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TheSphinx wrote: ↑Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:14 am

Red_Walrus wrote: ↑Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:55 amI got a few questions.What would Animalize looked like if VV stayed. What songs off VV Invasion would have made it.I think it would have been huge. Pauls songs were great and he had the hit with "HOF" but if VV could have bolstered up Genes songs and also included some of his own it would have been killer. Anyone have a playlist of what could have been?

It would have been huge! "Animalize" basically shipped platinum due to the strength of "Lick It Up". Of course there was the 90 day window in place at the time. And it was certified Platinum on Dec 3, 1984 & released Sept 1, 1984.

"Lick It Up" was already past 1M in sales before "Animalize" came out. It's sad to be past 2M in sales.Lick It Up is far more beloved. It ranks in most Top 10 best Kiss albums of all time. Usually ranks as the best or 2nd best Kiss album from 1980-Forward (with it switching places with COTN) which is basically another Vinnie album.

Had Vinnie been around for that album and tour it is what they would have needed for them to be back on top.

I think without a doubt, they would have dropped most of the "classic songs" and they would have been playing mainly material from COTN, LICK IT UP and the new album. They wouldn't have had to rely on the past. Metal-N-Roll would have been here to stay.6 songs from "Lick It Up" were played during at least 44 of the shows on that tour. "All Hells Breaking Loose" 54. Exciter 44. Lick It Up, Young and Wasted, Gimme More, Fits Like a Glove all over 90 times.Also 4 songs from COTN were part of the regular set list: I Love It Loud, Creatures, War Machine, I Still Love You.They could have easily kept those 10 songs for the set list of Animalize and added 4-5 more from Animalize and just done "Rock & Roll Alnight" and maybe 1 other "classic Kiss" song. They could have also switched out "A Million To One" for "I Still Love You" and it would have gone over huge.

Animalize was a mediocre album with only one really strong song. Heavens On Fire. And HOF is still no "Lick It Up". Everyone knows Lick It Up. You look at how many times Kiss has been on late night, American Idol, you name it and usually "Lick It Up" is one of the songs they play.

And why did Asylum fail to ship platinum? Because Animalize wasn't very strong. Most albums are sold initially based on the one before it. There can be other factors but . .That's why reason Vinnie Vincent Invasion sold so well. Why it was the fastest selling album in the history of Chrysalis. And it only had one single/video to prmote it. Yet, by the time of "All Systems Go" release it was right around 500,000.

And the strength of "Invasion" of course led to far more publicity, bigger ad bugets etc. That's why "All Systems Go" was already at 500,000 units with 2 1/2 months. Of course, All Systems Go probably could have done 2-3X platinum had it not been for alot of the ineptitude at Chrysalis. If the album had come out when it was originally supposed to, Vinnie Vincent Invasion would have had the opening slot on the Aerosmith Permanent Vacation tour.

Also, Chrysalis management was so incompetent back then they thought it was too expensive to put out two different versions of the same album. They could have easily released a "Full Shredd" version of "All Systems Go" and a more radio friendly version. Which would have sold incredibly well and most Kiss/Vinnie fans would have picked up both versions. They could have kept Vinnie happy and also had more mainstream success. But not doing that. Getting Dana & Mark to go behind Vinnie's back and remix more "radio friendly" versions was not the thing to do.

And people go well, Vinnie didn't "officially" get RIAA awards. Or they bring up nonsense like where it placed highest on Billboard like that meant anything. Like Billboard figures were based on reality. All you've got to do is look at Smashes, Trashes & Hits to see how short it was on the charts etc but yet. And of course whether you had a video or a new single, tour all played a factor.People bring up Slaughter and their success.

Of course SITY was basically the third VVI release. Same record company. You name it. Mark & Dana from VVI. They had the entire Vinnie Vincent fan club list etc. All those street teamers were basically VVI fans. Why do you think Up All Night was on Dial MTV from Day 1 and stayed there. Slaughter had already been offered the opening tour slot on the "Hot In The Shade" tour before their album was even released. Why do you think Kiss did that?

Both VVI albums are said to be around 1M copies each. Which wouldn't be surprising with Stick It To Ya being close to 3M. Of course we will hear but soundscan doesn't have it doing such and such. People act like soundscan of today was the same as it was back in the early 90's when it didn't count sames from some of the largest places. Soundscan didn't count record club sales at all. And of course, alot of people got those Vinnie albums on CD during that time period.

Look how bad Asylum did. You didn't see it ship platinum. They spent more money on videos trying to push that album. That one got 3 and it still didn't sell well. And because Asylum did so poorly it went to the "two year plan" on Crazy Nights. The one thing that did help KISS during the time was they began to play up the nostalgia again. The makeup times were back thanks to eXposed being released prior to CN coming out. Crazy Nights can't be looked upon as any success at all. The tour was hemorrhaging money they couldn't even afford to keep paying a keyboard player to stay on tour with them. And they had to pay Ted Nugent decent bucks to help fill some seats.

So what came next? An album that is basically demos. One that had sold so poorly, Chrysalis did a survey during the HITS tour trying to figure out why people weren't buying KISS albums. Yes, "Forever" as a $1.50 cassingle sold well but it didn't move albums.

What was KISS left with? Going back to Vinnie. Revenge is around 1M in sales. Even if you go by the soundscan figures (which missed a ton of sales on its initial release and doesnt' account for record club sales), Revenge is still the best KISS selling album from 1989 forward. It's timing of course was hurt by grunge. The delay of the Revenge tour also hurt it subtantially. Using Faster Pussycat and some of the other opening acts on that tour certainly didn't help things. And there was no Slaughter or Winger to help put a ton of butts in the seats like KISS had on the HITS tour.

Revenge could have been substantially better if they had used more Vinnie songs on it. But at least Vinnie got KISS BACK on track just like he did with COTN. KISS' direction prior to Vinnie was not good (as evidenced by the early COTN sessions which wound up on "Killers"). And Bruce Kulick got set down because his playing wasn't up to snuff.

If anyone is honest, they will admit the 3 best KISS albums from 1977-on are COTN, LICK IT UP and REVENGE.

KISS is lucky the reunion happened because "Carnival Of Grunge" would have put them to playing 1,000 seaters


Whatever you want to say about Vinnie and his output since All Systems Go, the fact is undeniable that he was by far the 3rd most important songwriter to KISS (Behind Gene and Paul). That Metal-N-Roll put KISS back on top after KISS had buried themselves 3 feet under.

Maybe Vinnie can't save himself, but he sure saved KISS.

It's a shame Paul's ego was too huge and they were too cheap to pay Vinnie accordingly. They really cost themselves a ton of money they could have had from 1984 up to at least the mid 90's. They'd probably still own their publishing and wouldn't have had to sell that off just to keep afloat.

TheSphinx wrote: ↑Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:35 am

kissthat wrote: ↑Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:18 am Look who's back , nice to see you pop in Sphinxie.

Thanks. I'm going to pop back out now but I couldn't resist this one.

All Hail The Egyptian Warrior!

Red_Walrus wrote: ↑Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:55 am I got a few questions.

What would Animalize looked like if VV stayed. What songs off VV Invasion would have made it.

I think it would have been huge. Pauls songs were great and he had the hit with "HOF" but if VV could have bolstered up Genes songs and also included some of his own it would have been killer. Anyone have a playlist of what could have been?

Parallax1 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:14 pm

TheSphinx wrote: ↑Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:35 am

kissthat wrote: ↑Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:18 am Look who's back , nice to see you pop in Sphinxie.

Thanks. I'm going to pop back out now but I couldn't resist this one.

All Hail The Egyptian Warrior!

When I first started reading this thread I thought of you.
And then... there you are! Don't be a stranger!

TheSphinx wrote: ↑Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:18 am

Thunderous_Lay wrote: ↑Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:48 am

Where's Drago? wrote: ↑Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:57 pmMomentum.

Animalize already sold more than any other KISS album since Dynasty. But it was shit.

... yeahhh, I'm sorry but I stopped reading there.

Animalize may be flawed but next to Lick It Up, it's a f*ckin' masterpiece. It's almost as if the band got its testicles reattached after Lick It Up's pussified sound.

Also, both Animalize and Asylum went platinum in North America, while Cusano literally went nowhere, and to make matters worse, Slaughter's debut actually went multi-platinum.

It feels as if, I dunno... Cusano drags everything and everyone around him.

This is what you call #FakeNews.

Animalize shipped platinum based on the strength of Lick It Up.

Asylum has never been certified platinum. It was a huge failure. And brought about the "2 year plan". I would imagine it is now past 1M in sales.

And yes, Slaughter sold well, but that was basically the 3rd VVI album for them. Why do you think it did so well? Why do you think they were offered the opening tour slot on the HITS tour before their album had even come out.

