Ace confirms Bob Ezrin broke up the band

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Re: Ace confirms Bob Ezrin broke up the band

Post by AnthonyTyler »

Um. No.

Bob Ezrin was working with a group of young men who were simply not accustomed to Bob Ezrin's way or working and producing music. They needed the swift kick in the head at that very moment in time. There are Producers who produce and there are those who go in and record a band as they are; allowing the band to control the outcome. Bob Ezrin had a vision and a mission to achieve that vision that was shared by everyone involved going into the Destroyer project. I think Bob Ezrin was fairly transparent before anything started with Kiss. He was a known factor and his producing "style" was not a surprise.

Regarding Kiss, I will always believe that whomever was running the show, made a huge mistake or two in not cementing a stronger relationship with Bob Ezrin. He should have produced much more of Kiss' music during the seventies than just one album (possibly the one album more people talk about than any other).
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Re: Ace confirms Bob Ezrin broke up the band

Post by Sssnakester »

elleneff wrote: Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:02 am Bob Ezrin also made Ace wear that appalling wig and dyed goatee.

What have I learned from Ace from the decades? Nothing is ever Aces fault
I KNEW IT!! That damn goatee just reeked of Ezrin.
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Re: Ace confirms Bob Ezrin broke up the band

Post by doombies »

soo, ace says bob broke up the band because they wouldn’t let ace play on destroyer? shit ace! of course they wouldn’t let you play if you’re just gonna sit on your ass all day playing a card game ! shit ace .🤦🏻‍♂️
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Re: Ace confirms Bob Ezrin broke up the band

Post by Forty Deuce »

Mr Slow wrote: Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:26 pm
Forty Deuce wrote: Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:16 pm
Mr Slow wrote: Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:57 pm
Forty Deuce wrote: Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:15 pm
gene therapist wrote: Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:10 pm
Forty Deuce wrote: Wed Mar 25, 2020 8:14 pm Again, I think Gene and Paul contributed to that. Blame is deserved all around.
Gene and Paul contributed to what? Ace being the person he is?
Yes.
There are Ace apologists and then there is this! :lol:
Ok I’ll bite. How did Gene & Paul contribute to Ace’s decline during the Reunion era?
I am not an Ace apologist at all and again, I never said he doesn't deserve blame as well.

Think about it, before you automatically dismiss it. I will be back tomorrow to see how you did and hopefully you are able to concede that they are all to blame for the problems in the band.
Sorry, I’m not playing your game. You never said they were all to blame, you said they contributed to Ace’s downfall. Those two things are very different.

There’s only one person responsible for Ace’s situation. :ace:
I see you didn't do much thinking and you have done poorly.

I clearly said to Steve:

Truth be told, Paul and Gene deserve some BLAME as well with how things went with the reunion and the problems that returned. It isn't just Ace and Peter.

Really though you are just talking semantics here. Contributed to or deserve partial blame is ultimately the same thing - however neither negates that Ace absolutely deserves blame as well and I never said otherwise.
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Re: Ace confirms Bob Ezrin broke up the band

Post by That 70s Guy »

Bob didn't break up the band Ace,try again.
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Re: Ace confirms Bob Ezrin broke up the band

Post by PSYCHOASYLUM »

aceeg wrote: Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:10 pm https://youtu.be/_I7oho55Sqg

At around 9 min he says he was replaced on Destroyer
And wasn’t told till after it was released!
Providing the cracks in the band!
If it wasn't for this crack I'm pretty positive another crack would soon come along :shock:
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Re: Ace confirms Bob Ezrin broke up the band

Post by aceeg »

Ace gave Bob credit for solo on DRC, all I’m sayin is it was 1 Ace solo that he missed and they replaced him with out his knowledge, they could’ve told Ace the next day to play his solo. 1 day he missed not a week ?
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Re: Ace confirms Bob Ezrin broke up the band

Post by Wiped Out 78 »

If you read "Behind The Mask", it's clear that this wasn't an issue over a card came. At that point in time, Ace and Ezrin were just a bad fit.

Still, G&P tried to course correct by bringing in Eddie Kramer for the next couple of albums.

Ace may still be butthurt about the Destroyer sessions, but it didn't break up the band.
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Re: Ace confirms Bob Ezrin broke up the band

Post by Mr Slow »

Forty Deuce wrote: Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:30 am
Mr Slow wrote: Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:26 pm
Forty Deuce wrote: Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:16 pm
Mr Slow wrote: Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:57 pm
Forty Deuce wrote: Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:15 pm
gene therapist wrote: Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:10 pm
Forty Deuce wrote: Wed Mar 25, 2020 8:14 pm Again, I think Gene and Paul contributed to that. Blame is deserved all around.
Gene and Paul contributed to what? Ace being the person he is?
Yes.
There are Ace apologists and then there is this! :lol:
Ok I’ll bite. How did Gene & Paul contribute to Ace’s decline during the Reunion era?
I am not an Ace apologist at all and again, I never said he doesn't deserve blame as well.

Think about it, before you automatically dismiss it. I will be back tomorrow to see how you did and hopefully you are able to concede that they are all to blame for the problems in the band.
Sorry, I’m not playing your game. You never said they were all to blame, you said they contributed to Ace’s downfall. Those two things are very different.

There’s only one person responsible for Ace’s situation. :ace:
I see you didn't do much thinking and you have done poorly.

I clearly said to Steve:

Truth be told, Paul and Gene deserve some BLAME as well with how things went with the reunion and the problems that returned. It isn't just Ace and Peter.

Really though you are just talking semantics here. Contributed to or deserve partial blame is ultimately the same thing - however neither negates that Ace absolutely deserves blame as well and I never said otherwise.
So you misspoke. That’s all you needed to say.
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Re: Ace confirms Bob Ezrin broke up the band

Post by Forty Deuce »

Mr Slow wrote: Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:36 pm
Forty Deuce wrote: Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:30 am
Mr Slow wrote: Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:26 pm
Forty Deuce wrote: Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:16 pm
Mr Slow wrote: Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:57 pm
Forty Deuce wrote: Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:15 pm
gene therapist wrote: Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:10 pm

Gene and Paul contributed to what? Ace being the person he is?
Yes.
There are Ace apologists and then there is this! :lol:
Ok I’ll bite. How did Gene & Paul contribute to Ace’s decline during the Reunion era?
I am not an Ace apologist at all and again, I never said he doesn't deserve blame as well.

Think about it, before you automatically dismiss it. I will be back tomorrow to see how you did and hopefully you are able to concede that they are all to blame for the problems in the band.
Sorry, I’m not playing your game. You never said they were all to blame, you said they contributed to Ace’s downfall. Those two things are very different.

There’s only one person responsible for Ace’s situation. :ace:
I see you didn't do much thinking and you have done poorly.

I clearly said to Steve:

Truth be told, Paul and Gene deserve some BLAME as well with how things went with the reunion and the problems that returned. It isn't just Ace and Peter.

Really though you are just talking semantics here. Contributed to or deserve partial blame is ultimately the same thing - however neither negates that Ace absolutely deserves blame as well and I never said otherwise.
So you misspoke. That’s all you needed to say.
LOL. No.
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Re: Ace confirms Bob Ezrin broke up the band

Post by Mr Slow »

Forty Deuce wrote: Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:52 pm
Mr Slow wrote: Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:36 pm
Forty Deuce wrote: Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:30 am
Mr Slow wrote: Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:26 pm
Forty Deuce wrote: Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:16 pm
Mr Slow wrote: Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:57 pm
Forty Deuce wrote: Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:15 pm

Yes.
There are Ace apologists and then there is this! :lol:
Ok I’ll bite. How did Gene & Paul contribute to Ace’s decline during the Reunion era?
I am not an Ace apologist at all and again, I never said he doesn't deserve blame as well.

Think about it, before you automatically dismiss it. I will be back tomorrow to see how you did and hopefully you are able to concede that they are all to blame for the problems in the band.
Sorry, I’m not playing your game. You never said they were all to blame, you said they contributed to Ace’s downfall. Those two things are very different.

There’s only one person responsible for Ace’s situation. :ace:
I see you didn't do much thinking and you have done poorly.

I clearly said to Steve:

Truth be told, Paul and Gene deserve some BLAME as well with how things went with the reunion and the problems that returned. It isn't just Ace and Peter.

Really though you are just talking semantics here. Contributed to or deserve partial blame is ultimately the same thing - however neither negates that Ace absolutely deserves blame as well and I never said otherwise.
So you misspoke. That’s all you needed to say.
LOL. No.
You said Gene and Paul contributed to Ace’s problems. You also said they contributed to Ace being the person he is. That’s very different than saying Gene & Paul contributed to the downfall of the reunion. I think we can all accept that. But again, there’s only one person that made Ace slide back into his old habits, and that’s Ace himself.
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Re: Ace confirms Bob Ezrin broke up the band

Post by Forty Deuce »

Mr Slow wrote: Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:59 pm
Forty Deuce wrote: Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:52 pm
Mr Slow wrote: Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:36 pm
Forty Deuce wrote: Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:30 am
Mr Slow wrote: Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:26 pm
Forty Deuce wrote: Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:16 pm
Mr Slow wrote: Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:57 pm

There are Ace apologists and then there is this! :lol:
Ok I’ll bite. How did Gene & Paul contribute to Ace’s decline during the Reunion era?
I am not an Ace apologist at all and again, I never said he doesn't deserve blame as well.

