Would VVs' Animalize have been one of KISS' best selling albums?

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Heartofchrome
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Re: Would VVs' Animalize have been one of KISS' best selling albums?

Post by Heartofchrome » Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:22 pm

Where's Drago? wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:57 pm
Thunderous_Lay wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:38 pm
Where's Drago? wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:29 pm
I've said it before and I'll say it again:

"Heaven's On Fire" is Paul ripping off Vinnie. It's almost like Paul's gone to Desmond "Our songwriter's gone, help me write me one he'd write."

Those lyrics are pure Vinnie. Did he leave the band with some lyric ideas or something?

Hot boiling blood, kneeling devils, skies painted with desire - this is all the beautiful demented imagery of Vinnie Vincent.

And yes, Animalize would've been bonkers huge if Vinnie had hung around.
Lick It Up wasn't "bonkers huge".

Vinnie Vincent Invasion wasn't "bonkers huge".

All Systems Go wasn't "bonkers huge".

Hell, not even Creatures of the Night, which I love BTW, was "bonkers huge".

Why would Animalize with Cusano be "bonkers huge" ?

I mean, am I missing something here ?
Momentum.

Animalize already sold more than any other KISS album since Dynasty. But it was shit. The effort KISS had put into the band was beginning to bear fruit. Lick It Up absolutely opened the door for Animalize. But Animalize never had the songs. From that point on, KISS stalled. Until, of course, Vinnie wrote the lead single from Revenge...

U.S. Charts:
Dynasty : #9
Unmasked : #35 (down 26)
The Elder : #75 (down 40)
Creatures : #45 (up 30)
Lick It Up : #24 (up 21)
Animalize : #19 (up 5)
Asylum : #20 (down 1)
Crazy Nights : #18 (up 2)
Revenge : #6 (up 12)

3 albums had way better performances than their counterparts: Creatures, Lick It Up and Revenge.

Those 3 albums all required Vinnie.

And Vinnie required KISS.

This isn't hyperbole, it's Egyptian WIZardry.
Wheres hits?

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Re: Would VVs' Animalize have been one of KISS' best selling albums?

Post by Where's Drago? » Sat Aug 17, 2019 2:29 pm

My apologies, HITS now added:

U.S. Charts:
Dynasty : #9
Unmasked : #35 (down 26)
The Elder : #75 (down 40)
Creatures : #45 (up 30)
Lick It Up : #24 (up 21)
Animalize : #19 (up 5)
Asylum : #20 (down 1)
Crazy Nights : #18 (up 2)
H.I.T.S : #29 (down 11)
Revenge : #6 (up 23)

The context has probably gone now though, lol.

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Re: Would VVs' Animalize have been one of KISS' best selling albums?

Post by Parallax1 » Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:14 pm

TheSphinx wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:35 am
kissthat wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:18 am
Look who's back , nice to see you pop in Sphinxie.

Thanks. I'm going to pop back out now but I couldn't resist this one.

All Hail The Egyptian Warrior!
When I first started reading this thread I thought of you.
And then... there you are! Don't be a stranger!

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Re: Would VVs' Animalize have been one of KISS' best selling albums?

Post by Heartofchrome » Sat Aug 17, 2019 8:22 pm

Parallax1 wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:14 pm
TheSphinx wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:35 am
kissthat wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:18 am
Look who's back , nice to see you pop in Sphinxie.

Thanks. I'm going to pop back out now but I couldn't resist this one.

All Hail The Egyptian Warrior!
When I first started reading this thread I thought of you.
And then... there you are! Don't be a stranger!
Yeah welcome back Hey Man/Vinnie

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Re: Would VVs' Animalize have been one of KISS' best selling albums?

Post by redinthesky » Sat Aug 17, 2019 9:58 pm

caligari wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:01 pm
Rockandrolloverman wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:55 pm
The album sold huge as it was


there was no need for Vinny
“Huge”compared to what?

Mötley? 🎭
Ozzy?
Dio?
Sister?
Leppard?
Springsteen?
Ratt? 🐀
It is Kiss's biggest-selling studio album without the makeup I believe, unless Crazy Nights overtook it. Either way, it did very well, better than the Vinnie-infused "Lick It Up" album (which I like).

I'm glad Vinnie didn't work on Animalize. I agree, there was no need for Vinnie. And I said this before, something is up, because while Vinnie co-wrote some good Kiss songs, I personally think his "Invasion" albums sound much different, and much worse. In other words, like crap.