EggFlip wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 12:14 am Animaiize went platinum on the strength of lick it up,???.. Haha no, that would make sense if lick it up had done as well as animalize. Animalize did well on the strength of heavens on fire MTV and radio. It was totally down to one song. I was around and kiss were not getting fans because of lick it up in fact still at the time you wore a lick it up shirt and you got crushed by motley crue, priest, maiden fans at school. You may as well have worn a Barry manilow shirt and have had the same reaction.

TheSphinx wrote: ↑Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:14 am

Red_Walrus wrote: ↑Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:55 amI got a few questions.What would Animalize looked like if VV stayed. What songs off VV Invasion would have made it.I think it would have been huge. Pauls songs were great and he had the hit with "HOF" but if VV could have bolstered up Genes songs and also included some of his own it would have been killer. Anyone have a playlist of what could have been?

It would have been huge! "Animalize" basically shipped platinum due to the strength of "Lick It Up". Of course there was the 90 day window in place at the time. And it was certified Platinum on Dec 3, 1984 & released Sept 1, 1984.

"Lick It Up" was already past 1M in sales before "Animalize" came out. It's sad to be past 2M in sales.Lick It Up is far more beloved. It ranks in most Top 10 best Kiss albums of all time. Usually ranks as the best or 2nd best Kiss album from 1980-Forward (with it switching places with COTN) which is basically another Vinnie album.

Had Vinnie been around for that album and tour it is what they would have needed for them to be back on top.

I think without a doubt, they would have dropped most of the "classic songs" and they would have been playing mainly material from COTN, LICK IT UP and the new album. They wouldn't have had to rely on the past. Metal-N-Roll would have been here to stay.6 songs from "Lick It Up" were played during at least 44 of the shows on that tour. "All Hells Breaking Loose" 54. Exciter 44. Lick It Up, Young and Wasted, Gimme More, Fits Like a Glove all over 90 times.Also 4 songs from COTN were part of the regular set list: I Love It Loud, Creatures, War Machine, I Still Love You.They could have easily kept those 10 songs for the set list of Animalize and added 4-5 more from Animalize and just done "Rock & Roll Alnight" and maybe 1 other "classic Kiss" song. They could have also switched out "A Million To One" for "I Still Love You" and it would have gone over huge.

Animalize was a mediocre album with only one really strong song. Heavens On Fire. And HOF is still no "Lick It Up". Everyone knows Lick It Up. You look at how many times Kiss has been on late night, American Idol, you name it and usually "Lick It Up" is one of the songs they play.

And why did Asylum fail to ship platinum? Because Animalize wasn't very strong. Most albums are sold initially based on the one before it. There can be other factors but . .That's why reason Vinnie Vincent Invasion sold so well. Why it was the fastest selling album in the history of Chrysalis. And it only had one single/video to prmote it. Yet, by the time of "All Systems Go" release it was right around 500,000.

And the strength of "Invasion" of course led to far more publicity, bigger ad bugets etc. That's why "All Systems Go" was already at 500,000 units with 2 1/2 months. Of course, All Systems Go probably could have done 2-3X platinum had it not been for alot of the ineptitude at Chrysalis. If the album had come out when it was originally supposed to, Vinnie Vincent Invasion would have had the opening slot on the Aerosmith Permanent Vacation tour.

Also, Chrysalis management was so incompetent back then they thought it was too expensive to put out two different versions of the same album. They could have easily released a "Full Shredd" version of "All Systems Go" and a more radio friendly version. Which would have sold incredibly well and most Kiss/Vinnie fans would have picked up both versions. They could have kept Vinnie happy and also had more mainstream success. But not doing that. Getting Dana & Mark to go behind Vinnie's back and remix more "radio friendly" versions was not the thing to do.

And people go well, Vinnie didn't "officially" get RIAA awards. Or they bring up nonsense like where it placed highest on Billboard like that meant anything. Like Billboard figures were based on reality. All you've got to do is look at Smashes, Trashes & Hits to see how short it was on the charts etc but yet. And of course whether you had a video or a new single, tour all played a factor.People bring up Slaughter and their success.

Of course SITY was basically the third VVI release. Same record company. You name it. Mark & Dana from VVI. They had the entire Vinnie Vincent fan club list etc. All those street teamers were basically VVI fans. Why do you think Up All Night was on Dial MTV from Day 1 and stayed there. Slaughter had already been offered the opening tour slot on the "Hot In The Shade" tour before their album was even released. Why do you think Kiss did that?

Both VVI albums are said to be around 1M copies each. Which wouldn't be surprising with Stick It To Ya being close to 3M. Of course we will hear but soundscan doesn't have it doing such and such. People act like soundscan of today was the same as it was back in the early 90's when it didn't count sames from some of the largest places. Soundscan didn't count record club sales at all. And of course, alot of people got those Vinnie albums on CD during that time period.

Look how bad Asylum did. You didn't see it ship platinum. They spent more money on videos trying to push that album. That one got 3 and it still didn't sell well. And because Asylum did so poorly it went to the "two year plan" on Crazy Nights. The one thing that did help KISS during the time was they began to play up the nostalgia again. The makeup times were back thanks to eXposed being released prior to CN coming out. Crazy Nights can't be looked upon as any success at all. The tour was hemorrhaging money they couldn't even afford to keep paying a keyboard player to stay on tour with them. And they had to pay Ted Nugent decent bucks to help fill some seats.

So what came next? An album that is basically demos. One that had sold so poorly, Chrysalis did a survey during the HITS tour trying to figure out why people weren't buying KISS albums. Yes, "Forever" as a $1.50 cassingle sold well but it didn't move albums.

What was KISS left with? Going back to Vinnie. Revenge is around 1M in sales. Even if you go by the soundscan figures (which missed a ton of sales on its initial release and doesnt' account for record club sales), Revenge is still the best KISS selling album from 1989 forward. It's timing of course was hurt by grunge. The delay of the Revenge tour also hurt it subtantially. Using Faster Pussycat and some of the other opening acts on that tour certainly didn't help things. And there was no Slaughter or Winger to help put a ton of butts in the seats like KISS had on the HITS tour.

Revenge could have been substantially better if they had used more Vinnie songs on it. But at least Vinnie got KISS BACK on track just like he did with COTN. KISS' direction prior to Vinnie was not good (as evidenced by the early COTN sessions which wound up on "Killers"). And Bruce Kulick got set down because his playing wasn't up to snuff.

If anyone is honest, they will admit the 3 best KISS albums from 1977-on are COTN, LICK IT UP and REVENGE.

KISS is lucky the reunion happened because "Carnival Of Grunge" would have put them to playing 1,000 seaters


Whatever you want to say about Vinnie and his output since All Systems Go, the fact is undeniable that he was by far the 3rd most important songwriter to KISS (Behind Gene and Paul). That Metal-N-Roll put KISS back on top after KISS had buried themselves 3 feet under.

Maybe Vinnie can't save himself, but he sure saved KISS.

It's a shame Paul's ego was too huge and they were too cheap to pay Vinnie accordingly. They really cost themselves a ton of money they could have had from 1984 up to at least the mid 90's. They'd probably still own their publishing and wouldn't have had to sell that off just to keep afloat.

LordThurisaz wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 12:46 am I love the Vinnie Vincent revisionist history around here; it's comical. It's about as made up as the stories in a Greek Mythology class.

Tito wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:18 am

LordThurisaz wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 12:46 am I love the Vinnie Vincent revisionist history around here; it's comical. It's about as made up as the stories in a Greek Mythology class.

I've never taken "Vinnie saved KISS" to mean anything but CREATIVELY. They might have struggled to sell tickets but COTN and LIU were certainly several steps in the right direction after the preceding couple of albums.

Stanley! You look so cute wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:29 am

Tito wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:18 am

LordThurisaz wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 12:46 am I love the Vinnie Vincent revisionist history around here; it's comical. It's about as made up as the stories in a Greek Mythology class.

I've never taken "Vinnie saved KISS" to mean anything but CREATIVELY. They might have struggled to sell tickets but COTN and LIU were certainly several steps in the right direction after the preceding couple of albums.

Paul and/or other writing partners would have got the band back on course without Vinnie. I don't believe any of the hype about Vinnie saving Kiss, even creatively. He was just lucky enough to be around when they were saving their own asses. It was Paul's drive and vision that pulled Kiss through the early 80s, Vinnie was just a passenger.

nfarend wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:22 am Animalize made me stop being a fan for years. When I bought the album I was heavily disappointed. Didn't even wanna go see the tour and lost interest for years.