Think about it, before you automatically dismiss it. I will be back tomorrow to see how you did and hopefully you are able to concede that they are all to blame for the problems in the band.
Sorry, I’m not playing your game. You never said they were all to blame, you said they contributed to Ace’s downfall. Those two things are very different.

There’s only one person responsible for Ace’s situation. :ace:
I see you didn't do much thinking and you have done poorly.

I clearly said to Steve:

Truth be told, Paul and Gene deserve some BLAME as well with how things went with the reunion and the problems that returned. It isn't just Ace and Peter.

Really though you are just talking semantics here. Contributed to or deserve partial blame is ultimately the same thing - however neither negates that Ace absolutely deserves blame as well and I never said otherwise.
So you misspoke. That’s all you needed to say.
LOL. No.
You said Gene and Paul contributed to Ace’s problems. You also said they contributed to Ace being the person he is. That’s very different than saying Gene & Paul contributed to the downfall of the reunion. I think we can all accept that. But again, there’s only one person that made Ace slide back into his old habits, and that’s Ace himself.
Paul and Gene contributed to Ace's problems and the downfall of the reunion. Again, that doesn't absolve Ace.
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Re: Ace confirms Bob Ezrin broke up the band

Post by metaldad »

As much as I dislike Ezrin and think he is overrated in the Kiss fan circles
Ace thought it was more important to go to a card game instead of doing his job
And some think Peter was the unprofessional one
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Re: Ace confirms Bob Ezrin broke up the band

Post by aceeg »

metaldad wrote: Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:31 pm As much as I dislike Ezrin and think he is overrated in the Kiss fan circles
Ace thought it was more important to go to a card game instead of doing his job
And some think Peter was the unprofessional one
It was one day he missed not a week or month ? So if he was sick they would’ve replaced him instead of waiting the next day till he was better ?
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Re: Ace confirms Bob Ezrin broke up the band

Post by Mr Slow »

aceeg wrote: Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:33 pm
metaldad wrote: Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:31 pm As much as I dislike Ezrin and think he is overrated in the Kiss fan circles
Ace thought it was more important to go to a card game instead of doing his job
And some think Peter was the unprofessional one
It was one day he missed not a week or month ? So if he was sick they would’ve replaced him instead of waiting the next day till he was better ?
In reality we don’t know how long it was, or if it was just a one off. Maybe it was a power play, a battle of wills. According to most people in the know Ezrin is something of a control freak. Perhaps he had asked Ace multiple times and Ace had refused. Nobody aside from a select few really know what happened. But the point is Ace can’t blame Ezrin for choices that Ace made.
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Re: Ace confirms Bob Ezrin broke up the band

Post by aceeg »

metaldad wrote: Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:31 pm As much as I dislike Ezrin and think he is overrated in the Kiss fan circles
Ace thought it was more important to go to a card game instead of doing his job
And some think Peter was the unprofessional one
He is over rated!
Mitch Lafon agrees Ezrin was the beginning of the end.
Ezrin does the same with Alice Cooper. Instead of using his touring band to record albums he gets session guys, why?
I don’t get it.
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Re: Ace confirms Bob Ezrin broke up the band

Post by Forty Deuce »

I wish they stayed with Ezrin. Their output would be far better. I couldn't care less about the odd studio musician here and there. KISS was still doing that even after Ezrin, so what's the difference?
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Re: Ace confirms Bob Ezrin broke up the band

Post by jkiss »

Forty Deuce wrote: Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:14 pm I wish they stayed with Ezrin. Their output would be far better. I couldn't care less about the odd studio musician here and there. KISS was still doing that even after Ezrin, so what's the difference?
I think the difference was Bill & Bob took any real control away from them, during the process; including Paul & Gene. They all felt the sting of it ...I'm guessing it bothered Gene the least; however, Ace, Peter & Paul weren't very pleased on how it all went down (in the studio). And then Bill went ahead & designed + erected the entire "Destroyer" stage show without their input. Between that + Ezrin (also "Beth" - aside from Peter) ...they were all really unhappy with Bill. Although, little they could actually do about it; other than complain & make it crystal clear as possible.

:scratch:
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Re: Ace confirms Bob Ezrin broke up the band

Post by VanRockCity »

Mr Slow wrote: Wed Mar 25, 2020 4:16 pm “Childish stuff like that”? How about showing up for your session and you wouldn’t need to be replaced! Time is money, you think they wanted to stay in the studio any longer than they had to while he was off playing cards? The schedules were extremely tight back then. They most likely needed to get it done so they could move on.

Good ol’ Ace. Always blaming someone else. :roll:
Ace missed a single session, Gene missed the entire 80's. Not to mention the Ace songs where Gene and Paul are missing.

People need to get over Ace missing a session. For all the talk that he's lazy, they'd been working their asses off to that point, non-stop touring, recording and doing press for over three years, and Ace had an upcoming wedding in the spring of '76. You think he's the only musician who missed a session? Hardly. It was absolutely a stupid decision by Ezrin to bring in a scab for really no reason (certainly the Sweet Pain solo is pretty generic), and it DID contribute to breaking up the band. Do you honestly think if Gene or Paul missed a session, they'd replace him with a scab? It was dumb, and they were never really the same after this. I don't blame Ace Frehley one bit.
Last edited by VanRockCity on Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ace confirms Bob Ezrin broke up the band

Post by elleneff »

metaldad wrote: Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:31 pm As much as I dislike Ezrin and think he is overrated in the Kiss fan circles
Ace thought it was more important to go to a card game instead of doing his job
And some think Peter was the unprofessional one
Another way of looking at it is via passive managerial tactics:

Lets presuppose Ezrin (who wrote the DRC solo, on a Spanish acoustic), Knew Wagner had a great solo that would fit Sweet Pain perfectly and dammit he wants that.
Ace cant nail it. (We heard his take on Resurrected, it wasn't as good or tight a fit)
Ezrin waits till Ace was finished for the day and then brings in Dick that night to record the solo he wants.
Ace was asked to hang around but technically was off that evening. He did his days parts.

He gets Gene and Paul to agree to the cover story that Ace refused to do his part when Bob needed him ONLY if asked.

Same way in the 80s Paul decided to overdub and replaced Carrs parts on certain records and tracks with Allen Schwartzberg. Singer, drum machines or Valentine, when Carr was finished his contractual drum parts and not available or on leave.
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Re: Ace confirms Bob Ezrin broke up the band

Post by metaldad »

aceeg wrote: Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:50 pm
metaldad wrote: Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:31 pm As much as I dislike Ezrin and think he is overrated in the Kiss fan circles
Ace thought it was more important to go to a card game instead of doing his job
And some think Peter was the unprofessional one
He is over rated!
Mitch Lafon agrees Ezrin was the beginning of the end.
Ezrin does the same with Alice Cooper. Instead of using his touring band to record albums he gets session guys, why?
I don’t get it.
Exactly
He does it with Deep Purple as well
Alice has a Fantastic band but Bob needs to have his way
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Re: Ace confirms Bob Ezrin broke up the band

Post by metaldad »

aceeg wrote: Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:33 pm
metaldad wrote: Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:31 pm As much as I dislike Ezrin and think he is overrated in the Kiss fan circles
Ace thought it was more important to go to a card game instead of doing his job
And some think Peter was the unprofessional one
It was one day he missed not a week or month ? So if he was sick they would’ve replaced him instead of waiting the next day till he was better ?
Ya know I have no clue
But Ace has talked about card games in the past and I have read many times it was during destroyer
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Re: Ace confirms Bob Ezrin broke up the band

Post by metaldad »

elleneff wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:19 am
metaldad wrote: Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:31 pm As much as I dislike Ezrin and think he is overrated in the Kiss fan circles
Ace thought it was more important to go to a card game instead of doing his job
And some think Peter was the unprofessional one
Another way of looking at it is via passive managerial tactics:

Lets presuppose Ezrin (who wrote the DRC solo, on a Spanish acoustic), Knew Wagner had a great solo that would fit Sweet Pain perfectly and dammit he wants that.
Ace cant nail it. (We heard his take on Resurrected, it wasn't as good or tight a fit)
Ezrin waits till Ace was finished for the day and then brings in Dick that night to record the solo he wants.
Ace was asked to hang around but technically was off that evening. He did his days parts.

He gets Gene and Paul to agree to the cover story that Ace refused to do his part when Bob needed him ONLY if asked.

