Exactly! While Eddie was super fast, he was also melodic and soulful.
battra wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 9:06 am
I said it was the better than any song Kiss did since Love Gun? I know I think it's the best Kiss song in years, but since Love Gun? I'm gonna need the receipts on that one.
He could be a better guitarist and songwriter if he chose to mask his ability all this time.
That's the only logical conclusion at this point.
You did say that. It's a poll.
I see you didn't produce any receipts on this.
As I don't think I've ever thought that and I have no recollection of ever saying that, I'm going to have to assume, like many others before you, that you don't remember something correctly.
Let's get real for a second here. Look, if you're a Kiss fan, you know who you should be Votin' for. And I'm not about to be forcin' your Vote. But still.
stutterer wrote: ↑Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:58 pm
Let's get real for a second here. Look, if you're a Kiss fan, you know who you should be Votin' for. And I'm not about to be forcin' your Vote. But still.
I'm a Kiss fan who's got a passing fancy with Van Halen.
Vinnie Vincent has 3.5 LPs of material in the past 50 years.
Nothing on those comes close to what Eddie did on his first LP.
Curveboy wrote: ↑Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:39 pm
PS - Vinnie had a knack for writing great songs...Eddie, not so much.
I'll give you those Kiss albums he was on were damned good.
However, his solo career was basically abysmal junk.
So, it's hard to say Vinnie had a knack for writing great songs from where I'm sitting.
However, what made Van Halen great wasn't the lyrics, kind of like Kiss, unless you think lines like "fits like a glove," "live like you're on vacation," and "turn it up" are poetry.
But if Eddie wasn't writing those songs...who was writing his parts?
PS : the world has been mourning EVH since he died six weeks ago. They had something like nine out of the top ten songs on iTunes that week. A tribute song his son did went to #1 on iTunes and has had three million YouTube views in a week.
Even back in the day when Vinnie was in the band, I don’t recall him being a “shredder”. I still don’t think he was. He was fast and had a manic style of playing, but I don’t think he has ever been considered in the same league as Steve Vai, Satriani, Yngwie, Paul Gilbert, etc. Those guys were “shredders”. While in Kiss, I always thought his greatest asset was his songwriting. I do like many of his solos on Kiss records because they restrained him. He definitely wasn’t thought of as some new guitar hero that was going to change guitar playing. He butchered the original era songs or at least the solos. When he started his solo career, it seems the focus was him trying to be a guitar hero. He’s rarely if ever considered in the same league as some of the aforementioned players. I don’t consider Eddie a shredder either. He could have been, but his rhythm playing and melodic songs are just as important as the tapping and flashy solos. Not to mention how he changed the guitar world. Vinnie isn’t even on these lists of the best guitarist. The only “shredder” that I have seen tout Vinnie as an influence is John 5. We know that John is a major Kiss and VH fan too. So, there’s that.
strutter78 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 4:20 am
Vinnie isn’t even on these lists of the best guitarist. The only “shredder” that I have seen tout Vinnie as an influence is John 5. We know that John is a major Kiss and VH fan too. So, there’s that.
And John 5 blows Vinnie clear out of the water as well.
stutterer wrote: ↑Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:58 pm
Let's get real for a second here. Look, if you're a Kiss fan, you know who you should be Votin' for. And I'm not about to be forcin' your Vote. But still.
I'm a Kiss fan who's got a passing fancy with Van Halen.
Vinnie Vincent has 3.5 LPs of material in the past 50 years.
Nothing on those comes close to what Eddie did on his first LP.
I voted Van Halen.
Eddie has publicly played more since he died than Vinnie has in 40 years. Game, set, match. Vinnie could do himself a big favor by posting some performance videos, rather than being the living embodiment of rumor and innuendo.
Planet Caravan wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 6:56 am
And Vinnie appears to have a defective personality/mental illness issues which have held him back also.
Several of his most loyal fans appear to have the same affliction.
I voted for Eddie, obvs, but I think Vinnie is exceptional. His work on COTN and LIU is fantastic and his live solos on the old material were well-crafted, engaging, and most importantly for a replacement member, in his own unique voice.
I was really sad to see him leave KISS and the impact of his departure seeped into the anodyne, subpar grooves of the albums from Animalize to HITS.
I was blown away by the first VVI album; great songs and great lead guitar work, but being one for detail I lent the disc to a virtuoso guitarist I was working with and asked him for his verdict on Vinnie’s capabilities: I mean Vinnie sounded great to me, but was he just tossing off notes?