Wiped Out 78 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:30 am

nfarend wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:22 am Animalize made me stop being a fan for years. When I bought the album I was heavily disappointed. Didn't even wanna go see the tour and lost interest for years.

Same here. Loved the Carr/Vincent lineup almost as much as the originals. When that fell apart, I was pretty much done.

C wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:35 am

Wiped Out 78 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:30 am

nfarend wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:22 am Animalize made me stop being a fan for years. When I bought the album I was heavily disappointed. Didn't even wanna go see the tour and lost interest for years.

Same here. Loved the Carr/Vincent lineup almost as much as the originals. When that fell apart, I was pretty much done.

That lineup gave them raw power, menacing dark vibes, here we are ready to kill, they became aggressive again, no one can stop them attitude

highvoltage1969 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:18 am

TheSphinx wrote: ↑Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:14 am

Red_Walrus wrote: ↑Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:55 amI got a few questions.What would Animalize looked like if VV stayed. What songs off VV Invasion would have made it.I think it would have been huge. Pauls songs were great and he had the hit with "HOF" but if VV could have bolstered up Genes songs and also included some of his own it would have been killer. Anyone have a playlist of what could have been?

It would have been huge! "Animalize" basically shipped platinum due to the strength of "Lick It Up". Of course there was the 90 day window in place at the time. And it was certified Platinum on Dec 3, 1984 & released Sept 1, 1984.

"Lick It Up" was already past 1M in sales before "Animalize" came out. It's sad to be past 2M in sales.Lick It Up is far more beloved. It ranks in most Top 10 best Kiss albums of all time. Usually ranks as the best or 2nd best Kiss album from 1980-Forward (with it switching places with COTN) which is basically another Vinnie album.

Had Vinnie been around for that album and tour it is what they would have needed for them to be back on top.

I think without a doubt, they would have dropped most of the "classic songs" and they would have been playing mainly material from COTN, LICK IT UP and the new album. They wouldn't have had to rely on the past. Metal-N-Roll would have been here to stay.6 songs from "Lick It Up" were played during at least 44 of the shows on that tour. "All Hells Breaking Loose" 54. Exciter 44. Lick It Up, Young and Wasted, Gimme More, Fits Like a Glove all over 90 times.Also 4 songs from COTN were part of the regular set list: I Love It Loud, Creatures, War Machine, I Still Love You.They could have easily kept those 10 songs for the set list of Animalize and added 4-5 more from Animalize and just done "Rock & Roll Alnight" and maybe 1 other "classic Kiss" song. They could have also switched out "A Million To One" for "I Still Love You" and it would have gone over huge.

Animalize was a mediocre album with only one really strong song. Heavens On Fire. And HOF is still no "Lick It Up". Everyone knows Lick It Up. You look at how many times Kiss has been on late night, American Idol, you name it and usually "Lick It Up" is one of the songs they play.

And why did Asylum fail to ship platinum? Because Animalize wasn't very strong. Most albums are sold initially based on the one before it. There can be other factors but . .That's why reason Vinnie Vincent Invasion sold so well. Why it was the fastest selling album in the history of Chrysalis. And it only had one single/video to prmote it. Yet, by the time of "All Systems Go" release it was right around 500,000.

And the strength of "Invasion" of course led to far more publicity, bigger ad bugets etc. That's why "All Systems Go" was already at 500,000 units with 2 1/2 months. Of course, All Systems Go probably could have done 2-3X platinum had it not been for alot of the ineptitude at Chrysalis. If the album had come out when it was originally supposed to, Vinnie Vincent Invasion would have had the opening slot on the Aerosmith Permanent Vacation tour.

Also, Chrysalis management was so incompetent back then they thought it was too expensive to put out two different versions of the same album. They could have easily released a "Full Shredd" version of "All Systems Go" and a more radio friendly version. Which would have sold incredibly well and most Kiss/Vinnie fans would have picked up both versions. They could have kept Vinnie happy and also had more mainstream success. But not doing that. Getting Dana & Mark to go behind Vinnie's back and remix more "radio friendly" versions was not the thing to do.

And people go well, Vinnie didn't "officially" get RIAA awards. Or they bring up nonsense like where it placed highest on Billboard like that meant anything. Like Billboard figures were based on reality. All you've got to do is look at Smashes, Trashes & Hits to see how short it was on the charts etc but yet. And of course whether you had a video or a new single, tour all played a factor.People bring up Slaughter and their success.

Of course SITY was basically the third VVI release. Same record company. You name it. Mark & Dana from VVI. They had the entire Vinnie Vincent fan club list etc. All those street teamers were basically VVI fans. Why do you think Up All Night was on Dial MTV from Day 1 and stayed there. Slaughter had already been offered the opening tour slot on the "Hot In The Shade" tour before their album was even released. Why do you think Kiss did that?

Both VVI albums are said to be around 1M copies each. Which wouldn't be surprising with Stick It To Ya being close to 3M. Of course we will hear but soundscan doesn't have it doing such and such. People act like soundscan of today was the same as it was back in the early 90's when it didn't count sames from some of the largest places. Soundscan didn't count record club sales at all. And of course, alot of people got those Vinnie albums on CD during that time period.

Look how bad Asylum did. You didn't see it ship platinum. They spent more money on videos trying to push that album. That one got 3 and it still didn't sell well. And because Asylum did so poorly it went to the "two year plan" on Crazy Nights. The one thing that did help KISS during the time was they began to play up the nostalgia again. The makeup times were back thanks to eXposed being released prior to CN coming out. Crazy Nights can't be looked upon as any success at all. The tour was hemorrhaging money they couldn't even afford to keep paying a keyboard player to stay on tour with them. And they had to pay Ted Nugent decent bucks to help fill some seats.

So what came next? An album that is basically demos. One that had sold so poorly, Chrysalis did a survey during the HITS tour trying to figure out why people weren't buying KISS albums. Yes, "Forever" as a $1.50 cassingle sold well but it didn't move albums.

What was KISS left with? Going back to Vinnie. Revenge is around 1M in sales. Even if you go by the soundscan figures (which missed a ton of sales on its initial release and doesnt' account for record club sales), Revenge is still the best KISS selling album from 1989 forward. It's timing of course was hurt by grunge. The delay of the Revenge tour also hurt it subtantially. Using Faster Pussycat and some of the other opening acts on that tour certainly didn't help things. And there was no Slaughter or Winger to help put a ton of butts in the seats like KISS had on the HITS tour.

Revenge could have been substantially better if they had used more Vinnie songs on it. But at least Vinnie got KISS BACK on track just like he did with COTN. KISS' direction prior to Vinnie was not good (as evidenced by the early COTN sessions which wound up on "Killers"). And Bruce Kulick got set down because his playing wasn't up to snuff.

If anyone is honest, they will admit the 3 best KISS albums from 1977-on are COTN, LICK IT UP and REVENGE.

KISS is lucky the reunion happened because "Carnival Of Grunge" would have put them to playing 1,000 seaters


Whatever you want to say about Vinnie and his output since All Systems Go, the fact is undeniable that he was by far the 3rd most important songwriter to KISS (Behind Gene and Paul). That Metal-N-Roll put KISS back on top after KISS had buried themselves 3 feet under.

Maybe Vinnie can't save himself, but he sure saved KISS.

It's a shame Paul's ego was too huge and they were too cheap to pay Vinnie accordingly. They really cost themselves a ton of money they could have had from 1984 up to at least the mid 90's. They'd probably still own their publishing and wouldn't have had to sell that off just to keep afloat.

Welcome back!

EggFlip wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:07 am The term fastest selling album in the history of chrysalis means nothing. What time span. It could have been one guy bought it the second it hit the shops. That would also mean it's the fastest selling album in the history of chrysalis. It's a record company spin term they used to sell the album just like vv said he didn't have mark slaughters phone number or he would have hired him over robert and just like he said he ran his pink Jackson under the tour bus when jn fact he just had it resprayed

Stanley! You look so cute wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:12 am Vinnie's guitar playing was already sounding dated by the time Animalize came out, and he was a terrible fit for the band live. All of the fans I knew at the time hated his playing and said he ruined the LIU tour. If you listen to any recordings from that tour now, Vinnie's playing sounds absolutely ridiculous.

Overall I prefer Animalize to Lick It Up. Under The Gun, Thrills In The Night and Heaven's on Fire are way stronger than anything off LIU, and with Bruce onboard they had a much more tasteful and appropriate guitarist for the tour.

The Vinnie era is just a blip in Kisstory that a lot of us would rather forget.

EggFlip wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:04 am In reply to the sphinx staying chrysalis were incompetent well they certainly were not incompetent in selling millions of slaughter albums with the same team.

LordThurisaz wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:38 am I highly doubt his dreck sold faster than Billy Idol.