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Re: Would VVs' Animalize have been one of KISS' best selling albums?

Post by LordThurisaz » Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:33 pm

Uh, no.

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Re: Would VVs' Animalize have been one of KISS' best selling albums?

Post by lord71 » Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:46 am

sneed78 wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:34 am
“THE INVASION OF ANIMALIZE”

SIDE ONE
1. I’ve Had Enough (Into the Fire)
2. Heaven’s On Fire
3. I Wanna Be Your Victim (Gene vocals)
4. No Substitute (Paul vocals)
5. Thrills In The Night
6. Baby-O

SIDE TWO
1. Do You Wanna Make Love (Paul vocals)
2. Burn Bitch Burn
3. Back On The Streets (Vinnie and Paul vocals)
4. Gypsy In Your Eyes
5. Twisted (Gene vocals)

6. Boyz Are Gonna Rock
Yep. Gypsy wasn't exactly in Invasion record but it was one Vinnie's songs at the time.

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Re: Would VVs' Animalize have been one of KISS' best selling albums?

Post by Ikons » Sun Aug 18, 2019 1:09 am

redinthesky wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 9:58 pm
caligari wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:01 pm
Rockandrolloverman wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:55 pm
The album sold huge as it was


there was no need for Vinny
“Huge”compared to what?

Mötley? 🎭
Ozzy?
Dio?
Sister?
Leppard?
Springsteen?
Ratt? 🐀
It is Kiss's biggest-selling studio album without the makeup I believe, unless Crazy Nights overtook it. Either way, it did very well, better than the Vinnie-infused "Lick It Up" album (which I like).

I'm glad Vinnie didn't work on Animalize. I agree, there was no need for Vinnie. And I said this before, something is up, because while Vinnie co-wrote some good Kiss songs, I personally think his "Invasion" albums sound much different, and much worse. In other words, like crap.
That was always weird to me. I like most of his KISS co-writes, but I loathe his solo stuff.

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Re: Would VVs' Animalize have been one of KISS' best selling albums?

Post by YesterdaysLegend » Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:27 am

I think that If Vinnie had stayed-> no Desmond Child and no HOF. But propably Animalize would have been much better than it is without proper Genesongs.

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Re: Would VVs' Animalize have been one of KISS' best selling albums?

Post by BullSid » Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:32 pm

The only thing KISS needed at the time was a hungry Gene in demon mode. All his songs from LIU till HITS are weak, the same period he lost his head to Hollywood.

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Re: Would VVs' Animalize have been one of KISS' best selling albums?

Post by Rip Rokken » Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:01 pm

TheSphinx wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:14 am
Red_Walrus wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:55 am
I got a few questions.What would Animalize looked like if VV stayed. What songs off VV Invasion would have made it.I think it would have been huge. Pauls songs were great and he had the hit with "HOF" but if VV could have bolstered up Genes songs and also included some of his own it would have been killer. Anyone have a playlist of what could have been?
It would have been huge! "Animalize" basically shipped platinum due to the strength of "Lick It Up". Of course there was the 90 day window in place at the time. And it was certified Platinum on Dec 3, 1984 & released Sept 1, 1984.

"Lick It Up" was already past 1M in sales before "Animalize" came out. It's sad to be past 2M in sales.Lick It Up is far more beloved. It ranks in most Top 10 best Kiss albums of all time. Usually ranks as the best or 2nd best Kiss album from 1980-Forward (with it switching places with COTN) which is basically another Vinnie album.

Had Vinnie been around for that album and tour it is what they would have needed for them to be back on top.

I think without a doubt, they would have dropped most of the "classic songs" and they would have been playing mainly material from COTN, LICK IT UP and the new album. They wouldn't have had to rely on the past. Metal-N-Roll would have been here to stay.6 songs from "Lick It Up" were played during at least 44 of the shows on that tour. "All Hells Breaking Loose" 54. Exciter 44. Lick It Up, Young and Wasted, Gimme More, Fits Like a Glove all over 90 times.Also 4 songs from COTN were part of the regular set list: I Love It Loud, Creatures, War Machine, I Still Love You.They could have easily kept those 10 songs for the set list of Animalize and added 4-5 more from Animalize and just done "Rock & Roll Alnight" and maybe 1 other "classic Kiss" song. They could have also switched out "A Million To One" for "I Still Love You" and it would have gone over huge.