Same way in the 80s Paul decided to overdub and replaced Carrs parts on certain records and tracks with Allen Schwartzberg. Singer, drum machines or Valentine, when Carr was finished his contractual drum parts and not available or on leave.
Valid points
Sad that with Kiss it is really hard to believe Anything
Their track record speaks for itself
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Re: Ace confirms Bob Ezrin broke up the band

Post by Going Blind »

aceeg wrote: Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:50 pm
metaldad wrote: Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:31 pm As much as I dislike Ezrin and think he is overrated in the Kiss fan circles
Ace thought it was more important to go to a card game instead of doing his job
And some think Peter was the unprofessional one
He is over rated!
Mitch Lafon agrees Ezrin was the beginning of the end.
Ezrin does the same with Alice Cooper. Instead of using his touring band to record albums he gets session guys, why?
I don’t get it.
I'm guessing Ezrin might have had his own interests ahead of the band's interest. As a producer, every hit he produces gives him that much more control, power, and money for the next production. It sounds like Ezrin was deathly afraid of a flop. Most likely dealing with Kiss on Destroyer, he figured this bunch of misfits (yet to have a studio hit) needed military style treatment and they weren't about to ruin his track record, probably the same with the Alice Cooper band. With that type of mentality, it was easier to get what he wanted by simply replacing band members when needed. His ego was probably out of control on The Elder, and he lost perspective, enough perspective to tell Gene this is not going to work. He probably figured if he can produce The Wall with great success he could make The Elder work also.

To be fair, bands went to him for a reason, so they must have known what they were getting into, not expecting a walk in the park with Bob.
Last edited by Going Blind on Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:32 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Ace confirms Bob Ezrin broke up the band

Post by elleneff »

metaldad wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:10 am
elleneff wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:19 am
metaldad wrote: Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:31 pm As much as I dislike Ezrin and think he is overrated in the Kiss fan circles
Ace thought it was more important to go to a card game instead of doing his job
And some think Peter was the unprofessional one
Another way of looking at it is via passive managerial tactics:

Lets presuppose Ezrin (who wrote the DRC solo, on a Spanish acoustic), Knew Wagner had a great solo that would fit Sweet Pain perfectly and dammit he wants that.
Ace cant nail it. (We heard his take on Resurrected, it wasn't as good or tight a fit)
Ezrin waits till Ace was finished for the day and then brings in Dick that night to record the solo he wants.
Ace was asked to hang around but technically was off that evening. He did his days parts.

He gets Gene and Paul to agree to the cover story that Ace refused to do his part when Bob needed him ONLY if asked.

Same way in the 80s Paul decided to overdub and replaced Carrs parts on certain records and tracks with Allen Schwartzberg. Singer, drum machines or Valentine, when Carr was finished his contractual drum parts and not available or on leave.
Valid points
Sad that with Kiss it is really hard to believe Anything
Their track record speaks for itself
Not stating as fact of course.
BUT we know how Ezrin works and who he prefers to have as his session people no matter what project/ band. artist hes on.
Ezrin readily replaced great players in Coopers band like Buxton, Smith, Dunaway and Bruce etc
I would say that they were all better players than Kiss were at that time.
Ezrin also replayed Roger Waters bass playing on record as he thought his delivery and ability wasn't up to scratch.
Bob is great when working with an artist, not so much a band (Floyd aside) imo

I am now as then fairly confident that Ezrin replaced far more than whats admitted to on Destroyer. and Iv little doubt either Bob or Prakash played bass parts and Schartzberg accidentally admitted he overdubbed Drums on Destroyer.
Add in the bought in songs from Fowley and Anthony for King and Penridge for Beth.

We know Gene and Paul stick to the script to maintain the illusion, unless confronted with the facts and even then they dance around it.
For example in Greg PRATOS Take it off book, Gene admitted to Anthrax`Charlie Benante that it was Carmine Appice and Anton Figg on Drums on alive 2 side 4 and that it was fairly obvious what was and wasn't Peter.

My take on this was it was Bobs modus in working, his practice in buying in songs, in replacing parts, in maintaining publishing, in session people and that the concept delivered was that of a band that ruined the band method in working. Gene and Paul saw logic, efficiency, and control, in the way Bob worked, in delivering yearly to get a record advance that veered them away from being a working 4 man band.

Personally - Iv always maintained that Destroyer was a concept album. The concept WAS Kiss in so far as redefining Kiss as broadway cartoon characters. and in that the record was a huge success.....eventually.
We know it wasn't initially till Beth broke out. Up to that point they dismissed the record as a misguided disaster and already planned to go back to 3 min songs with Kramer for RARO

and of course in the 80s we started hearing interviews, dancing around certain facts like, you know it doesn't really matter who played what, If Gene played bass or Paul did rythem on a track. If it says Kiss on the cover and sounds like Kiss to you, then its Kiss. Doesn't matter how they got there.
Creatures was a prime example. It was Gene collecting his parts, Paul doing his and a plethora of session guests. The fact in this instance the result worked and sounded great was probably more down to MJJ than either Gene or Paul.
Last edited by elleneff on Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ace confirms Bob Ezrin broke up the band

Post by Going Blind »

elleneff wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:52 am
metaldad wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:10 am
elleneff wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:19 am
metaldad wrote: Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:31 pm As much as I dislike Ezrin and think he is overrated in the Kiss fan circles
Ace thought it was more important to go to a card game instead of doing his job
And some think Peter was the unprofessional one
Another way of looking at it is via passive managerial tactics:

Lets presuppose Ezrin (who wrote the DRC solo, on a Spanish acoustic), Knew Wagner had a great solo that would fit Sweet Pain perfectly and dammit he wants that.
Ace cant nail it. (We heard his take on Resurrected, it wasn't as good or tight a fit)
Ezrin waits till Ace was finished for the day and then brings in Dick that night to record the solo he wants.
Ace was asked to hang around but technically was off that evening. He did his days parts.

He gets Gene and Paul to agree to the cover story that Ace refused to do his part when Bob needed him ONLY if asked.

Same way in the 80s Paul decided to overdub and replaced Carrs parts on certain records and tracks with Allen Schwartzberg. Singer, drum machines or Valentine, when Carr was finished his contractual drum parts and not available or on leave. Doesn't even seem it was intentional on the band's part but BoB tracked that way so the audience could maybe figure it out on thier own if they cared to.
Valid points
Sad that with Kiss it is really hard to believe Anything
Their track record speaks for itself
Not stating as fact of course.
BUT we know how Ezrin works and who he prefers to have as his session people no matter what project/ band. artist hes on.
Ezrin readily replaced great players in Coopers band like Buxton, Smith, Dunaway and Bruce etc
I would say that they were all better players than Kiss were at that time.
Ezrin also replayed Roger Waters bass playing on record as he thought his delivery and ability wasn't up to scratch.
Bob is great when working with an artist, not so much a band (Floyd aside) imo

I am now as then fairly confident that Ezrin replaced far more than whats admitted to on Destroyer. and Iv little doubt either Bob or Prakash played bass parts and Schartzberg accidentally admitted he overdubbed Drums on Destroyer.
Add in the bought in songs from Fowley and Anthony for King and Penridge for Beth.

We know Gene and Paul stick to the script to maintain the illusion, unless confronted with the facts and even then they dance around it.
For example in Greg PRATOS Take it off book, Gene admitted to Anthrax`Charlie Benante that it was Carmine Appice and Anton Figg on Drums on alive 2 side 4 and that it was fairly obvious what was and wasn't Peter.

My take on this was it was Bobs modus in working, his practice in buying in songs, in replacing parts, in maintaining publishing, in session people and that the concept delivered was that of a band that ruined the band method in working. Gene and Paul saw logic, efficiency, and control, in the way Bob worked, in delivering yearly to get a record advance that veered them away from being a working 4 man band.

Personally - Iv always maintained that Destroyer was a concept album. The concept WAS Kiss in so far as redefining Kiss as broadway cartoon characters. and in that the record was a huge success.....eventually.
We know it wasn't initially till Beth broke out. Up to that point they dismissed the record as a misguided disaster and already planned to go back to 3 min songs with Kramer for RARO

and of course in the 80s we started hearing interviews, dancing around certain facts like, you know it doesn't really matter who played what, If Gee played bass or Paul did rythem on a track. t it says Kiss on the cover and sounds like Kiss to you, then its Kiss. Doesn't matter how they got there.
Creatures was a prime example. It was Gene collecting his parts, Paul doing his and a plethora of session guests. The fact in this instance the result worked and sounded great was probably more down to MJJ that either Gene or Paul.
The only way I can figure that Destroyer is a concept album is in this way. Detroit Rock City as the first song gives us our beginng and ending. The rest of the album is the Kiss concert (probably never attended by the driver). Rock and Roll party, (which was not even on every copy of Destroyer, at least at the time) is the driver of the car wrecks soul, passing by the concert on the way to whatever afterlife he was destined for. Other than that it's really diffucult to piece together a story. The concept sounds rather unintentional on the bands part, it sounds like Bob had it tracked that way and tagged Rock and Roll party on to give fans something to think about.
Last edited by Going Blind on Fri Mar 27, 2020 10:47 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Ace confirms Bob Ezrin broke up the band

Post by Forty Deuce »

jkiss wrote: Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:59 pm
Forty Deuce wrote: Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:14 pm I wish they stayed with Ezrin. Their output would be far better. I couldn't care less about the odd studio musician here and there. KISS was still doing that even after Ezrin, so what's the difference?
I think the difference was Bill & Bob took any real control away from them, during the process; including Paul & Gene. They all felt the sting of it ...I'm guessing it bothered Gene the least; however, Ace, Peter & Paul weren't very pleased on how it all went down (in the studio). And then Bill went ahead & designed + erected the entire "Destroyer" stage show without their input. Between that + Ezrin (also "Beth" - aside from Peter) ...they were all really unhappy with Bill. Although, little they could actually do about it; other than complain & make it crystal clear as possible.