TheSphinx wrote: ↑Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:14 am

Red_Walrus wrote: ↑Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:55 amI got a few questions.What would Animalize looked like if VV stayed. What songs off VV Invasion would have made it.I think it would have been huge. Pauls songs were great and he had the hit with "HOF" but if VV could have bolstered up Genes songs and also included some of his own it would have been killer. Anyone have a playlist of what could have been?

So what came next? An album that is basically demos. One that had sold so poorly, Chrysalis did a survey during the HITS tour trying to figure out why people weren't buying KISS albums. Yes, "Forever" as a $1.50 cassingle sold well but it didn't move albums.

PterCriss wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:09 pm

TheSphinx wrote: ↑Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:14 am

Red_Walrus wrote: ↑Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:55 amI got a few questions.What would Animalize looked like if VV stayed. What songs off VV Invasion would have made it.I think it would have been huge. Pauls songs were great and he had the hit with "HOF" but if VV could have bolstered up Genes songs and also included some of his own it would have been killer. Anyone have a playlist of what could have been?

So what came next? An album that is basically demos. One that had sold so poorly, Chrysalis did a survey during the HITS tour trying to figure out why people weren't buying KISS albums. Yes, "Forever" as a $1.50 cassingle sold well but it didn't move albums.

Actually - every Kiss fan knows Crazy Nights followed Asylum not HITS like you so easy revised and inserted. We also know Vinnie lost his mind and went AWOL. So your timeline and comments should end when Vinnie went crazy.

Also you might want to include talking about Smashed Thrashes and Hits and how it sold 2 million pr 2.5 million and has Let's Put the X in Sex as a single. I don't think anyone has figured out how that album sold so much and it had nothing to do with Vinnie. By the time 1987 rolled around Vinnie was an after thought in Kiss. If anyone talked about anyone coming back it was always - when is Ace coming back, not Vinnie.

TheSphinx wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:53 pm

PterCriss wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:09 pm

TheSphinx wrote: ↑Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:14 am

Red_Walrus wrote: ↑Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:55 amI got a few questions.What would Animalize looked like if VV stayed. What songs off VV Invasion would have made it.I think it would have been huge. Pauls songs were great and he had the hit with "HOF" but if VV could have bolstered up Genes songs and also included some of his own it would have been killer. Anyone have a playlist of what could have been?

So what came next? An album that is basically demos. One that had sold so poorly, Chrysalis did a survey during the HITS tour trying to figure out why people weren't buying KISS albums. Yes, "Forever" as a $1.50 cassingle sold well but it didn't move albums.

Actually - every Kiss fan knows Crazy Nights followed Asylum not HITS like you so easy revised and inserted. We also know Vinnie lost his mind and went AWOL. So your timeline and comments should end when Vinnie went crazy.

Also you might want to include talking about Smashed Thrashes and Hits and how it sold 2 million pr 2.5 million and has Let's Put the X in Sex as a single. I don't think anyone has figured out how that album sold so much and it had nothing to do with Vinnie. By the time 1987 rolled around Vinnie was an after thought in Kiss. If anyone talked about anyone coming back it was always - when is Ace coming back, not Vinnie.

I have no idea what you are talking about. The only thing I edited in that post was Invasion was the fastest selling DEBUT album. I put in debut.


Look how bad Asylum did. You didn't see it ship platinum. They spent more money on videos trying to push that album. That one got 3 and it still didn't sell well. And because Asylum did so poorly it went to the "two year plan" on Crazy Nights. The one thing that did help KISS during the time was they began to play up the nostalgia again. The makeup times were back thanks to eXposed being released prior to CN coming out. Crazy Nights can't be looked upon as any success at all. The tour was hemorrhaging money they couldn't even afford to keep paying a keyboard player to stay on tour with them. And they had to pay Ted Nugent decent bucks to help fill some seats.

So what came next? An album that is basically demos. One that had sold so poorly, Chrysalis did a survey during the HITS tour trying to figure out why people weren't buying KISS albums. Yes, "Forever" as a $1.50 cassingle sold well but it didn't move albums.


Other people have quoted it and you can see its the same in their quotes of my post. So what are you lying about?

I've also mocked people for using Billboard's top charting #'s and length as if it proves anything when ST&H was their biggest seller but you wouldn't know that from its chart history. It's sales shouldn't have come as any big surprise. Kiss was pushing the makeup past (since Exposed). It was a new Greatest Hits cd. Cd's had been taking off. It was a great time for people to get a Greatest Hits collection of KISS with old and newer songs like I Love It Loud, Lick It Up.

How long did it take Ace to get a record deal? If Eddie Trunk hadn't given him one would he have ever gotten one?
Ace was relying on Vinnie just like KISS. I mean Ace was playing "Back On The Streets". Then Ace had to rely on a Paul Stanley song. Pretty pathetic of him to record "Hide Your Heart". Ace's most known single from his comeback "Into The Night". One more song Ace didn't write just like his hit NY Groove. Then one of his singles was "Do Ya". A hit songwriting machine he was.

TheSphinx wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:53 pm

PterCriss wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:09 pm

TheSphinx wrote: ↑Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:14 am

Red_Walrus wrote: ↑Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:55 amI got a few questions.What would Animalize looked like if VV stayed. What songs off VV Invasion would have made it.I think it would have been huge. Pauls songs were great and he had the hit with "HOF" but if VV could have bolstered up Genes songs and also included some of his own it would have been killer. Anyone have a playlist of what could have been?

So what came next? An album that is basically demos. One that had sold so poorly, Chrysalis did a survey during the HITS tour trying to figure out why people weren't buying KISS albums. Yes, "Forever" as a $1.50 cassingle sold well but it didn't move albums.

Actually - every Kiss fan knows Crazy Nights followed Asylum not HITS like you so easy revised and inserted. We also know Vinnie lost his mind and went AWOL. So your timeline and comments should end when Vinnie went crazy.

Also you might want to include talking about Smashed Thrashes and Hits and how it sold 2 million pr 2.5 million and has Let's Put the X in Sex as a single. I don't think anyone has figured out how that album sold so much and it had nothing to do with Vinnie. By the time 1987 rolled around Vinnie was an after thought in Kiss. If anyone talked about anyone coming back it was always - when is Ace coming back, not Vinnie.

I have no idea what you are talking about. The only thing I edited in that post was Invasion was the fastest selling DEBUT album. I put in debut.


Look how bad Asylum did. You didn't see it ship platinum. They spent more money on videos trying to push that album. That one got 3 and it still didn't sell well. And because Asylum did so poorly it went to the "two year plan" on Crazy Nights. The one thing that did help KISS during the time was they began to play up the nostalgia again. The makeup times were back thanks to eXposed being released prior to CN coming out. Crazy Nights can't be looked upon as any success at all. The tour was hemorrhaging money they couldn't even afford to keep paying a keyboard player to stay on tour with them. And they had to pay Ted Nugent decent bucks to help fill some seats.

So what came next? An album that is basically demos. One that had sold so poorly, Chrysalis did a survey during the HITS tour trying to figure out why people weren't buying KISS albums. Yes, "Forever" as a $1.50 cassingle sold well but it didn't move albums.


Other people have quoted it and you can see its the same in their quotes of my post. So what are you lying about?

I've also mocked people for using Billboard's top charting #'s and length as if it proves anything when ST&H was their biggest seller but you wouldn't know that from its chart history. It's sales shouldn't have come as any big surprise. Kiss was pushing the makeup past (since Exposed). It was a new Greatest Hits cd. Cd's had been taking off. It was a great time for people to get a Greatest Hits collection of KISS with old and newer songs like I Love It Loud, Lick It Up.

How long did it take Ace to get a record deal? If Eddie Trunk hadn't given him one would he have ever gotten one?
Ace was relying on Vinnie just like KISS. I mean Ace was playing "Back On The Streets". Then Ace had to rely on a Paul Stanley song. Pretty pathetic of him to record "Hide Your Heart". Ace's most known single from his comeback "Into The Night". One more song Ace didn't write just like his hit NY Groove. Then one of his singles was "Do Ya". A hit songwriting machine he was.

TheSphinx wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:53 pm

PterCriss wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:09 pm

TheSphinx wrote: ↑Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:14 am

Red_Walrus wrote: ↑Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:55 amI got a few questions.What would Animalize looked like if VV stayed. What songs off VV Invasion would have made it.I think it would have been huge. Pauls songs were great and he had the hit with "HOF" but if VV could have bolstered up Genes songs and also included some of his own it would have been killer. Anyone have a playlist of what could have been?

So what came next? An album that is basically demos. One that had sold so poorly, Chrysalis did a survey during the HITS tour trying to figure out why people weren't buying KISS albums. Yes, "Forever" as a $1.50 cassingle sold well but it didn't move albums.