Animalize was a mediocre album with only one really strong song. Heavens On Fire. And HOF is still no "Lick It Up". Everyone knows Lick It Up. You look at how many times Kiss has been on late night, American Idol, you name it and usually "Lick It Up" is one of the songs they play.

And why did Asylum fail to ship platinum? Because Animalize wasn't very strong. Most albums are sold initially based on the one before it. There can be other factors but . .That's why reason Vinnie Vincent Invasion sold so well. Why it was the fastest selling album in the history of Chrysalis. And it only had one single/video to prmote it. Yet, by the time of "All Systems Go" release it was right around 500,000.

And the strength of "Invasion" of course led to far more publicity, bigger ad bugets etc. That's why "All Systems Go" was already at 500,000 units with 2 1/2 months. Of course, All Systems Go probably could have done 2-3X platinum had it not been for alot of the ineptitude at Chrysalis. If the album had come out when it was originally supposed to, Vinnie Vincent Invasion would have had the opening slot on the Aerosmith Permanent Vacation tour.

Also, Chrysalis management was so incompetent back then they thought it was too expensive to put out two different versions of the same album. They could have easily released a "Full Shredd" version of "All Systems Go" and a more radio friendly version. Which would have sold incredibly well and most Kiss/Vinnie fans would have picked up both versions. They could have kept Vinnie happy and also had more mainstream success. But not doing that. Getting Dana & Mark to go behind Vinnie's back and remix more "radio friendly" versions was not the thing to do.

And people go well, Vinnie didn't "officially" get RIAA awards. Or they bring up nonsense like where it placed highest on Billboard like that meant anything. Like Billboard figures were based on reality. All you've got to do is look at Smashes, Trashes & Hits to see how short it was on the charts etc but yet. And of course whether you had a video or a new single, tour all played a factor.People bring up Slaughter and their success.

Of course SITY was basically the third VVI release. Same record company. You name it. Mark & Dana from VVI. They had the entire Vinnie Vincent fan club list etc. All those street teamers were basically VVI fans. Why do you think Up All Night was on Dial MTV from Day 1 and stayed there. Slaughter had already been offered the opening tour slot on the "Hot In The Shade" tour before their album was even released. Why do you think Kiss did that?

Both VVI albums are said to be around 1M copies each. Which wouldn't be surprising with Stick It To Ya being close to 3M. Of course we will hear but soundscan doesn't have it doing such and such. People act like soundscan of today was the same as it was back in the early 90's when it didn't count sames from some of the largest places. Soundscan didn't count record club sales at all. And of course, alot of people got those Vinnie albums on CD during that time period.

Look how bad Asylum did. You didn't see it ship platinum. They spent more money on videos trying to push that album. That one got 3 and it still didn't sell well. And because Asylum did so poorly it went to the "two year plan" on Crazy Nights. The one thing that did help KISS during the time was they began to play up the nostalgia again. The makeup times were back thanks to eXposed being released prior to CN coming out. Crazy Nights can't be looked upon as any success at all. The tour was hemorrhaging money they couldn't even afford to keep paying a keyboard player to stay on tour with them. And they had to pay Ted Nugent decent bucks to help fill some seats.

So what came next? An album that is basically demos. One that had sold so poorly, Chrysalis did a survey during the HITS tour trying to figure out why people weren't buying KISS albums. Yes, "Forever" as a $1.50 cassingle sold well but it didn't move albums.

What was KISS left with? Going back to Vinnie. Revenge is around 1M in sales. Even if you go by the soundscan figures (which missed a ton of sales on its initial release and doesnt' account for record club sales), Revenge is still the best KISS selling album from 1989 forward. It's timing of course was hurt by grunge. The delay of the Revenge tour also hurt it subtantially. Using Faster Pussycat and some of the other opening acts on that tour certainly didn't help things. And there was no Slaughter or Winger to help put a ton of butts in the seats like KISS had on the HITS tour.

Revenge could have been substantially better if they had used more Vinnie songs on it. But at least Vinnie got KISS BACK on track just like he did with COTN. KISS' direction prior to Vinnie was not good (as evidenced by the early COTN sessions which wound up on "Killers"). And Bruce Kulick got set down because his playing wasn't up to snuff.

If anyone is honest, they will admit the 3 best KISS albums from 1977-on are COTN, LICK IT UP and REVENGE.