:scratch:
I say good when it comes to Bob anyway. There are plenty of examples of KISS garbage when Paul and Gene were in control. I have no doubt in my mind that if Ezrin produced all their albums from Destroyer on, their musical output and legacy would be FAR better.
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Re: Ace confirms Bob Ezrin broke up the band

Post by StraightThruTheHeart »

Bob Ezrin has been instrumental in the breakup of many bands... Alice Cooper, Pink Floyd and KISS.
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Re: Ace confirms Bob Ezrin broke up the band

Post by andreww1962 »

You never know how a situation went unless you were actually there. I do know that Ezrin was doing a ton of coke at the time, so there's that. But questions I'd ask are; What time was the session? Was Ace even scheduled to be there? Did they actually make an effort to contact him? And, was it essential that Ace do that solo right there and then? The reason I say this is because Gene and Paul never really seemed to have a problem with using more talented session players. Look at Psycho Circus, was Ace playing poker that whole time? Of course not. I think in their minds they believe that if they surround themselves with better players, the music will be better, which clearly isn't the case.
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Re: Ace confirms Bob Ezrin broke up the band

Post by Going Blind »

StraightThruTheHeart wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:50 am Bob Ezrin has been instrumental in the breakup of many bands... Alice Cooper, Pink Floyd and KISS.
It does seem like a coincidence that bands work with Ezrin and then run into problems thereafter. I think for Floyd though it was Waters asserting himself as Emperor of Floyd. Peter Criss says Bob was brutal to him but Pete actually is grateful for the experience and it made him a better drummer (or something to that effect). Not the first thing you would expect Pete to say about the situation but there you go.
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Re: Ace confirms Bob Ezrin broke up the band

Post by Forty Deuce »

StraightThruTheHeart wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:50 am Bob Ezrin has been instrumental in the breakup of many bands... Alice Cooper, Pink Floyd and KISS.
Give me a break. Alice Cooper is still working with Ezrin, so is it at all possible that not all bands are meant to be together permanently. You are delusional if you think there weren't other issues within the bands that caused problems, but fans want to look at Ezrin as some sort of band killing bogeyman. Ace would not still be in KISS if Destroyer and The Elder never happened.
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Re: Ace confirms Bob Ezrin broke up the band

Post by elleneff »

Going Blind wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:28 am
elleneff wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:52 am
metaldad wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:10 am
elleneff wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:19 am
metaldad wrote: Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:31 pm As much as I dislike Ezrin and think he is overrated in the Kiss fan circles
Ace thought it was more important to go to a card game instead of doing his job
And some think Peter was the unprofessional one
Another way of looking at it is via passive managerial tactics:

Lets presuppose Ezrin (who wrote the DRC solo, on a Spanish acoustic), Knew Wagner had a great solo that would fit Sweet Pain perfectly and dammit he wants that.
Ace cant nail it. (We heard his take on Resurrected, it wasn't as good or tight a fit)
Ezrin waits till Ace was finished for the day and then brings in Dick that night to record the solo he wants.
Ace was asked to hang around but technically was off that evening. He did his days parts.

He gets Gene and Paul to agree to the cover story that Ace refused to do his part when Bob needed him ONLY if asked.

Same way in the 80s Paul decided to overdub and replaced Carrs parts on certain records and tracks with Allen Schwartzberg. Singer, drum machines or Valentine, when Carr was finished his contractual drum parts and not available or on leave. Doesn't even seem it was intentional on the band's part but BoB tracked that way so the audience could maybe figure it out on thier own if they cared to.
Valid points
Sad that with Kiss it is really hard to believe Anything
Their track record speaks for itself
Not stating as fact of course.
BUT we know how Ezrin works and who he prefers to have as his session people no matter what project/ band. artist hes on.
Ezrin readily replaced great players in Coopers band like Buxton, Smith, Dunaway and Bruce etc
I would say that they were all better players than Kiss were at that time.
Ezrin also replayed Roger Waters bass playing on record as he thought his delivery and ability wasn't up to scratch.
Bob is great when working with an artist, not so much a band (Floyd aside) imo

I am now as then fairly confident that Ezrin replaced far more than whats admitted to on Destroyer. and Iv little doubt either Bob or Prakash played bass parts and Schartzberg accidentally admitted he overdubbed Drums on Destroyer.
Add in the bought in songs from Fowley and Anthony for King and Penridge for Beth.

We know Gene and Paul stick to the script to maintain the illusion, unless confronted with the facts and even then they dance around it.
For example in Greg PRATOS Take it off book, Gene admitted to Anthrax`Charlie Benante that it was Carmine Appice and Anton Figg on Drums on alive 2 side 4 and that it was fairly obvious what was and wasn't Peter.

My take on this was it was Bobs modus in working, his practice in buying in songs, in replacing parts, in maintaining publishing, in session people and that the concept delivered was that of a band that ruined the band method in working. Gene and Paul saw logic, efficiency, and control, in the way Bob worked, in delivering yearly to get a record advance that veered them away from being a working 4 man band.

Personally - Iv always maintained that Destroyer was a concept album. The concept WAS Kiss in so far as redefining Kiss as broadway cartoon characters. and in that the record was a huge success.....eventually.
We know it wasn't initially till Beth broke out. Up to that point they dismissed the record as a misguided disaster and already planned to go back to 3 min songs with Kramer for RARO

and of course in the 80s we started hearing interviews, dancing around certain facts like, you know it doesn't really matter who played what, If Gee played bass or Paul did rythem on a track. t it says Kiss on the cover and sounds like Kiss to you, then its Kiss. Doesn't matter how they got there.
Creatures was a prime example. It was Gene collecting his parts, Paul doing his and a plethora of session guests. The fact in this instance the result worked and sounded great was probably more down to MJJ that either Gene or Paul.
The only way I can figure that Destroyer is a concept album is in this way. Detroit Rock City as the first song gives us our beginng and ending. The rest of the album is the Kiss concert (probably never attended by the driver). Rock and Roll party, (which was not even on every copy of Destroyer, at least at the time) is the driver of the car wrecks soul, passing by the concert on the way to whatever afterlife he was destined for. Other than that it's really diffucult to piece together a story. The concept sounds rather unintentional on the bands part, it sounds like Bob had it tracked that way and tagged Rock and Roll party on to give fans something to think about.
I used to think this also, Trying to figure out what the concept story was from a` if its a concept record, whats the concept story POV?".
The concept (and Bob inferred as much in many interviews over the years,) initially it started as a concept record and there was a story outline of sorts. But as the making when on It because clear that the concept was defining what the band was in terms of characters, so the concept wasnt like say, Alices From the inside or Bat out of Hell where theres a clear story and outline but more like Billion Dollar Babies where it refined what the band could be in terms of optics and presentation.
Thats my take.
Honestly IMO the concept if there was one fizzled out by the time King ended.



On the other hand, your take is equally as pertinent. And I say this as Kiss is whatever the fans project upon it and wish them to be. and they seem fine with that.
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Re: Ace confirms Bob Ezrin broke up the band

Post by StraightThruTheHeart »

Forty Deuce wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:11 am Give me a break. Alice Cooper is still working with Ezrin, so is it at all possible that not all bands are meant to be together permanently. You are delusional if you think there weren't other issues within the bands that caused problems, but fans want to look at Ezrin as some sort of band killing bogeyman. Ace would not still be in KISS if Destroyer and The Elder never happened.
Bob working with these bands certainly didn't help. He puts no value on using the actual band members which has has clearly played a part in fractures within many of these bands.

So, you can't dismiss it out of hand...
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Re: Ace confirms Bob Ezrin broke up the band

Post by Going Blind »

elleneff wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:53 am
Going Blind wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:28 am
elleneff wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:52 am
metaldad wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:10 am
elleneff wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:19 am
metaldad wrote: Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:31 pm As much as I dislike Ezrin and think he is overrated in the Kiss fan circles
Ace thought it was more important to go to a card game instead of doing his job
And some think Peter was the unprofessional one
Another way of looking at it is via passive managerial tactics:

Lets presuppose Ezrin (who wrote the DRC solo, on a Spanish acoustic), Knew Wagner had a great solo that would fit Sweet Pain perfectly and dammit he wants that.
Ace cant nail it. (We heard his take on Resurrected, it wasn't as good or tight a fit)
Ezrin waits till Ace was finished for the day and then brings in Dick that night to record the solo he wants.
Ace was asked to hang around but technically was off that evening. He did his days parts.

He gets Gene and Paul to agree to the cover story that Ace refused to do his part when Bob needed him ONLY if asked.