Actually - every Kiss fan knows Crazy Nights followed Asylum not HITS like you so easy revised and inserted. We also know Vinnie lost his mind and went AWOL. So your timeline and comments should end when Vinnie went crazy.

Also you might want to include talking about Smashed Thrashes and Hits and how it sold 2 million pr 2.5 million and has Let's Put the X in Sex as a single. I don't think anyone has figured out how that album sold so much and it had nothing to do with Vinnie. By the time 1987 rolled around Vinnie was an after thought in Kiss. If anyone talked about anyone coming back it was always - when is Ace coming back, not Vinnie.

I have no idea what you are talking about. The only thing I edited in that post was Invasion was the fastest selling DEBUT album. I put in debut.


Look how bad Asylum did. You didn't see it ship platinum. They spent more money on videos trying to push that album. That one got 3 and it still didn't sell well. And because Asylum did so poorly it went to the "two year plan" on Crazy Nights. The one thing that did help KISS during the time was they began to play up the nostalgia again. The makeup times were back thanks to eXposed being released prior to CN coming out. Crazy Nights can't be looked upon as any success at all. The tour was hemorrhaging money they couldn't even afford to keep paying a keyboard player to stay on tour with them. And they had to pay Ted Nugent decent bucks to help fill some seats.

So what came next? An album that is basically demos. One that had sold so poorly, Chrysalis did a survey during the HITS tour trying to figure out why people weren't buying KISS albums. Yes, "Forever" as a $1.50 cassingle sold well but it didn't move albums.


Other people have quoted it and you can see its the same in their quotes of my post. So what are you lying about?

I've also mocked people for using Billboard's top charting #'s and length as if it proves anything when ST&H was their biggest seller but you wouldn't know that from its chart history. It's sales shouldn't have come as any big surprise. Kiss was pushing the makeup past (since Exposed). It was a new Greatest Hits cd. Cd's had been taking off. It was a great time for people to get a Greatest Hits collection of KISS with old and newer songs like I Love It Loud, Lick It Up.

How long did it take Ace to get a record deal? If Eddie Trunk hadn't given him one would he have ever gotten one?
Ace was relying on Vinnie just like KISS. I mean Ace was playing "Back On The Streets". Then Ace had to rely on a Paul Stanley song. Pretty pathetic of him to record "Hide Your Heart". Ace's most known single from his comeback "Into The Night". One more song Ace didn't write just like his hit NY Groove. Then one of his singles was "Do Ya". A hit songwriting machine he was.

nibbler1982 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:16 pm

TheSphinx wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:53 pm

PterCriss wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:09 pm

TheSphinx wrote: ↑Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:14 am

Red_Walrus wrote: ↑Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:55 amI got a few questions.What would Animalize looked like if VV stayed. What songs off VV Invasion would have made it.I think it would have been huge. Pauls songs were great and he had the hit with "HOF" but if VV could have bolstered up Genes songs and also included some of his own it would have been killer. Anyone have a playlist of what could have been?

So what came next? An album that is basically demos. One that had sold so poorly, Chrysalis did a survey during the HITS tour trying to figure out why people weren't buying KISS albums. Yes, "Forever" as a $1.50 cassingle sold well but it didn't move albums.

Actually - every Kiss fan knows Crazy Nights followed Asylum not HITS like you so easy revised and inserted. We also know Vinnie lost his mind and went AWOL. So your timeline and comments should end when Vinnie went crazy.

Also you might want to include talking about Smashed Thrashes and Hits and how it sold 2 million pr 2.5 million and has Let's Put the X in Sex as a single. I don't think anyone has figured out how that album sold so much and it had nothing to do with Vinnie. By the time 1987 rolled around Vinnie was an after thought in Kiss. If anyone talked about anyone coming back it was always - when is Ace coming back, not Vinnie.

I have no idea what you are talking about. The only thing I edited in that post was Invasion was the fastest selling DEBUT album. I put in debut.


Look how bad Asylum did. You didn't see it ship platinum. They spent more money on videos trying to push that album. That one got 3 and it still didn't sell well. And because Asylum did so poorly it went to the "two year plan" on Crazy Nights. The one thing that did help KISS during the time was they began to play up the nostalgia again. The makeup times were back thanks to eXposed being released prior to CN coming out. Crazy Nights can't be looked upon as any success at all. The tour was hemorrhaging money they couldn't even afford to keep paying a keyboard player to stay on tour with them. And they had to pay Ted Nugent decent bucks to help fill some seats.

So what came next? An album that is basically demos. One that had sold so poorly, Chrysalis did a survey during the HITS tour trying to figure out why people weren't buying KISS albums. Yes, "Forever" as a $1.50 cassingle sold well but it didn't move albums.


Other people have quoted it and you can see its the same in their quotes of my post. So what are you lying about?

I've also mocked people for using Billboard's top charting #'s and length as if it proves anything when ST&H was their biggest seller but you wouldn't know that from its chart history. It's sales shouldn't have come as any big surprise. Kiss was pushing the makeup past (since Exposed). It was a new Greatest Hits cd. Cd's had been taking off. It was a great time for people to get a Greatest Hits collection of KISS with old and newer songs like I Love It Loud, Lick It Up.

How long did it take Ace to get a record deal? If Eddie Trunk hadn't given him one would he have ever gotten one?
Ace was relying on Vinnie just like KISS. I mean Ace was playing "Back On The Streets". Then Ace had to rely on a Paul Stanley song. Pretty pathetic of him to record "Hide Your Heart". Ace's most known single from his comeback "Into The Night". One more song Ace didn't write just like his hit NY Groove. Then one of his singles was "Do Ya". A hit songwriting machine he was.

YOOOOOOOOOOOOOO MY BROTHER SPHINXIE!!!!!!!!

Where the hell you been my man?!?!?!?

Brah...it’s soooo good to see your name pop up on the boards. I couldn’t believe my eyes. I sincerely and genuinely hope all is well with you and yours. It’s so good to have you back.

Our donnybrooks are what legends are made of. The nice thing is the threads never got locked. Don’t get me wrong...those were some dogfights and we did sling a little mud here and there but we always kept a level of civility to it. Good times. Good times.

There’s a new guy on here who shall remain nameless that does remind me of you. He’s got your tenacity for sure...but none of your intelligence and style. He always has me thinking about the good ol’ days.

I tip my hat to the return of a most worthy opponent.

(Now back to our regularly scheduled program)

PterCriss wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:19 pm

nibbler1982 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:16 pm

TheSphinx wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:53 pm

PterCriss wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:09 pm

TheSphinx wrote: ↑Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:14 am

Red_Walrus wrote: ↑Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:55 amI got a few questions.What would Animalize looked like if VV stayed. What songs off VV Invasion would have made it.I think it would have been huge. Pauls songs were great and he had the hit with "HOF" but if VV could have bolstered up Genes songs and also included some of his own it would have been killer. Anyone have a playlist of what could have been?

So what came next? An album that is basically demos. One that had sold so poorly, Chrysalis did a survey during the HITS tour trying to figure out why people weren't buying KISS albums. Yes, "Forever" as a $1.50 cassingle sold well but it didn't move albums.

Actually - every Kiss fan knows Crazy Nights followed Asylum not HITS like you so easy revised and inserted. We also know Vinnie lost his mind and went AWOL. So your timeline and comments should end when Vinnie went crazy.

Also you might want to include talking about Smashed Thrashes and Hits and how it sold 2 million pr 2.5 million and has Let's Put the X in Sex as a single. I don't think anyone has figured out how that album sold so much and it had nothing to do with Vinnie. By the time 1987 rolled around Vinnie was an after thought in Kiss. If anyone talked about anyone coming back it was always - when is Ace coming back, not Vinnie.

I have no idea what you are talking about. The only thing I edited in that post was Invasion was the fastest selling DEBUT album. I put in debut.


Look how bad Asylum did. You didn't see it ship platinum. They spent more money on videos trying to push that album. That one got 3 and it still didn't sell well. And because Asylum did so poorly it went to the "two year plan" on Crazy Nights. The one thing that did help KISS during the time was they began to play up the nostalgia again. The makeup times were back thanks to eXposed being released prior to CN coming out. Crazy Nights can't be looked upon as any success at all. The tour was hemorrhaging money they couldn't even afford to keep paying a keyboard player to stay on tour with them. And they had to pay Ted Nugent decent bucks to help fill some seats.

So what came next? An album that is basically demos. One that had sold so poorly, Chrysalis did a survey during the HITS tour trying to figure out why people weren't buying KISS albums. Yes, "Forever" as a $1.50 cassingle sold well but it didn't move albums.