After a week the verdict came back, “If he’s doing that on purpose, he’s a genius.” All of which made me love Vinnie even more. It’s such a shame that he has taken our fond memories of him and flushed them down the toilet, but in the 80s Vinnie was very special indeed. No Eddie Van Halen, but very special nonetheless.
UltraCynic wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 3:49 pm
I voted for Eddie, obvs, but I think Vinnie is exceptional. His work on COTN and LIU is fantastic and his live solos on the old material were well-crafted, engaging, and most importantly for a replacement member, in his own unique voice.
I was really sad to see him leave KISS and the impact of his departure seeped into the anodyne, subpar grooves of the albums from Animalize to HITS.
I was blown away by the first VVI album; great songs and great lead guitar work, but being one for detail I lent the disc to a virtuoso guitarist I was working with and asked him for his verdict on Vinnie’s capabilities: I mean Vinnie sounded great to me, but was he just tossing off notes?
After a week the verdict came back, “If he’s doing that on purpose, he’s a genius.” All of which made me love Vinnie even more. It’s such a shame that he has taken our fond memories of him and flushed them down the toilet, but in the 80s Vinnie was very special indeed. No Eddie Van Halen, but very special nonetheless.
Well put. Vinnie is so divisive, some say he butchered the old songs live, or that he is the ultimate saviour of everything. I pretty much agree with the assessment here.
I loved Vinnie stuff with KISS and I wish he stayed on at least as a songwriter instead of Desmond Child, but I do not get people who think the VVI albums were well written.
They were a pretty much a mess across the board. If any hard rock guitarist in the 80's needed to be told that less is more, it was Vinnie when it came to his own band. It also doesn't help that the vocals on both albums are awful.
Why would anyone want Mark Slaughter in their band?
I'd like to throw out there that Edward's solos on those Gene Vault demos were pretty rad... I don't see him not fitting into KISS, especially in the 80's. As a guitar player, VV is a fucking wanker. He wrote some cool riffs, but i see him as an atrocious lead player. His technique was wonky & he lacked soul. No emotion in his playing whatsoever. Boring. Edward's solos blow minds repeatedly & he wrote even BETTER riffs. This is just an insane thread.
UltraCynic wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 3:49 pm
I voted for Eddie, obvs, but I think Vinnie is exceptional. His work on COTN and LIU is fantastic and his live solos on the old material were well-crafted, engaging, and most importantly for a replacement member, in his own unique voice.
I was really sad to see him leave KISS and the impact of his departure seeped into the anodyne, subpar grooves of the albums from Animalize to HITS.
I was blown away by the first VVI album; great songs and great lead guitar work, but being one for detail I lent the disc to a virtuoso guitarist I was working with and asked him for his verdict on Vinnie’s capabilities: I mean Vinnie sounded great to me, but was he just tossing off notes?
After a week the verdict came back, “If he’s doing that on purpose, he’s a genius.” All of which made me love Vinnie even more. It’s such a shame that he has taken our fond memories of him and flushed them down the toilet, but in the 80s Vinnie was very special indeed. No Eddie Van Halen, but very special nonetheless.
Well put. Vinnie is so divisive, some say he butchered the old songs live, or that he is the ultimate saviour of everything. I pretty much agree with the assessment here.
strutter78 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 4:20 am
Vinnie isn’t even on these lists of the best guitarist. The only “shredder” that I have seen tout Vinnie as an influence is John 5. We know that John is a major Kiss and VH fan too. So, there’s that.
And John 5 blows Vinnie clear out of the water as well.
Without question. I never thought about it until now, but John 5 may have been a great replacement for Ace or later with Tommy. I could see him creating his own character and blowing minds with his playing. And he’s a mega fan. I could see him totally being into it especially when he was “just” John Lowery from Michigan. I saw him live a few years ago and he was phenomenal on many levels. Entertaining and a fantastic player with a band that was TIGHT!
UltraCynic wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 3:49 pm
I voted for Eddie, obvs, but I think Vinnie is exceptional. His work on COTN and LIU is fantastic and his live solos on the old material were well-crafted, engaging, and most importantly for a replacement member, in his own unique voice.
I was really sad to see him leave KISS and the impact of his departure seeped into the anodyne, subpar grooves of the albums from Animalize to HITS.
I was blown away by the first VVI album; great songs and great lead guitar work, but being one for detail I lent the disc to a virtuoso guitarist I was working with and asked him for his verdict on Vinnie’s capabilities: I mean Vinnie sounded great to me, but was he just tossing off notes?