Same way in the 80s Paul decided to overdub and replaced Carrs parts on certain records and tracks with Allen Schwartzberg. Singer, drum machines or Valentine, when Carr was finished his contractual drum parts and not available or on leave. Doesn't even seem it was intentional on the band's part but BoB tracked that way so the audience could maybe figure it out on thier own if they cared to.
Valid points
Sad that with Kiss it is really hard to believe Anything
Their track record speaks for itself
Not stating as fact of course.
BUT we know how Ezrin works and who he prefers to have as his session people no matter what project/ band. artist hes on.
Ezrin readily replaced great players in Coopers band like Buxton, Smith, Dunaway and Bruce etc
I would say that they were all better players than Kiss were at that time.
Ezrin also replayed Roger Waters bass playing on record as he thought his delivery and ability wasn't up to scratch.
Bob is great when working with an artist, not so much a band (Floyd aside) imo

I am now as then fairly confident that Ezrin replaced far more than whats admitted to on Destroyer. and Iv little doubt either Bob or Prakash played bass parts and Schartzberg accidentally admitted he overdubbed Drums on Destroyer.
Add in the bought in songs from Fowley and Anthony for King and Penridge for Beth.

We know Gene and Paul stick to the script to maintain the illusion, unless confronted with the facts and even then they dance around it.
For example in Greg PRATOS Take it off book, Gene admitted to Anthrax`Charlie Benante that it was Carmine Appice and Anton Figg on Drums on alive 2 side 4 and that it was fairly obvious what was and wasn't Peter.

My take on this was it was Bobs modus in working, his practice in buying in songs, in replacing parts, in maintaining publishing, in session people and that the concept delivered was that of a band that ruined the band method in working. Gene and Paul saw logic, efficiency, and control, in the way Bob worked, in delivering yearly to get a record advance that veered them away from being a working 4 man band.

Personally - Iv always maintained that Destroyer was a concept album. The concept WAS Kiss in so far as redefining Kiss as broadway cartoon characters. and in that the record was a huge success.....eventually.
We know it wasn't initially till Beth broke out. Up to that point they dismissed the record as a misguided disaster and already planned to go back to 3 min songs with Kramer for RARO

and of course in the 80s we started hearing interviews, dancing around certain facts like, you know it doesn't really matter who played what, If Gee played bass or Paul did rythem on a track. t it says Kiss on the cover and sounds like Kiss to you, then its Kiss. Doesn't matter how they got there.
Creatures was a prime example. It was Gene collecting his parts, Paul doing his and a plethora of session guests. The fact in this instance the result worked and sounded great was probably more down to MJJ that either Gene or Paul.
The only way I can figure that Destroyer is a concept album is in this way. Detroit Rock City as the first song gives us our beginng and ending. The rest of the album is the Kiss concert (probably never attended by the driver). Rock and Roll party, (which was not even on every copy of Destroyer, at least at the time) is the driver of the car wrecks soul, passing by the concert on the way to whatever afterlife he was destined for. Other than that it's really diffucult to piece together a story. The concept sounds rather unintentional on the bands part, it sounds like Bob had it tracked that way and tagged Rock and Roll party on to give fans something to think about.
I used to think this also, Trying to figure out what the concept story was from a` if its a concept record, whats the concept story POV?".
The concept (and Bob inferred as much in many interviews over the years,) initially it started as a concept record and there was a story outline of sorts. But as the making when on It because clear that the concept was defining what the band was in terms of characters, so the concept wasnt like say, Alices From the inside or Bat out of Hell where theres a clear story and outline but more like Billion Dollar Babies where it refined what the band could be in terms of optics and presentation.
Thats my take.
Honestly IMO the concept if there was one fizzled out by the time King ended.



On the other hand, your take is equally as pertinent. And I say this as Kiss is whatever the fans project upon it and wish them to be. and they seem fine with that.
Actually, my take is a pathetic attempt at trying to figure out the concept, the best I could. lol. Defining the band in terms of characters makes more sense, actually makes use of the songs in a thematic way instead of just a filler concept in the middle. God of Thunder, Great Expectations, King of the Nighttime world, Do you love me. Yes, I can see what you're getting at. Who knows? Maybe Beth could be seen as the downside to being these types of larger than life characters? Not always glamorous and human underneath it all.
Last edited by Going Blind on Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ace confirms Bob Ezrin broke up the band

Post by Forty Deuce »

StraightThruTheHeart wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:01 pm
Forty Deuce wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:11 am Give me a break. Alice Cooper is still working with Ezrin, so is it at all possible that not all bands are meant to be together permanently. You are delusional if you think there weren't other issues within the bands that caused problems, but fans want to look at Ezrin as some sort of band killing bogeyman. Ace would not still be in KISS if Destroyer and The Elder never happened.
Bob working with these bands certainly didn't help. He puts no value on using the actual band members which has has clearly played a part in fractures within many of these bands.

So, you can't dismiss it out of hand...
TONS of producers do this. At the end of the day, it is nothing more than wanting to make the best album possible. Dick Wagner's solo on Sweet Pain blows away the Ace version.
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Re: Ace confirms Bob Ezrin broke up the band

Post by elleneff »

Going Blind wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:26 pm
elleneff wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:53 am
Going Blind wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:28 am
elleneff wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:52 am
metaldad wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:10 am
elleneff wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:19 am
metaldad wrote: Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:31 pm As much as I dislike Ezrin and think he is overrated in the Kiss fan circles
Ace thought it was more important to go to a card game instead of doing his job
And some think Peter was the unprofessional one
Another way of looking at it is via passive managerial tactics:

Lets presuppose Ezrin (who wrote the DRC solo, on a Spanish acoustic), Knew Wagner had a great solo that would fit Sweet Pain perfectly and dammit he wants that.
Ace cant nail it. (We heard his take on Resurrected, it wasn't as good or tight a fit)
Ezrin waits till Ace was finished for the day and then brings in Dick that night to record the solo he wants.
Ace was asked to hang around but technically was off that evening. He did his days parts.

He gets Gene and Paul to agree to the cover story that Ace refused to do his part when Bob needed him ONLY if asked.

Same way in the 80s Paul decided to overdub and replaced Carrs parts on certain records and tracks with Allen Schwartzberg. Singer, drum machines or Valentine, when Carr was finished his contractual drum parts and not available or on leave. Doesn't even seem it was intentional on the band's part but BoB tracked that way so the audience could maybe figure it out on thier own if they cared to.
Valid points
Sad that with Kiss it is really hard to believe Anything
Their track record speaks for itself
Not stating as fact of course.
BUT we know how Ezrin works and who he prefers to have as his session people no matter what project/ band. artist hes on.
Ezrin readily replaced great players in Coopers band like Buxton, Smith, Dunaway and Bruce etc
I would say that they were all better players than Kiss were at that time.
Ezrin also replayed Roger Waters bass playing on record as he thought his delivery and ability wasn't up to scratch.
Bob is great when working with an artist, not so much a band (Floyd aside) imo

I am now as then fairly confident that Ezrin replaced far more than whats admitted to on Destroyer. and Iv little doubt either Bob or Prakash played bass parts and Schartzberg accidentally admitted he overdubbed Drums on Destroyer.
Add in the bought in songs from Fowley and Anthony for King and Penridge for Beth.

We know Gene and Paul stick to the script to maintain the illusion, unless confronted with the facts and even then they dance around it.
For example in Greg PRATOS Take it off book, Gene admitted to Anthrax`Charlie Benante that it was Carmine Appice and Anton Figg on Drums on alive 2 side 4 and that it was fairly obvious what was and wasn't Peter.

My take on this was it was Bobs modus in working, his practice in buying in songs, in replacing parts, in maintaining publishing, in session people and that the concept delivered was that of a band that ruined the band method in working. Gene and Paul saw logic, efficiency, and control, in the way Bob worked, in delivering yearly to get a record advance that veered them away from being a working 4 man band.

Personally - Iv always maintained that Destroyer was a concept album. The concept WAS Kiss in so far as redefining Kiss as broadway cartoon characters. and in that the record was a huge success.....eventually.
We know it wasn't initially till Beth broke out. Up to that point they dismissed the record as a misguided disaster and already planned to go back to 3 min songs with Kramer for RARO

and of course in the 80s we started hearing interviews, dancing around certain facts like, you know it doesn't really matter who played what, If Gee played bass or Paul did rythem on a track. t it says Kiss on the cover and sounds like Kiss to you, then its Kiss. Doesn't matter how they got there.
Creatures was a prime example. It was Gene collecting his parts, Paul doing his and a plethora of session guests. The fact in this instance the result worked and sounded great was probably more down to MJJ that either Gene or Paul.
The only way I can figure that Destroyer is a concept album is in this way. Detroit Rock City as the first song gives us our beginng and ending. The rest of the album is the Kiss concert (probably never attended by the driver). Rock and Roll party, (which was not even on every copy of Destroyer, at least at the time) is the driver of the car wrecks soul, passing by the concert on the way to whatever afterlife he was destined for. Other than that it's really diffucult to piece together a story. The concept sounds rather unintentional on the bands part, it sounds like Bob had it tracked that way and tagged Rock and Roll party on to give fans something to think about.
I used to think this also, Trying to figure out what the concept story was from a` if its a concept record, whats the concept story POV?".
The concept (and Bob inferred as much in many interviews over the years,) initially it started as a concept record and there was a story outline of sorts. But as the making when on It because clear that the concept was defining what the band was in terms of characters, so the concept wasnt like say, Alices From the inside or Bat out of Hell where theres a clear story and outline but more like Billion Dollar Babies where it refined what the band could be in terms of optics and presentation.
Thats my take.
Honestly IMO the concept if there was one fizzled out by the time King ended.