KISS is lucky the reunion happened because "Carnival Of Grunge" would have put them to playing 1,000 seaters


Whatever you want to say about Vinnie and his output since All Systems Go, the fact is undeniable that he was by far the 3rd most important songwriter to KISS (Behind Gene and Paul). That Metal-N-Roll put KISS back on top after KISS had buried themselves 3 feet under.

Maybe Vinnie can't save himself, but he sure saved KISS.

It's a shame Paul's ego was too huge and they were too cheap to pay Vinnie accordingly. They really cost themselves a ton of money they could have had from 1984 up to at least the mid 90's. They'd probably still own their publishing and wouldn't have had to sell that off just to keep afloat.
Really interesting question I haven’t heard before. Loved your post — very informative. Yes, LICK IT UP was a very strong album. I haven’t listened to ANIMALIZE in years.

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Re: Would VVs' Animalize have been one of KISS' best selling albums?

Post by andreww1962 » Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:50 pm

Vinnie didn't save KISS, he may have helped keep their heads above water for a short period though. KISS has never been overly successful without Ace and Peter, with the exception of the 2019 Lip-sync tour. Everything else was on the fringe at best.

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Re: Would VVs' Animalize have been one of KISS' best selling albums?

Post by Doose » Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:56 pm

Vinnie was successful in KISS because of Gene and Paul.
Vinnie was successful in the Invasion because of Dana and Mark.

Gene and Paul, and Mark and Dana, have gone on to greater success without Vinnie. And they continue to.
Even Blas Elias played with the Blue Man Group for 17 years, and is now playing with Trans-Siberian Orchestra.

Meanwhile, Vinnie is playing to 15 fans in a darkened rehearsal studio under a veil of paranoia and secrecy.

Who saved who?

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Re: Would VVs' Animalize have been one of KISS' best selling albums?

Post by UltraCynic » Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:08 pm

TheSphinx wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:35 am
kissthat wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:18 am
Look who's back , nice to see you pop in Sphinxie.

Thanks. I'm going to pop back out now but I couldn't resist this one.

All Hail The Egyptian Warrior!
The Sphinx is in the hizzouse!!!

The absolute chap!

You’ve been missed. So good to read your input.

Stay awesome 👍🏾

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Re: Would VVs' Animalize have been one of KISS' best selling albums?

Post by jkiss » Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:36 pm

"Animalize" is one that I thought was 'good enough' when it came-out; although, not one I ever listen to anymore. I believe its more likely it would have been a better album (more enjoyable overall) had Vinnie been on it, but not that I'm a super huge fan of the guy to begin with.

:scratch:

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Re: Would VVs' Animalize have been one of KISS' best selling albums?

Post by mamado » Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:56 pm

No. :flower:

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Re: Would VVs' Animalize have been one of KISS' best selling albums?

Post by PterCriss » Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:33 pm

Animalize with Vinnie would have been the Destroyer, Rock n Roll Over and Love Gun of the 80's. It makes me pissed at Vinnie that he was a dork and got greedy. Creatures of the Night, Lick It Up and Animalize with Vinnie would have been epic.

Albums go together and have for the 1-3, 6,7,8, and could have been with 12,13,14. This was also a mistake from Gene and Paul not keeping Vinnie on board longer. It was also the right time in Metal / Hard Rock / Hair Metal in 1985, for Kiss to make a further push to the top.

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Re: Would VVs' Animalize have been one of KISS' best selling albums?

Post by spaceace1977 » Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:38 pm

Back on the Streets with Paul singing - without a doubt a major radio hit that never was.

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Re: Would VVs' Animalize have been one of KISS' best selling albums?

Post by strangeways747 » Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:41 pm

It would have been huge.

The stage was set by the Lick it Up comeback .....
If Animalize would've capitalized on that with Vinnie in tow the boyz would've been unstoppable setting the standard for the new era of Kiss big time. They would not have been fololowers but trend setters garnering a whole new legion of younger fans and catipulted themselves back up into the ranks with the big acts of the day (Priest, Leppard, Maiden etc.)

Instead, the one note success that Animalize was with Heaven's on Fire and the revolving door of guitarists delegated Kiss to the ranks of the almost but not quite there. Too bad.

In a 1996 interview Vinnie Vincent was quoted as saying that he had the following tunes demoed and ready to go for what turned out to be the Animalize record.

Boyz Are Gonna Rock, Shoot U Full of Love, Back on the Streets, Twisted, Animal
I Wanna Be Your Victim & Do You Wanna Make Love


Assuming that is true and that they would've all made the album what tunes do you think Gene would've sang and what tunes you you think Paul would've sang?