After a week the verdict came back, “If he’s doing that on purpose, he’s a genius.” All of which made me love Vinnie even more. It’s such a shame that he has taken our fond memories of him and flushed them down the toilet, but in the 80s Vinnie was very special indeed. No Eddie Van Halen, but very special nonetheless.
I voted for Vinnie obviously. And I'd much rather listen to CREATURES, LICK IT UP, INVASION, ALL SYSTEMS GO, EUPHORIA, THE EP, GUITARMAGEDDON, Warrior II etc than Van Halen albums.
Grand Classic wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 10:59 pm
Why would anyone want Mark Slaughter in their band?
Vinnie didn't want Mark in the band.
Oh that's right. Isn't the story that the label didn't think Robert fit the mold of a hair metal singer visually and they chose Slaughter?
"What happened was I tried to keep Rob in the band, because I said, 'There is no fucking way — no way, no way — this other guy, who can't sing, who's reduced my music to the level of worse than a local bar band is gonna be in my creation. There's no way,'" Vincent recalled. "Once this no-talent individual came into the picture, everything went 'Boom!' It was just like dropping a lead weight," he added. "And I saw that happen and I thought, 'This is a sin.' Everything that could have been was instantly over. So we recorded the 'Boyz Are Gonna Rock' video with a faker; it was like fake news — trying to make you believe something that… this is not what this is. So one thing led to another, to another, got worse and worse. I did the second record, and I had all these great songs that I said should sound like the first record, only this is the second record. It follows the same everything — the same sound, the same passion, the same intensity, the same power, and it was not there."
Personally, I don't like either of their voices. As for Slaughter, I wasn't a fan but I'd rather listen to them than Vinnie Vincent's rubbish music. They did have a good lead guitarist in Tim Kelly and a couple of good songs. Vocals aside, Mark Slaughter also appears to be a pretty decent bloke, while Vinnie is a thieving scumbag and a total douche.
Grand Classic wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 10:59 pm
Why would anyone want Mark Slaughter in their band?
Vinnie didn't want Mark in the band.
Oh that's right. Isn't the story that the label didn't think Robert fit the mold of a hair metal singer visually and they chose Slaughter?
"What happened was I tried to keep Rob in the band, because I said, 'There is no fucking way — no way, no way — this other guy, who can't sing, who's reduced my music to the level of worse than a local bar band is gonna be in my creation. There's no way,'" Vincent recalled. "Once this no-talent individual came into the picture, everything went 'Boom!' It was just like dropping a lead weight," he added. "And I saw that happen and I thought, 'This is a sin.' Everything that could have been was instantly over. So we recorded the 'Boyz Are Gonna Rock' video with a faker; it was like fake news — trying to make you believe something that… this is not what this is. So one thing led to another, to another, got worse and worse. I did the second record, and I had all these great songs that I said should sound like the first record, only this is the second record. It follows the same everything — the same sound, the same passion, the same intensity, the same power, and it was not there."
Personally, I don't like either of their voices. As for Slaughter, I wasn't a fan but I'd rather listen to them than Vinnie Vincent's rubbish music. They did have a good lead guitarist in Tim Kelly and a couple of good songs. Vocals aside, Mark Slaughter also appears to be a pretty decent bloke, while Vinnie is a thieving scumbag and a total douche.
I love this song with Fleischman.
I can't disagree with Vinnie's view, but I find it odd that the label were making such demands. I mean didn't they view him as a supposed star given the record deal, so why wouldn't they control who is in the band?
Yes, I will give you that - Slaughter was much better than VVI. I probably would have liked them more with a different singer if the songs/music were the same, but obviously I know Slaughter wrote the songs with Strum.
Grand Classic wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 10:59 pm
Why would anyone want Mark Slaughter in their band?
Vinnie didn't want Mark in the band.
Oh that's right. Isn't the story that the label didn't think Robert fit the mold of a hair metal singer visually and they chose Slaughter?
No, it was that Sewitt had lied to the label and told them Robert was signed.
Then after the record was done and in the can....photos taken etc..... The label is asking to see the contract Robert signed and its not there.
They try and pressure Robert to sign. He didn't like the deal (and he really didn't want to tour at all). Vinnie wants Gorham Dana and Sewitt push Mark. Vinnie thought Mark was too young, immature and his voice wasn't good enough.
Of course a few years later....Goran would be signing BACK ON THE STREETS with John Norum.
You might be more delusional than Vinnie himself.