On the other hand, your take is equally as pertinent. And I say this as Kiss is whatever the fans project upon it and wish them to be. and they seem fine with that.
Actually, my take is a pathetic attempt at trying to figure out the concept, the best I could. lol. Defining the band in terms of characters makes more sense, actually makes use of the songs in a thematic way instead of just a filler concept in the middle. God of Thunder, Great Expectations, King of the Nighttime world, Do you love me. Yes, I can see what you're getting at. Who knows? Maybe Beth could be seen as the downside to being these types of larger than life characters? Not always glamorous and human underneath it all.
Reading everything I could as we all have here over the years and decades, what Destroyer tried to do was elevate Kiss from the scrappy, niche theatrical garage band in leather and basic costumes to a more grandiouse Broadway version. Lycra replaced leather. Diamante sparkles and dragon boots replaced the basic concept (from the Destroyer outfits to the Dynasty was a pretty logical step of Kiss going BIGGER, /BETTER Aand more outrageous in terms of those uniform icon colours. As far away from what they were 5 years prior in 74. Dangerous, intense Rock show to broadway glam performance.

and again Destroyer was a total flop and bomb. commercially and critically. They already started planning RARO and getting Kramer and had started telling people Destroyer was a misstep and Ezrin pushed them too far HIS way. The Destroyer tour and set was stripped back pretty quickly


Then......Beth hit. and suddenly, they loved Bob again.
With Kiss, history is something that apparently be rewritten as it was ALL part of their plan
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Re: Ace confirms Bob Ezrin broke up the band

Post by elleneff »

Forty Deuce wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:21 pm
StraightThruTheHeart wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:01 pm
Forty Deuce wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:11 am Give me a break. Alice Cooper is still working with Ezrin, so is it at all possible that not all bands are meant to be together permanently. You are delusional if you think there weren't other issues within the bands that caused problems, but fans want to look at Ezrin as some sort of band killing bogeyman. Ace would not still be in KISS if Destroyer and The Elder never happened.
Bob working with these bands certainly didn't help. He puts no value on using the actual band members which has has clearly played a part in fractures within many of these bands.

So, you can't dismiss it out of hand...
TONS of producers do this. At the end of the day, it is nothing more than wanting to make the best album possible. Dick Wagner's solo on Sweet Pain blows away the Ace version.
Oh totally. Yes they do and yes Wagners solo and playing was superb and Ezrins composed solo on DRC is legendary as was the solo break in King. Destroyer was calculated to the smallest detail.

But do you think Bob pulls that crap with Deep PURPLE? nope. he knows they can deliver and listen to his ideas ( well now with Norse, maybe not so much if Blackmore was still there)
Iv often thought Cheap Trick , had they done an Ezrin album, would Bob shuffle players? or know , Bun, Tom, Robin and Rick can deliver exactly whats needed for the songs and album? ?
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Re: Ace confirms Bob Ezrin broke up the band

Post by Forty Deuce »

elleneff wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:39 pm
Going Blind wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:26 pm
elleneff wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:53 am
Going Blind wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:28 am
elleneff wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:52 am
metaldad wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:10 am
elleneff wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:19 am

Another way of looking at it is via passive managerial tactics:

Lets presuppose Ezrin (who wrote the DRC solo, on a Spanish acoustic), Knew Wagner had a great solo that would fit Sweet Pain perfectly and dammit he wants that.
Ace cant nail it. (We heard his take on Resurrected, it wasn't as good or tight a fit)
Ezrin waits till Ace was finished for the day and then brings in Dick that night to record the solo he wants.
Ace was asked to hang around but technically was off that evening. He did his days parts.

He gets Gene and Paul to agree to the cover story that Ace refused to do his part when Bob needed him ONLY if asked.

Same way in the 80s Paul decided to overdub and replaced Carrs parts on certain records and tracks with Allen Schwartzberg. Singer, drum machines or Valentine, when Carr was finished his contractual drum parts and not available or on leave. Doesn't even seem it was intentional on the band's part but BoB tracked that way so the audience could maybe figure it out on thier own if they cared to.
Valid points
Sad that with Kiss it is really hard to believe Anything
Their track record speaks for itself
Not stating as fact of course.
BUT we know how Ezrin works and who he prefers to have as his session people no matter what project/ band. artist hes on.
Ezrin readily replaced great players in Coopers band like Buxton, Smith, Dunaway and Bruce etc
I would say that they were all better players than Kiss were at that time.
Ezrin also replayed Roger Waters bass playing on record as he thought his delivery and ability wasn't up to scratch.
Bob is great when working with an artist, not so much a band (Floyd aside) imo

I am now as then fairly confident that Ezrin replaced far more than whats admitted to on Destroyer. and Iv little doubt either Bob or Prakash played bass parts and Schartzberg accidentally admitted he overdubbed Drums on Destroyer.
Add in the bought in songs from Fowley and Anthony for King and Penridge for Beth.

We know Gene and Paul stick to the script to maintain the illusion, unless confronted with the facts and even then they dance around it.
For example in Greg PRATOS Take it off book, Gene admitted to Anthrax`Charlie Benante that it was Carmine Appice and Anton Figg on Drums on alive 2 side 4 and that it was fairly obvious what was and wasn't Peter.

My take on this was it was Bobs modus in working, his practice in buying in songs, in replacing parts, in maintaining publishing, in session people and that the concept delivered was that of a band that ruined the band method in working. Gene and Paul saw logic, efficiency, and control, in the way Bob worked, in delivering yearly to get a record advance that veered them away from being a working 4 man band.

Personally - Iv always maintained that Destroyer was a concept album. The concept WAS Kiss in so far as redefining Kiss as broadway cartoon characters. and in that the record was a huge success.....eventually.
We know it wasn't initially till Beth broke out. Up to that point they dismissed the record as a misguided disaster and already planned to go back to 3 min songs with Kramer for RARO

and of course in the 80s we started hearing interviews, dancing around certain facts like, you know it doesn't really matter who played what, If Gee played bass or Paul did rythem on a track. t it says Kiss on the cover and sounds like Kiss to you, then its Kiss. Doesn't matter how they got there.
Creatures was a prime example. It was Gene collecting his parts, Paul doing his and a plethora of session guests. The fact in this instance the result worked and sounded great was probably more down to MJJ that either Gene or Paul.
The only way I can figure that Destroyer is a concept album is in this way. Detroit Rock City as the first song gives us our beginng and ending. The rest of the album is the Kiss concert (probably never attended by the driver). Rock and Roll party, (which was not even on every copy of Destroyer, at least at the time) is the driver of the car wrecks soul, passing by the concert on the way to whatever afterlife he was destined for. Other than that it's really diffucult to piece together a story. The concept sounds rather unintentional on the bands part, it sounds like Bob had it tracked that way and tagged Rock and Roll party on to give fans something to think about.
I used to think this also, Trying to figure out what the concept story was from a` if its a concept record, whats the concept story POV?".
The concept (and Bob inferred as much in many interviews over the years,) initially it started as a concept record and there was a story outline of sorts. But as the making when on It because clear that the concept was defining what the band was in terms of characters, so the concept wasnt like say, Alices From the inside or Bat out of Hell where theres a clear story and outline but more like Billion Dollar Babies where it refined what the band could be in terms of optics and presentation.
Thats my take.
Honestly IMO the concept if there was one fizzled out by the time King ended.



On the other hand, your take is equally as pertinent. And I say this as Kiss is whatever the fans project upon it and wish them to be. and they seem fine with that.
Actually, my take is a pathetic attempt at trying to figure out the concept, the best I could. lol. Defining the band in terms of characters makes more sense, actually makes use of the songs in a thematic way instead of just a filler concept in the middle. God of Thunder, Great Expectations, King of the Nighttime world, Do you love me. Yes, I can see what you're getting at. Who knows? Maybe Beth could be seen as the downside to being these types of larger than life characters? Not always glamorous and human underneath it all.
Reading everything I could as we all have here over the years and decades, what Destroyer tried to do was elevate Kiss from the scrappy, niche theatrical garage band in leather and basic costumes to a more grandiouse Broadway version. Lycra replaced leather. Diamante sparkles and dragon boots replaced the basic concept (from the Destroyer outfits to the Dynasty was a pretty logical step of Kiss going BIGGER, /BETTER Aand more outrageous in terms of those uniform icon colours. As far away from what they were 5 years prior in 74. Dangerous, intense Rock show to broadway glam performance.

and again Destroyer was a total flop and bomb. commercially and critically. They already started planning RARO and getting Kramer and had started telling people Destroyer was a misstep and Ezrin pushed them too far HIS way. The Destroyer tour and set was stripped back pretty quickly


Then......Beth hit. and suddenly, they loved Bob again.
With Kiss, history is something that apparently be rewritten as it was ALL part of their plan
Yet ironically Destroyer is the only studio album that is anything close to be deemed a classic and is considered their best album outside of Alive! Not to mention the fact that Detroit, Shout, Beth and GOT are staple songs more so than anything on RARO or LG (outside of the title track on that album, because Paul thinks it's awesome).