Other people have quoted it and you can see its the same in their quotes of my post. So what are you lying about?

I've also mocked people for using Billboard's top charting #'s and length as if it proves anything when ST&H was their biggest seller but you wouldn't know that from its chart history. It's sales shouldn't have come as any big surprise. Kiss was pushing the makeup past (since Exposed). It was a new Greatest Hits cd. Cd's had been taking off. It was a great time for people to get a Greatest Hits collection of KISS with old and newer songs like I Love It Loud, Lick It Up.

How long did it take Ace to get a record deal? If Eddie Trunk hadn't given him one would he have ever gotten one?
Ace was relying on Vinnie just like KISS. I mean Ace was playing "Back On The Streets". Then Ace had to rely on a Paul Stanley song. Pretty pathetic of him to record "Hide Your Heart". Ace's most known single from his comeback "Into The Night". One more song Ace didn't write just like his hit NY Groove. Then one of his singles was "Do Ya". A hit songwriting machine he was.

YOOOOOOOOOOOOOO MY BROTHER SPHINXIE!!!!!!!!

Where the hell you been my man?!?!?!?

Brah...it’s soooo good to see your name pop up on the boards. I couldn’t believe my eyes. I sincerely and genuinely hope all is well with you and yours. It’s so good to have you back.

Our donnybrooks are what legends are made of. The nice thing is the threads never got locked. Don’t get me wrong...those were some dogfights and we did sling a little mud here and there but we always kept a level of civility to it. Good times. Good times.

There’s a new guy on here who shall remain nameless that does remind me of you. He’s got your tenacity for sure...but none of your intelligence and style. He always has me thinking about the good ol’ days.

I tip my hat to the return of a most worthy opponent.

(Now back to our regularly scheduled program)

I don't swing that way but glad my tenacity reminds you of your Broke Back Mountain days with Sphinxy. Lol.

nibbler1982 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:22 pm

PterCriss wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:19 pm

nibbler1982 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:16 pm

TheSphinx wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:53 pm

PterCriss wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:09 pm

TheSphinx wrote: ↑Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:14 am

Red_Walrus wrote: ↑Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:55 amI got a few questions.What would Animalize looked like if VV stayed. What songs off VV Invasion would have made it.I think it would have been huge. Pauls songs were great and he had the hit with "HOF" but if VV could have bolstered up Genes songs and also included some of his own it would have been killer. Anyone have a playlist of what could have been?

So what came next? An album that is basically demos. One that had sold so poorly, Chrysalis did a survey during the HITS tour trying to figure out why people weren't buying KISS albums. Yes, "Forever" as a $1.50 cassingle sold well but it didn't move albums.

Actually - every Kiss fan knows Crazy Nights followed Asylum not HITS like you so easy revised and inserted. We also know Vinnie lost his mind and went AWOL. So your timeline and comments should end when Vinnie went crazy.

Also you might want to include talking about Smashed Thrashes and Hits and how it sold 2 million pr 2.5 million and has Let's Put the X in Sex as a single. I don't think anyone has figured out how that album sold so much and it had nothing to do with Vinnie. By the time 1987 rolled around Vinnie was an after thought in Kiss. If anyone talked about anyone coming back it was always - when is Ace coming back, not Vinnie.

I have no idea what you are talking about. The only thing I edited in that post was Invasion was the fastest selling DEBUT album. I put in debut.


Look how bad Asylum did. You didn't see it ship platinum. They spent more money on videos trying to push that album. That one got 3 and it still didn't sell well. And because Asylum did so poorly it went to the "two year plan" on Crazy Nights. The one thing that did help KISS during the time was they began to play up the nostalgia again. The makeup times were back thanks to eXposed being released prior to CN coming out. Crazy Nights can't be looked upon as any success at all. The tour was hemorrhaging money they couldn't even afford to keep paying a keyboard player to stay on tour with them. And they had to pay Ted Nugent decent bucks to help fill some seats.

So what came next? An album that is basically demos. One that had sold so poorly, Chrysalis did a survey during the HITS tour trying to figure out why people weren't buying KISS albums. Yes, "Forever" as a $1.50 cassingle sold well but it didn't move albums.


Other people have quoted it and you can see its the same in their quotes of my post. So what are you lying about?

I've also mocked people for using Billboard's top charting #'s and length as if it proves anything when ST&H was their biggest seller but you wouldn't know that from its chart history. It's sales shouldn't have come as any big surprise. Kiss was pushing the makeup past (since Exposed). It was a new Greatest Hits cd. Cd's had been taking off. It was a great time for people to get a Greatest Hits collection of KISS with old and newer songs like I Love It Loud, Lick It Up.

How long did it take Ace to get a record deal? If Eddie Trunk hadn't given him one would he have ever gotten one?
Ace was relying on Vinnie just like KISS. I mean Ace was playing "Back On The Streets". Then Ace had to rely on a Paul Stanley song. Pretty pathetic of him to record "Hide Your Heart". Ace's most known single from his comeback "Into The Night". One more song Ace didn't write just like his hit NY Groove. Then one of his singles was "Do Ya". A hit songwriting machine he was.

YOOOOOOOOOOOOOO MY BROTHER SPHINXIE!!!!!!!!

Where the hell you been my man?!?!?!?

Brah...it’s soooo good to see your name pop up on the boards. I couldn’t believe my eyes. I sincerely and genuinely hope all is well with you and yours. It’s so good to have you back.

Our donnybrooks are what legends are made of. The nice thing is the threads never got locked. Don’t get me wrong...those were some dogfights and we did sling a little mud here and there but we always kept a level of civility to it. Good times. Good times.

There’s a new guy on here who shall remain nameless that does remind me of you. He’s got your tenacity for sure...but none of your intelligence and style. He always has me thinking about the good ol’ days.

I tip my hat to the return of a most worthy opponent.

(Now back to our regularly scheduled program)

I don't swing that way but glad my tenacity reminds you of your Broke Back Mountain days with Sphinxy. Lol.

Who was talking about you and what does Broke Back Mountain have to do with this conversation?

PterCriss wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:31 pm

nibbler1982 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:22 pm

PterCriss wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:19 pm

nibbler1982 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:16 pm

TheSphinx wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:53 pm

PterCriss wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:09 pm

TheSphinx wrote: ↑Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:14 am

Red_Walrus wrote: ↑Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:55 amI got a few questions.What would Animalize looked like if VV stayed. What songs off VV Invasion would have made it.I think it would have been huge. Pauls songs were great and he had the hit with "HOF" but if VV could have bolstered up Genes songs and also included some of his own it would have been killer. Anyone have a playlist of what could have been?

So what came next? An album that is basically demos. One that had sold so poorly, Chrysalis did a survey during the HITS tour trying to figure out why people weren't buying KISS albums. Yes, "Forever" as a $1.50 cassingle sold well but it didn't move albums.

Actually - every Kiss fan knows Crazy Nights followed Asylum not HITS like you so easy revised and inserted. We also know Vinnie lost his mind and went AWOL. So your timeline and comments should end when Vinnie went crazy.

Also you might want to include talking about Smashed Thrashes and Hits and how it sold 2 million pr 2.5 million and has Let's Put the X in Sex as a single. I don't think anyone has figured out how that album sold so much and it had nothing to do with Vinnie. By the time 1987 rolled around Vinnie was an after thought in Kiss. If anyone talked about anyone coming back it was always - when is Ace coming back, not Vinnie.

I have no idea what you are talking about. The only thing I edited in that post was Invasion was the fastest selling DEBUT album. I put in debut.


Look how bad Asylum did. You didn't see it ship platinum. They spent more money on videos trying to push that album. That one got 3 and it still didn't sell well. And because Asylum did so poorly it went to the "two year plan" on Crazy Nights. The one thing that did help KISS during the time was they began to play up the nostalgia again. The makeup times were back thanks to eXposed being released prior to CN coming out. Crazy Nights can't be looked upon as any success at all. The tour was hemorrhaging money they couldn't even afford to keep paying a keyboard player to stay on tour with them. And they had to pay Ted Nugent decent bucks to help fill some seats.

So what came next? An album that is basically demos. One that had sold so poorly, Chrysalis did a survey during the HITS tour trying to figure out why people weren't buying KISS albums. Yes, "Forever" as a $1.50 cassingle sold well but it didn't move albums.


Other people have quoted it and you can see its the same in their quotes of my post. So what are you lying about?

I've also mocked people for using Billboard's top charting #'s and length as if it proves anything when ST&H was their biggest seller but you wouldn't know that from its chart history. It's sales shouldn't have come as any big surprise. Kiss was pushing the makeup past (since Exposed). It was a new Greatest Hits cd. Cd's had been taking off. It was a great time for people to get a Greatest Hits collection of KISS with old and newer songs like I Love It Loud, Lick It Up.