Running order (of course I could and probably will change my mind on this part on a daily basis...)

SIDE 1:
I've Had Enough (Into the Fire) (Paul vocals)
Heaven's On Fire (Paul vocals)
Twisted (Gene vocals)
Shoot U Full of Love(Paul vocals)
Lonely Is The Hunter (Gene vocals)
Under The Gun (Paul vocals)

SIDE 2:
Boyz Are Gonna Rock (Paul vocals)
Do You Wanna Make Love (Paul vocals)
Animal (Gene vocals)
Back On The Streets (Paul vocals)
Thrills In The Night (Paul vocals)
I Wanna Be Your Victim (Gene vocals)
Last edited by strangeways747 on Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:20 pm, edited 8 times in total.

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Re: Would VVs' Animalize have been one of KISS' best selling albums?

Post by highvoltage1969 » Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:52 pm

Red_Walrus wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:55 am
I got a few questions.

What would Animalize looked like if VV stayed. What songs off VV Invasion would have made it.

I think it would have been huge. Pauls songs were great and he had the hit with "HOF" but if VV could have bolstered up Genes songs and also included some of his own it would have been killer. Anyone have a playlist of what could have been?
I think it would have been awesome and yeah I imagine it would have been one of their best selling albums, although even without Vinnie Animalize ended up being their best selling studio album of the 80ies.

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Re: Would VVs' Animalize have been one of KISS' best selling albums?

Post by 70skid » Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:11 pm

Parallax1 wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:14 pm
TheSphinx wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:35 am
kissthat wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:18 am
Look who's back , nice to see you pop in Sphinxie.

Thanks. I'm going to pop back out now but I couldn't resist this one.

All Hail The Egyptian Warrior!
When I first started reading this thread I thought of you.
And then... there you are! Don't be a stranger!
Agree ! Asked about TheSphinx (VV?) on another thread. Glad to see he is still here - - monitoring...

:salut: :farao:

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Re: Would VVs' Animalize have been one of KISS' best selling albums?

Post by EggFlip » Wed Aug 21, 2019 12:04 am

Substitute not a kiss sounding tune. Thrills in the night better for the album. Back on the streets was recorded for creatures but I still don't think the lyrics are what kiss were looking for for animalize. Animal yes I think would have worked and maybe twisted. Invasion may have worked on animalize and I wanna be your victim . Would it have been better, yes!!

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Re: Would VVs' Animalize have been one of KISS' best selling albums?

Post by EggFlip » Wed Aug 21, 2019 12:14 am

Animaiize went platinum on the strength of lick it up,???.. Haha no, that would make sense if lick it up had done as well as animalize. Animalize did well on the strength of heavens on fire MTV and radio. It was totally down to one song. I was around and kiss were not getting fans because of lick it up in fact still at the time you wore a lick it up shirt and you got crushed by motley crue, priest, maiden fans at school. You may as well have worn a Barry manilow shirt and have had the same reaction.
TheSphinx wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:18 am
Thunderous_Lay wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:48 am
Where's Drago? wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:57 pm
Momentum.

Animalize already sold more than any other KISS album since Dynasty. But it was shit.
... yeahhh, I'm sorry but I stopped reading there.

Animalize may be flawed but next to Lick It Up, it's a f*ckin' masterpiece. It's almost as if the band got its testicles reattached after Lick It Up's pussified sound.

Also, both Animalize and Asylum went platinum in North America, while Cusano literally went nowhere, and to make matters worse, Slaughter's debut actually went multi-platinum.

It feels as if, I dunno... Cusano drags everything and everyone around him.

This is what you call #FakeNews.

Animalize shipped platinum based on the strength of Lick It Up.

Asylum has never been certified platinum. It was a huge failure. And brought about the "2 year plan". I would imagine it is now past 1M in sales.

And yes, Slaughter sold well, but that was basically the 3rd VVI album for them. Why do you think it did so well? Why do you think they were offered the opening tour slot on the HITS tour before their album had even come out.

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Re: Would VVs' Animalize have been one of KISS' best selling albums?