As well as the phase that Gene and Paul went through with every new album ala it's a cross between such and such and Destroyer. It seems mentioning Destroyer was the sweet spot for the KISS Army into thinking that their new album was going to be great.
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Re: Ace confirms Bob Ezrin broke up the band

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I hear you. and yes it is.
I think, and this isnt fact , just me musing, had it been a complete commercial flop, would they still consider its merit creatively as a high point? Or dismiss it because it didnt sell as crap?
I ask this question because Kiss equate its value mostly on whether it was a success or not.

I recall ( edit to add, It was a MJJ podcat interview) re Gene being asked why the sound of LIU , songs, drums, sound etc didnt sound the same or as good as Creatures? and he replied, it was because all that time and effort into its sound didnt yield a hit record or tour so why put in that effort and cost/time again?

edit to add. so that pretty much says it all. its about what was successful or not, quality aside.
Iv often thought:
If Carnival of souls had somehow become this sleeper monster hit in 96/97 when it was quietly released and undermined the reunion in so far as the validity of what they were then selling when Bruce was put out to "promote " it, and Eric, (rightly ) was pissed off as he knew that volatile unreliability would combust quickly so he cut loose.
How would that effect Paul....and more so, the creative reflection on that record success.
Last edited by elleneff on Sun Mar 29, 2020 4:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ace confirms Bob Ezrin broke up the band

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elleneff wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:56 pm I hear you. and yes it is.
I think, and this isnt fact , just me musing, had it been a complete commercial flop, would they still consider its merit creatively as a high point? Or dismiss it because it didnt sell as crap?
I ask this question because Kiss equate its value mostly on whether it was a success or not.

I recall Gene being asked why the sound of LIU , songs, drums, sound etc didnt sound as good as Creatures? and he replied, it was because all that time and effort into its sound didnt yield a hit record or tour so why put in that effort and cost/time again?
That is such a piss poor response from Gene. Let's punish fans by not doing are best, you didn't buy the last record so screw, here is a half assed effort. Creatures didn't sell well because you just came back from experimenting with disco, pop, and prog lol.
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Re: Ace confirms Bob Ezrin broke up the band

Post by Forty Deuce »

elleneff wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:44 pm
Forty Deuce wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:21 pm
StraightThruTheHeart wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:01 pm
Forty Deuce wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:11 am Give me a break. Alice Cooper is still working with Ezrin, so is it at all possible that not all bands are meant to be together permanently. You are delusional if you think there weren't other issues within the bands that caused problems, but fans want to look at Ezrin as some sort of band killing bogeyman. Ace would not still be in KISS if Destroyer and The Elder never happened.
Bob working with these bands certainly didn't help. He puts no value on using the actual band members which has has clearly played a part in fractures within many of these bands.

So, you can't dismiss it out of hand...
TONS of producers do this. At the end of the day, it is nothing more than wanting to make the best album possible. Dick Wagner's solo on Sweet Pain blows away the Ace version.
Oh totally. Yes they do and yes Wagners solo and playing was superb and Ezrins composed solo on DRC is legendary as was the solo break in King. Destroyer was calculated to the smallest detail.

But do you think Bob pulls that crap with Deep PURPLE? nope. he knows they can deliver and listen to his ideas ( well now with Norse, maybe not so much if Blackmore was still there)
Iv often thought Cheap Trick , had they done an Ezrin album, would Bob shuffle players? or know , Bun, Tom, Robin and Rick can deliver exactly whats needed for the songs and album? ?
Exactly right - Deep Purple bury KISS musically, so anything Ezrin would want them to do, they would be able to do. There is no need for studio musicians.

Just like if Ezrin produced Whitesnake - Coverdale already has virtuosos in the band, so they can all do whatever is required. KISS is a far more limited band.
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Re: Ace confirms Bob Ezrin broke up the band

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elleneff wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:56 pm I hear you. and yes it is.
I think, and this isnt fact , just me musing, had it been a complete commercial flop, would they still consider its merit creatively as a high point? Or dismiss it because it didnt sell as crap?
I ask this question because Kiss equate its value mostly on whether it was a success or not.

I recall Gene being asked why the sound of LIU , songs, drums, sound etc didnt sound as good as Creatures? and he replied, it was because all that time and effort into its sound didnt yield a hit record or tour so why put in that effort and cost/time again?
I think you are right. If Destroyer came and went like The Elder, it might have fans who love it - but they would never try to repeat it again. It is sad that KISS makes every decision based on what they think will be a success vs. just doing whatever they want out of raw creative inspiration.
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Re: Ace confirms Bob Ezrin broke up the band

Post by ashorama »

Forty Deuce wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:50 pm
elleneff wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:39 pm
Going Blind wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:26 pm
elleneff wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:53 am
Going Blind wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:28 am
elleneff wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:52 am
metaldad wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:10 am
Not stating as fact of course.
BUT we know how Ezrin works and who he prefers to have as his session people no matter what project/ band. artist hes on.
Ezrin readily replaced great players in Coopers band like Buxton, Smith, Dunaway and Bruce etc

Let's not kid ourselves. None of the Alice Cooer Group--especially Buxton--were that good of players. Of them, Dunaway was passable. Buxton wrote some riffs but as a lead guitarist, he was barely above a high school-grade player. He was barely on B$B and not at all on MOL because he sucked so bad and had gotten even worse due to his heroin addiction. There's a reason why he wasn't asked to join the post-Alice group Billion Dollar Babies. Ezrin needed to replace him.
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Re: Ace confirms Bob Ezrin broke up the band

Post by jkiss »

Forty Deuce wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:40 am
jkiss wrote: Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:59 pm
Forty Deuce wrote: Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:14 pm I wish they stayed with Ezrin. Their output would be far better. I couldn't care less about the odd studio musician here and there. KISS was still doing that even after Ezrin, so what's the difference?
I think the difference was Bill & Bob took any real control away from them, during the process; including Paul & Gene. They all felt the sting of it ...I'm guessing it bothered Gene the least; however, Ace, Peter & Paul weren't very pleased on how it all went down (in the studio). And then Bill went ahead & designed + erected the entire "Destroyer" stage show without their input. Between that + Ezrin (also "Beth" - aside from Peter) ...they were all really unhappy with Bill. Although, little they could actually do about it; other than complain & make it crystal clear as possible.

:scratch:
I say good when it comes to Bob anyway. There are plenty of examples of KISS garbage when Paul and Gene were in control. I have no doubt in my mind that if Ezrin produced all their albums from Destroyer on, their musical output and legacy would be FAR better.
At the time "Destroyer" came-out ...I thought it was the best rock album I ever heard. I only had "ALIVE!" & hadn't got a hold of any other KISS album yet. I thought they miraculously 'improved' musically. And I thought it sounded just as good as "Billion Dollar Babies" by Alice Cooper ('the group') & not that I was properly aware of the fact that Bob Ezrin also produced it (& previous AC albums of which I thought were all really good, too). That was a detail I didn't really care about (was too young to care about that level of detail - very early teens) initially.

However, before long I started to hear from several other KISS fans that they thought Bob used Alice Cooper's new solo group on "Destroyer". And basically, replaced KISS on their own record ...also there was a then more recent book out on the Alice Cooper group chronicling the "Muscle of Love" era written by a press reporter (Bob Greene). The author exposed Bob Ezrin as to using studio musicians on those albums & the AC band was not happy with Bob Ezrin's methods, etc.

Anyway, after the dust settled Alice Cooper reemerged as a solo artist (circa 1975); as opposed to the original group. Shep Gordon & Vince took the "Alice Cooper" name for themselves (with Bob being a beneficiary as Producer) & also ditching the original members of the group, in the process. And fine by their record company Warner Bros. All that pissed-off most fans of the Alice Cooper band of course. Plus, many of those same fans had also since become KISS fans. A good number of KISS fans (that became 'former KISS fans') I first encountered were also originally Alice Cooper ('the group') fans & unhappy with Alice Cooper ('solo') transition. They knew all about Bob Ezrin & what the problems likely all were with him.

They blamed Bob in part for ruining & breaking-up the original group. And were now blaming Bob for making a KISS record that was a fraud, basically. I was fast-tracked about it from them, but didn't really care & also that was too advanced or complex for me to think overly much about. Plus, I just figured whatever Bob Ezrin works on is just going to sound way better & because he's that good of a producer. And those fans were simply a bunch of immature nerds (& they were, but I believe were more or less right ...only in hindsight or to say long after the fact).