How long did it take Ace to get a record deal? If Eddie Trunk hadn't given him one would he have ever gotten one?
Ace was relying on Vinnie just like KISS. I mean Ace was playing "Back On The Streets". Then Ace had to rely on a Paul Stanley song. Pretty pathetic of him to record "Hide Your Heart". Ace's most known single from his comeback "Into The Night". One more song Ace didn't write just like his hit NY Groove. Then one of his singles was "Do Ya". A hit songwriting machine he was.

YOOOOOOOOOOOOOO MY BROTHER SPHINXIE!!!!!!!!

Where the hell you been my man?!?!?!?

Brah...it’s soooo good to see your name pop up on the boards. I couldn’t believe my eyes. I sincerely and genuinely hope all is well with you and yours. It’s so good to have you back.

Our donnybrooks are what legends are made of. The nice thing is the threads never got locked. Don’t get me wrong...those were some dogfights and we did sling a little mud here and there but we always kept a level of civility to it. Good times. Good times.

There’s a new guy on here who shall remain nameless that does remind me of you. He’s got your tenacity for sure...but none of your intelligence and style. He always has me thinking about the good ol’ days.

I tip my hat to the return of a most worthy opponent.

(Now back to our regularly scheduled program)

I don't swing that way but glad my tenacity reminds you of your Broke Back Mountain days with Sphinxy. Lol.

Who was talking about you and what does Broke Back Mountain have to do with this conversation?

Nibbs comments to Sphinxy - Brah...it’s soooo good to see your name pop up on the boards. I couldn’t believe my eyes.

Nibbs commenting about me. "There’s a new guy on here who shall remain nameless that does remind me of you. He’s got your tenacity for sure."

Nibbs continued about me - "He always has me thinking about the good ol’ days."

I'm flattered that you're always thinking about me. I am the new guy and the only one that has gone back and forth as much as we have over tickets sold vs gross receipts.

Thunderous_Lay wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:53 am Gotta admit, few things in the world were as menacing-looking as KISS, circa late-1983...



Just look at Gene; isn't he channeling unfiltered, unchecked menace ?

Better yet, just look at Cusano: scary vibes right there...

TheSphinx wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:31 am

LordThurisaz wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:38 am I highly doubt his dreck sold faster than Billy Idol.

I went back and edited it. I had left off "debut". Invasion was the fastest selling debut in the history of Chrysalis. It had to do with the first month of sales. I think they were already on their 3rd pressing. The initial pressing was 50K. That was gone before the first week was out.

And there was a problem at the plant and there was a delay I believe right around October.


And his "All Systems Go" album even sold faster. All Systems Go shipped 250,000 units. Within a month, many stores were already on their 3rd order.


And by the time "featuring Mark Slaughter" appeared ... it was already pretty much over with Vinnie/ Chrysalis.

EggFlip wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:52 pm Totally wrong. All systems go was a massive flop. It sold nothing like what you say.

Vinnie kicked La guns off their tour as la guns were selling three times the shorts vvi were . Ended in a big fight at Harpo's in Detroit that Traci went to press about .

Doose wrote: ↑Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:56 pm Vinnie was successful in KISS because of Gene and Paul.
Vinnie was successful in the Invasion because of Dana and Mark.

Gene and Paul, and Mark and Dana, have gone on to greater success without Vinnie. And they continue to.
Even Blas Elias played with the Blue Man Group for 17 years, and is now playing with Trans-Siberian Orchestra.

Meanwhile, Vinnie is playing to 15 fans in a darkened rehearsal studio under a veil of paranoia and secrecy.

Who saved who?

nibbler1982 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:44 pm

PterCriss wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:31 pm

nibbler1982 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:22 pm

PterCriss wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:19 pm

nibbler1982 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:16 pm

TheSphinx wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:53 pm

PterCriss wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:09 pm

TheSphinx wrote: ↑Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:14 am

Red_Walrus wrote: ↑Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:55 amI got a few questions.What would Animalize looked like if VV stayed. What songs off VV Invasion would have made it.I think it would have been huge. Pauls songs were great and he had the hit with "HOF" but if VV could have bolstered up Genes songs and also included some of his own it would have been killer. Anyone have a playlist of what could have been?

So what came next? An album that is basically demos. One that had sold so poorly, Chrysalis did a survey during the HITS tour trying to figure out why people weren't buying KISS albums. Yes, "Forever" as a $1.50 cassingle sold well but it didn't move albums.

Actually - every Kiss fan knows Crazy Nights followed Asylum not HITS like you so easy revised and inserted. We also know Vinnie lost his mind and went AWOL. So your timeline and comments should end when Vinnie went crazy.

Also you might want to include talking about Smashed Thrashes and Hits and how it sold 2 million pr 2.5 million and has Let's Put the X in Sex as a single. I don't think anyone has figured out how that album sold so much and it had nothing to do with Vinnie. By the time 1987 rolled around Vinnie was an after thought in Kiss. If anyone talked about anyone coming back it was always - when is Ace coming back, not Vinnie.

I have no idea what you are talking about. The only thing I edited in that post was Invasion was the fastest selling DEBUT album. I put in debut.


Look how bad Asylum did. You didn't see it ship platinum. They spent more money on videos trying to push that album. That one got 3 and it still didn't sell well. And because Asylum did so poorly it went to the "two year plan" on Crazy Nights. The one thing that did help KISS during the time was they began to play up the nostalgia again. The makeup times were back thanks to eXposed being released prior to CN coming out. Crazy Nights can't be looked upon as any success at all. The tour was hemorrhaging money they couldn't even afford to keep paying a keyboard player to stay on tour with them. And they had to pay Ted Nugent decent bucks to help fill some seats.

So what came next? An album that is basically demos. One that had sold so poorly, Chrysalis did a survey during the HITS tour trying to figure out why people weren't buying KISS albums. Yes, "Forever" as a $1.50 cassingle sold well but it didn't move albums.


Other people have quoted it and you can see its the same in their quotes of my post. So what are you lying about?

I've also mocked people for using Billboard's top charting #'s and length as if it proves anything when ST&H was their biggest seller but you wouldn't know that from its chart history. It's sales shouldn't have come as any big surprise. Kiss was pushing the makeup past (since Exposed). It was a new Greatest Hits cd. Cd's had been taking off. It was a great time for people to get a Greatest Hits collection of KISS with old and newer songs like I Love It Loud, Lick It Up.

How long did it take Ace to get a record deal? If Eddie Trunk hadn't given him one would he have ever gotten one?
Ace was relying on Vinnie just like KISS. I mean Ace was playing "Back On The Streets". Then Ace had to rely on a Paul Stanley song. Pretty pathetic of him to record "Hide Your Heart". Ace's most known single from his comeback "Into The Night". One more song Ace didn't write just like his hit NY Groove. Then one of his singles was "Do Ya". A hit songwriting machine he was.

YOOOOOOOOOOOOOO MY BROTHER SPHINXIE!!!!!!!!

Where the hell you been my man?!?!?!?

Brah...it’s soooo good to see your name pop up on the boards. I couldn’t believe my eyes. I sincerely and genuinely hope all is well with you and yours. It’s so good to have you back.

Our donnybrooks are what legends are made of. The nice thing is the threads never got locked. Don’t get me wrong...those were some dogfights and we did sling a little mud here and there but we always kept a level of civility to it. Good times. Good times.

There’s a new guy on here who shall remain nameless that does remind me of you. He’s got your tenacity for sure...but none of your intelligence and style. He always has me thinking about the good ol’ days.

I tip my hat to the return of a most worthy opponent.

(Now back to our regularly scheduled program)

I don't swing that way but glad my tenacity reminds you of your Broke Back Mountain days with Sphinxy. Lol.

Who was talking about you and what does Broke Back Mountain have to do with this conversation?

Nibbs comments to Sphinxy - Brah...it’s soooo good to see your name pop up on the boards. I couldn’t believe my eyes.

Nibbs commenting about me. "There’s a new guy on here who shall remain nameless that does remind me of you. He’s got your tenacity for sure."

Nibbs continued about me - "He always has me thinking about the good ol’ days."

I'm flattered that you're always thinking about me. I am the new guy and the only one that has gone back and forth as much as we have over tickets sold vs gross receipts.

Geez...I hate to bust your bubble but the comment wasn’t about you.