Post by LordThurisaz » Wed Aug 21, 2019 12:46 am

EggFlip wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 12:14 am
Animaiize went platinum on the strength of lick it up,???.. Haha no, that would make sense if lick it up had done as well as animalize. Animalize did well on the strength of heavens on fire MTV and radio. It was totally down to one song. I was around and kiss were not getting fans because of lick it up in fact still at the time you wore a lick it up shirt and you got crushed by motley crue, priest, maiden fans at school. You may as well have worn a Barry manilow shirt and have had the same reaction.
A newspaper clipping was posted on here within the last year or so, and it stated that KISS was having trouble, still, selling tickets on the "Vinnie Saves KISS" tour. I love the Vinnie Vincent revisionist history around here; it's comical. It's about as made up as the stories in a Greek Mythology class.

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Re: Would VVs' Animalize have been one of KISS' best selling albums?

Post by Stanley! You look so cute » Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:12 am

Vinnie's guitar playing was already sounding dated by the time Animalize came out, and he was a terrible fit for the band live. All of the fans I knew at the time hated his playing and said he ruined the LIU tour. If you listen to any recordings from that tour now, Vinnie's playing sounds absolutely ridiculous.

Overall I prefer Animalize to Lick It Up. Under The Gun, Thrills In The Night and Heaven's on Fire are way stronger than anything off LIU, and with Bruce onboard they had a much more tasteful and appropriate guitarist for the tour.

The Vinnie era is just a blip in Kisstory that a lot of us would rather forget.

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Re: Would VVs' Animalize have been one of KISS' best selling albums?

Post by elleneff » Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:28 am

Paul Stanley certainly pretends it never happened.

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Re: Would VVs' Animalize have been one of KISS' best selling albums?

Post by highvoltage1969 » Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:18 am

TheSphinx wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:14 am
Red_Walrus wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:55 am
I got a few questions.What would Animalize looked like if VV stayed. What songs off VV Invasion would have made it.I think it would have been huge. Pauls songs were great and he had the hit with "HOF" but if VV could have bolstered up Genes songs and also included some of his own it would have been killer. Anyone have a playlist of what could have been?
It would have been huge! "Animalize" basically shipped platinum due to the strength of "Lick It Up". Of course there was the 90 day window in place at the time. And it was certified Platinum on Dec 3, 1984 & released Sept 1, 1984.

"Lick It Up" was already past 1M in sales before "Animalize" came out. It's sad to be past 2M in sales.Lick It Up is far more beloved. It ranks in most Top 10 best Kiss albums of all time. Usually ranks as the best or 2nd best Kiss album from 1980-Forward (with it switching places with COTN) which is basically another Vinnie album.

Had Vinnie been around for that album and tour it is what they would have needed for them to be back on top.

I think without a doubt, they would have dropped most of the "classic songs" and they would have been playing mainly material from COTN, LICK IT UP and the new album. They wouldn't have had to rely on the past. Metal-N-Roll would have been here to stay.6 songs from "Lick It Up" were played during at least 44 of the shows on that tour. "All Hells Breaking Loose" 54. Exciter 44. Lick It Up, Young and Wasted, Gimme More, Fits Like a Glove all over 90 times.Also 4 songs from COTN were part of the regular set list: I Love It Loud, Creatures, War Machine, I Still Love You.They could have easily kept those 10 songs for the set list of Animalize and added 4-5 more from Animalize and just done "Rock & Roll Alnight" and maybe 1 other "classic Kiss" song. They could have also switched out "A Million To One" for "I Still Love You" and it would have gone over huge.

Animalize was a mediocre album with only one really strong song. Heavens On Fire. And HOF is still no "Lick It Up". Everyone knows Lick It Up. You look at how many times Kiss has been on late night, American Idol, you name it and usually "Lick It Up" is one of the songs they play.

And why did Asylum fail to ship platinum? Because Animalize wasn't very strong. Most albums are sold initially based on the one before it. There can be other factors but . .That's why reason Vinnie Vincent Invasion sold so well. Why it was the fastest selling album in the history of Chrysalis. And it only had one single/video to prmote it. Yet, by the time of "All Systems Go" release it was right around 500,000.

And the strength of "Invasion" of course led to far more publicity, bigger ad bugets etc. That's why "All Systems Go" was already at 500,000 units with 2 1/2 months. Of course, All Systems Go probably could have done 2-3X platinum had it not been for alot of the ineptitude at Chrysalis. If the album had come out when it was originally supposed to, Vinnie Vincent Invasion would have had the opening slot on the Aerosmith Permanent Vacation tour.