So when "Rock & Roll Over" came-out & it once again sounded they had strangely reverted back to their previous overall sound (as like heard on the first three studio records) I was really puzzled. I had the first three KISS albums by then & did really love those ones as well, but I was actually 'expecting' a record that would be like "Destroyer" (Part II). And so for years, I thought it would've been a better choice to have kept working with Bob Ezrin. Simply put, I never wanted to accept Bob used studio musicians in any capacity on "Destroyer" (aside from orchestration, etc); although, in the '80's there would be confirmation of it on "Sweet Pain". And if one listens closely to the Alice Cooper albums circa 1975-1977 ...I believe you can hear several of those very same musicians on "Destroyer" (as like with guitarist Dick Wagner). Plus yes, I too am musically trained & can play various instruments (& well enough).

Anyhow, we all have evidence of this to some degree or another as fans. And what I want now ...is a confession from Bob about what was done 'exactly' on "Destroyer". I actually expect one, eventually. He cannot lie about this any longer ...fucking ridiculous. I do not want to wait until Bob dies & his producer contract with KISS is void ...only left to hear Paul's comments about what he really did. It’s time to celebrate the album for what it truly is & give us all the most accurate technical details on it. And Bob himself truthfully describe & detail exactly everything done; a wonderful illusion that needs be properly dissected & before he's gone. Bob (& Bill) fooled fans & now let the cat out of the bag as to precisely how so.

:?:
Last edited by jkiss on Sat Mar 28, 2020 3:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ace confirms Bob Ezrin broke up the band

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Now . I’ll say. I like Destroyer for what it is . But an album by Kiss it’s not. It’s Ezrin presents Kiss.
Iv maintained I don’t personally believe the band played much if at all on the finished Album.
They may have demoed. They may have laid down scratch parts.
But the end result sounds like:
Bass: Bob Ezrin and Prakash John. ( genes heavy picking style is very distinctive. Most of the bass here sounds fingered)
Rythem:some Paul. Mostly Steve hunter and Dick Wagner
Drums: some Criss. Mostly Allen Schwartzberg
Lead: ace copying or laying over Wagner/hunter/Ezrin written played parts.

But yes. After this time, Bob should come clean as to what’s on that record. He must have had some contractual ownership as Resurrected gave him carte Blanche to redo it.
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Re: Ace confirms Bob Ezrin broke up the band

Post by Tito »

elleneff wrote: Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:05 am Now . I’ll say. I like Destroyer for what it is . But an album by Kiss it’s not. It’s Ezrin presents Kiss.
Iv maintained I don’t personally believe the band played much if at all on the finished Album.
They may have demoed. They may have laid down scratch parts.
But the end result sounds like:
Bass: Bob Ezrin and Prakash John. ( genes heavy picking style is very distinctive. Most of the bass here sounds fingered)
Rythem:some Paul. Mostly Steve hunter and Dick Wagner
Drums: some Criss. Mostly Allen Schwartzberg
Lead: ace copying or laying over Wagner/hunter/Ezrin written played parts.

But yes. After this time, Bob should come clean as to what’s on that record. He must have had some contractual ownership as Resurrected gave him carte Blanche to redo it.
It is true and has always felt weird to me how different the actual musicianship (versus just the sound of the album) sounds like from the few albums immediately before and after.

Just listen to the drums on "Sweet Pain". Peter never, ever played anything remotely like that on any other album or any live recordings or footage.

I've always felt there's something more off to this album than we've been told. Ace and that one solo may have been the scapegoat for a lot more that went down.
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Re: Ace confirms Bob Ezrin broke up the band

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Tito wrote: Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:16 am
elleneff wrote: Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:05 am Now . I’ll say. I like Destroyer for what it is . But an album by Kiss it’s not. It’s Ezrin presents Kiss.
Iv maintained I don’t personally believe the band played much if at all on the finished Album.
They may have demoed. They may have laid down scratch parts.
But the end result sounds like:
Bass: Bob Ezrin and Prakash John. ( genes heavy picking style is very distinctive. Most of the bass here sounds fingered)
Rythem:some Paul. Mostly Steve hunter and Dick Wagner
Drums: some Criss. Mostly Allen Schwartzberg
Lead: ace copying or laying over Wagner/hunter/Ezrin written played parts.

But yes. After this time, Bob should come clean as to what’s on that record. He must have had some contractual ownership as Resurrected gave him carte Blanche to redo it.
It is true and has always felt weird to me how different the actual musicianship (versus just the sound of the album) sounds like from the few albums immediately before and after.

Just listen to the drums on "Sweet Pain". Peter never, ever played anything remotely like that on any other album or any live recordings or footage.

I've always felt there's something more off to this album than we've been told. Ace and that one solo may have been the scapegoat for a lot more that went down.
Well, I do love that Ezrin band, I love Lou Reed and old Cooper, both the original group (which had its own unique sound) and the solo band
And I love what Ezrin does . Not everything of course. But I admire his approach with certain artists. Even If I dont always like the result.
Its like, Hey, I love Cheap Trick, I love Ted Templeman. Put the two together and you get...oh...um, that Woke up with a Monster album should have been a slam dunk hit.

You listen to the Ezrin produced Reed stuff or that Cooper live stuff and you can hear the similarities in terms of the two guitars, the bass playing, the drums patterns and swing/fills. Its very slick super pro broadway of unmistakably, Wagner,Hunter. John and Schwartzberg etc.
Then you listen to Destroyer album and then the early destroyer shows. Its like two different completely bands playing those songs.

Then I think if the lines they doled out promoting Creatures in 82 when they lied over and over that it was Ace, he was practicing etc.
The reality was, it wasnt Ace, it was contractual so the label wouldnt find out cancel /renage on the contract based on 3 principals.
Mercury did and they did give them two option, cancel or reduce/recoup monies based on Gene and Pauls deception.

Rule one: Kiss lies.
Rule 2: if confronted with the truth, dismiss as hey does it really matter, once you thought it was Kiss? We have more gold albums, and more make up and heels than your Mommy etc...
Rule 3: See the lies doled out for Psycho Circus. hmm, it doesnt sound like them at all.... deny deny deny and lie. and repeat etc.

I have never thought Kiss had ever much to do with Destroyer. Sonically or via everything I read and absorbed over the decades. and its fairly simple equation.
If it doesnt sound like them, It isnt. Its that simple.

Does it detract from my occassional enjoyment of that Bob Ezrin present Kiss album? No.
But Iv never thought of it AS a Kiss album.
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Re: Ace confirms Bob Ezrin broke up the band

Post by Bruce »

Alright, so I'm curious, now: how much of Ezrin, if any at all, is in Revenge? Because it sounds very much like the band and the way you might expect for them to play. And yes I know about Wagner playing the solo on Every Time I Look at You!
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Re: Ace confirms Bob Ezrin broke up the band

Post by The Fox »

Tito wrote: Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:16 am
elleneff wrote: Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:05 am Now . I’ll say. I like Destroyer for what it is . But an album by Kiss it’s not. It’s Ezrin presents Kiss.
Iv maintained I don’t personally believe the band played much if at all on the finished Album.
They may have demoed. They may have laid down scratch parts.
But the end result sounds like:
Bass: Bob Ezrin and Prakash John. ( genes heavy picking style is very distinctive. Most of the bass here sounds fingered)
Rythem:some Paul. Mostly Steve hunter and Dick Wagner
Drums: some Criss. Mostly Allen Schwartzberg
Lead: ace copying or laying over Wagner/hunter/Ezrin written played parts.

But yes. After this time, Bob should come clean as to what’s on that record. He must have had some contractual ownership as Resurrected gave him carte Blanche to redo it.
It is true and has always felt weird to me how different the actual musicianship (versus just the sound of the album) sounds like from the few albums immediately before and after.

Just listen to the drums on "Sweet Pain". Peter never, ever played anything remotely like that on any other album or any live recordings or footage.

I've always felt there's something more off to this album than we've been told. Ace and that one solo may have been the scapegoat for a lot more that went down.
There was a fairly recent interview with Eddie Trunk where Ezrin swore that Peter played drums on all of Destroyer. Couldn't find it with a quick YouTube search but I listened to it a few years ago.

I'm in complete agreement with you on this. Pete sounded like a complete mess of a drummer on Dressed to Kill then out of nowhere was sounding like a monster drummer on Destroyer? I don't buy it. I wouldn't be surprised if Destroyer was similar to Dynasty and Psycho Circus where Pete's drum playing was on the record but was very limited.
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Re: Ace confirms Bob Ezrin broke up the band

Post by Tito »

elleneff wrote: Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:44 am Then you listen to Destroyer album and then the early destroyer shows. Its like two different completely bands playing those songs.
The Fox wrote: Sat Mar 28, 2020 3:31 am Pete sounded like a complete mess of a drummer on Dressed to Kill then out of nowhere was sounding like a monster drummer on Destroyer?

I think the most telling indeed is all the footage and recordings from the Destroyer tour itself. Even something as simple as "Do You Love Me", the drum intro alone sounds markedly different in feel from the way it's played on the album.
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