EggFlip wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:58 pm There were 10 thousand record stores in the states In 1988 all getting at least one copy on tape , cd and vinyl so already 30 thousand copies before one sale will have been shipped aprox

PterCriss wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:43 pm

nibbler1982 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:44 pm

PterCriss wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:31 pm

nibbler1982 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:22 pm

PterCriss wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:19 pm

nibbler1982 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:16 pm

TheSphinx wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:53 pm

PterCriss wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:09 pm

TheSphinx wrote: ↑Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:14 am
So what came next? An album that is basically demos. One that had sold so poorly, Chrysalis did a survey during the HITS tour trying to figure out why people weren't buying KISS albums. Yes, "Forever" as a $1.50 cassingle sold well but it didn't move albums.

Actually - every Kiss fan knows Crazy Nights followed Asylum not HITS like you so easy revised and inserted. We also know Vinnie lost his mind and went AWOL. So your timeline and comments should end when Vinnie went crazy.

Also you might want to include talking about Smashed Thrashes and Hits and how it sold 2 million pr 2.5 million and has Let's Put the X in Sex as a single. I don't think anyone has figured out how that album sold so much and it had nothing to do with Vinnie. By the time 1987 rolled around Vinnie was an after thought in Kiss. If anyone talked about anyone coming back it was always - when is Ace coming back, not Vinnie.

I have no idea what you are talking about. The only thing I edited in that post was Invasion was the fastest selling DEBUT album. I put in debut.


Look how bad Asylum did. You didn't see it ship platinum. They spent more money on videos trying to push that album. That one got 3 and it still didn't sell well. And because Asylum did so poorly it went to the "two year plan" on Crazy Nights. The one thing that did help KISS during the time was they began to play up the nostalgia again. The makeup times were back thanks to eXposed being released prior to CN coming out. Crazy Nights can't be looked upon as any success at all. The tour was hemorrhaging money they couldn't even afford to keep paying a keyboard player to stay on tour with them. And they had to pay Ted Nugent decent bucks to help fill some seats.

So what came next? An album that is basically demos. One that had sold so poorly, Chrysalis did a survey during the HITS tour trying to figure out why people weren't buying KISS albums. Yes, "Forever" as a $1.50 cassingle sold well but it didn't move albums.


Other people have quoted it and you can see its the same in their quotes of my post. So what are you lying about?

I've also mocked people for using Billboard's top charting #'s and length as if it proves anything when ST&H was their biggest seller but you wouldn't know that from its chart history. It's sales shouldn't have come as any big surprise. Kiss was pushing the makeup past (since Exposed). It was a new Greatest Hits cd. Cd's had been taking off. It was a great time for people to get a Greatest Hits collection of KISS with old and newer songs like I Love It Loud, Lick It Up.

How long did it take Ace to get a record deal? If Eddie Trunk hadn't given him one would he have ever gotten one?
Ace was relying on Vinnie just like KISS. I mean Ace was playing "Back On The Streets". Then Ace had to rely on a Paul Stanley song. Pretty pathetic of him to record "Hide Your Heart". Ace's most known single from his comeback "Into The Night". One more song Ace didn't write just like his hit NY Groove. Then one of his singles was "Do Ya". A hit songwriting machine he was.

YOOOOOOOOOOOOOO MY BROTHER SPHINXIE!!!!!!!!

Where the hell you been my man?!?!?!?

Brah...it’s soooo good to see your name pop up on the boards. I couldn’t believe my eyes. I sincerely and genuinely hope all is well with you and yours. It’s so good to have you back.

Our donnybrooks are what legends are made of. The nice thing is the threads never got locked. Don’t get me wrong...those were some dogfights and we did sling a little mud here and there but we always kept a level of civility to it. Good times. Good times.

There’s a new guy on here who shall remain nameless that does remind me of you. He’s got your tenacity for sure...but none of your intelligence and style. He always has me thinking about the good ol’ days.

I tip my hat to the return of a most worthy opponent.

(Now back to our regularly scheduled program)

I don't swing that way but glad my tenacity reminds you of your Broke Back Mountain days with Sphinxy. Lol.

Who was talking about you and what does Broke Back Mountain have to do with this conversation?

Nibbs comments to Sphinxy - Brah...it’s soooo good to see your name pop up on the boards. I couldn’t believe my eyes.

Nibbs commenting about me. "There’s a new guy on here who shall remain nameless that does remind me of you. He’s got your tenacity for sure."

Nibbs continued about me - "He always has me thinking about the good ol’ days."

I'm flattered that you're always thinking about me. I am the new guy and the only one that has gone back and forth as much as we have over tickets sold vs gross receipts.

Geez...I hate to bust your bubble but the comment wasn’t about you.

Then who was the NEW guy? Tell us.

nibbler1982 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:47 pm

PterCriss wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:43 pm

nibbler1982 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:44 pm

PterCriss wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:31 pm

nibbler1982 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:22 pm

PterCriss wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:19 pm

nibbler1982 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:16 pm

TheSphinx wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:53 pm

PterCriss wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:09 pm Actually - every Kiss fan knows Crazy Nights followed Asylum not HITS like you so easy revised and inserted. We also know Vinnie lost his mind and went AWOL. So your timeline and comments should end when Vinnie went crazy.

Also you might want to include talking about Smashed Thrashes and Hits and how it sold 2 million pr 2.5 million and has Let's Put the X in Sex as a single. I don't think anyone has figured out how that album sold so much and it had nothing to do with Vinnie. By the time 1987 rolled around Vinnie was an after thought in Kiss. If anyone talked about anyone coming back it was always - when is Ace coming back, not Vinnie.

I have no idea what you are talking about. The only thing I edited in that post was Invasion was the fastest selling DEBUT album. I put in debut.


Look how bad Asylum did. You didn't see it ship platinum. They spent more money on videos trying to push that album. That one got 3 and it still didn't sell well. And because Asylum did so poorly it went to the "two year plan" on Crazy Nights. The one thing that did help KISS during the time was they began to play up the nostalgia again. The makeup times were back thanks to eXposed being released prior to CN coming out. Crazy Nights can't be looked upon as any success at all. The tour was hemorrhaging money they couldn't even afford to keep paying a keyboard player to stay on tour with them. And they had to pay Ted Nugent decent bucks to help fill some seats.

So what came next? An album that is basically demos. One that had sold so poorly, Chrysalis did a survey during the HITS tour trying to figure out why people weren't buying KISS albums. Yes, "Forever" as a $1.50 cassingle sold well but it didn't move albums.


Other people have quoted it and you can see its the same in their quotes of my post. So what are you lying about?

I've also mocked people for using Billboard's top charting #'s and length as if it proves anything when ST&H was their biggest seller but you wouldn't know that from its chart history. It's sales shouldn't have come as any big surprise. Kiss was pushing the makeup past (since Exposed). It was a new Greatest Hits cd. Cd's had been taking off. It was a great time for people to get a Greatest Hits collection of KISS with old and newer songs like I Love It Loud, Lick It Up.

How long did it take Ace to get a record deal? If Eddie Trunk hadn't given him one would he have ever gotten one?
Ace was relying on Vinnie just like KISS. I mean Ace was playing "Back On The Streets". Then Ace had to rely on a Paul Stanley song. Pretty pathetic of him to record "Hide Your Heart". Ace's most known single from his comeback "Into The Night". One more song Ace didn't write just like his hit NY Groove. Then one of his singles was "Do Ya". A hit songwriting machine he was.

YOOOOOOOOOOOOOO MY BROTHER SPHINXIE!!!!!!!!

Where the hell you been my man?!?!?!?

Brah...it’s soooo good to see your name pop up on the boards. I couldn’t believe my eyes. I sincerely and genuinely hope all is well with you and yours. It’s so good to have you back.

Our donnybrooks are what legends are made of. The nice thing is the threads never got locked. Don’t get me wrong...those were some dogfights and we did sling a little mud here and there but we always kept a level of civility to it. Good times. Good times.

There’s a new guy on here who shall remain nameless that does remind me of you. He’s got your tenacity for sure...but none of your intelligence and style. He always has me thinking about the good ol’ days.

I tip my hat to the return of a most worthy opponent.

(Now back to our regularly scheduled program)

I don't swing that way but glad my tenacity reminds you of your Broke Back Mountain days with Sphinxy. Lol.

Who was talking about you and what does Broke Back Mountain have to do with this conversation?

Nibbs comments to Sphinxy - Brah...it’s soooo good to see your name pop up on the boards. I couldn’t believe my eyes.

Nibbs commenting about me. "There’s a new guy on here who shall remain nameless that does remind me of you. He’s got your tenacity for sure."

Nibbs continued about me - "He always has me thinking about the good ol’ days."

I'm flattered that you're always thinking about me. I am the new guy and the only one that has gone back and forth as much as we have over tickets sold vs gross receipts.

Geez...I hate to bust your bubble but the comment wasn’t about you.

Then who was the NEW guy? Tell us.

What don’t you understand about “who shall remain nameless”?