Also, Chrysalis management was so incompetent back then they thought it was too expensive to put out two different versions of the same album. They could have easily released a "Full Shredd" version of "All Systems Go" and a more radio friendly version. Which would have sold incredibly well and most Kiss/Vinnie fans would have picked up both versions. They could have kept Vinnie happy and also had more mainstream success. But not doing that. Getting Dana & Mark to go behind Vinnie's back and remix more "radio friendly" versions was not the thing to do.

And people go well, Vinnie didn't "officially" get RIAA awards. Or they bring up nonsense like where it placed highest on Billboard like that meant anything. Like Billboard figures were based on reality. All you've got to do is look at Smashes, Trashes & Hits to see how short it was on the charts etc but yet. And of course whether you had a video or a new single, tour all played a factor.People bring up Slaughter and their success.

Of course SITY was basically the third VVI release. Same record company. You name it. Mark & Dana from VVI. They had the entire Vinnie Vincent fan club list etc. All those street teamers were basically VVI fans. Why do you think Up All Night was on Dial MTV from Day 1 and stayed there. Slaughter had already been offered the opening tour slot on the "Hot In The Shade" tour before their album was even released. Why do you think Kiss did that?

Both VVI albums are said to be around 1M copies each. Which wouldn't be surprising with Stick It To Ya being close to 3M. Of course we will hear but soundscan doesn't have it doing such and such. People act like soundscan of today was the same as it was back in the early 90's when it didn't count sames from some of the largest places. Soundscan didn't count record club sales at all. And of course, alot of people got those Vinnie albums on CD during that time period.

Look how bad Asylum did. You didn't see it ship platinum. They spent more money on videos trying to push that album. That one got 3 and it still didn't sell well. And because Asylum did so poorly it went to the "two year plan" on Crazy Nights. The one thing that did help KISS during the time was they began to play up the nostalgia again. The makeup times were back thanks to eXposed being released prior to CN coming out. Crazy Nights can't be looked upon as any success at all. The tour was hemorrhaging money they couldn't even afford to keep paying a keyboard player to stay on tour with them. And they had to pay Ted Nugent decent bucks to help fill some seats.

So what came next? An album that is basically demos. One that had sold so poorly, Chrysalis did a survey during the HITS tour trying to figure out why people weren't buying KISS albums. Yes, "Forever" as a $1.50 cassingle sold well but it didn't move albums.

What was KISS left with? Going back to Vinnie. Revenge is around 1M in sales. Even if you go by the soundscan figures (which missed a ton of sales on its initial release and doesnt' account for record club sales), Revenge is still the best KISS selling album from 1989 forward. It's timing of course was hurt by grunge. The delay of the Revenge tour also hurt it subtantially. Using Faster Pussycat and some of the other opening acts on that tour certainly didn't help things. And there was no Slaughter or Winger to help put a ton of butts in the seats like KISS had on the HITS tour.

Revenge could have been substantially better if they had used more Vinnie songs on it. But at least Vinnie got KISS BACK on track just like he did with COTN. KISS' direction prior to Vinnie was not good (as evidenced by the early COTN sessions which wound up on "Killers"). And Bruce Kulick got set down because his playing wasn't up to snuff.

If anyone is honest, they will admit the 3 best KISS albums from 1977-on are COTN, LICK IT UP and REVENGE.

KISS is lucky the reunion happened because "Carnival Of Grunge" would have put them to playing 1,000 seaters


Whatever you want to say about Vinnie and his output since All Systems Go, the fact is undeniable that he was by far the 3rd most important songwriter to KISS (Behind Gene and Paul). That Metal-N-Roll put KISS back on top after KISS had buried themselves 3 feet under.

Maybe Vinnie can't save himself, but he sure saved KISS.

It's a shame Paul's ego was too huge and they were too cheap to pay Vinnie accordingly. They really cost themselves a ton of money they could have had from 1984 up to at least the mid 90's. They'd probably still own their publishing and wouldn't have had to sell that off just to keep afloat.
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Re: Would VVs' Animalize have been one of KISS' best selling albums?

Post by Tito » Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:18 am

LordThurisaz wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 12:46 am
I love the Vinnie Vincent revisionist history around here; it's comical. It's about as made up as the stories in a Greek Mythology class.
I've never taken "Vinnie saved KISS" to mean anything but CREATIVELY. They might have struggled to sell tickets but COTN and LIU were certainly several steps in the right direction after the preceding couple of albums.

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Re: Would VVs' Animalize have been one of KISS' best selling albums?

Post by Stanley! You look so cute » Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:29 am

Tito wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:18 am
LordThurisaz wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 12:46 am
I love the Vinnie Vincent revisionist history around here; it's comical. It's about as made up as the stories in a Greek Mythology class.
I've never taken "Vinnie saved KISS" to mean anything but CREATIVELY. They might have struggled to sell tickets but COTN and LIU were certainly several steps in the right direction after the preceding couple of albums.
Paul and/or other writing partners would have got the band back on course without Vinnie. I don't believe any of the hype about Vinnie saving Kiss, even creatively. He was just lucky enough to be around when they were saving their own asses. It was Paul's drive and vision that pulled Kiss through the early 80s, Vinnie was just a passenger.

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Re: Would VVs' Animalize have been one of KISS' best selling albums?

Post by Tito » Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:34 am

Stanley! You look so cute wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:29 am
Tito wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:18 am
LordThurisaz wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 12:46 am
I love the Vinnie Vincent revisionist history around here; it's comical. It's about as made up as the stories in a Greek Mythology class.
I've never taken "Vinnie saved KISS" to mean anything but CREATIVELY. They might have struggled to sell tickets but COTN and LIU were certainly several steps in the right direction after the preceding couple of albums.
Paul and/or other writing partners would have got the band back on course without Vinnie. I don't believe any of the hype about Vinnie saving Kiss, even creatively. He was just lucky enough to be around when they were saving their own asses. It was Paul's drive and vision that pulled Kiss through the early 80s, Vinnie was just a passenger.
There is a very personal stamp to his style of writing riffs and melodies, that I for one happen to love. Wouldn't have been the same without him.

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Re: Would VVs' Animalize have been one of KISS' best selling albums?

Post by UltraCynic » Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:33 am

I couldn’t believe the drop in quality from LIU to Animalize.

Dave Dickson’s review in Kerrang! said Animalize wasn’t good enough/bang average and it was literally the only time I ever agreed with him.

A sprinkling of VV would have maintained the standard set on the previous 2 albums.

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Re: Would VVs' Animalize have been one of KISS' best selling albums?

Post by nfarend » Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:22 am

Animalize made me stop being a fan for years. When I bought the album I was heavily disappointed. Didn't even wanna go see the tour and lost interest for years. When Asylum was released I knew KISS had taken a wrong turn even more. I gained a little new interest after the release of Crazy Nights but it took until Revenge before the fire started burning again.

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Re: Would VVs' Animalize have been one of KISS' best selling albums?

Post by Wiped Out 78 » Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:30 am

nfarend wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:22 am
Animalize made me stop being a fan for years. When I bought the album I was heavily disappointed. Didn't even wanna go see the tour and lost interest for years.
Same here. Loved the Carr/Vincent lineup almost as much as the originals. When that fell apart, I was pretty much done.

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Re: Would VVs' Animalize have been one of KISS' best selling albums?

Post by C » Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:35 am

Wiped Out 78 wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:30 am
nfarend wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:22 am
Animalize made me stop being a fan for years. When I bought the album I was heavily disappointed. Didn't even wanna go see the tour and lost interest for years.
Same here. Loved the Carr/Vincent lineup almost as much as the originals. When that fell apart, I was pretty much done.
That lineup gave them raw power, menacing dark vibes, here we are ready to kill, they became aggressive again, no one can stop them attitude

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Re: Would VVs' Animalize have been one of KISS' best selling albums?

Post by nfarend » Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:44 am

C wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:35 am
Wiped Out 78 wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:30 am
nfarend wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:22 am
Animalize made me stop being a fan for years. When I bought the album I was heavily disappointed. Didn't even wanna go see the tour and lost interest for years.
Same here. Loved the Carr/Vincent lineup almost as much as the originals. When that fell apart, I was pretty much done.
That lineup gave them raw power, menacing dark vibes, here we are ready to kill, they became aggressive again, no one can stop them attitude
Yep, although I never really cared for Eric Carr as a drummer or as a singer. But I do remember VV's guitarsolo in Brussels 1983 from the LIU tour. It was mayhem, as if WW III had just begun. Over the top, very aggressive. I loved it! Though at the same time I was disappointed that unmasked KISS had become just a regular rock band and I was more of an originals fan. Still am.
Except for the Revenge and COS era, I never cared for Bruce Kulicks interpretation of Kiss songs either. So that mid 80's era was a waste of time in KISS land imho.

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Re: Would VVs' Animalize have been one of KISS' best selling albums?

Post by Thunderous_Lay » Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:53 am

Gotta admit, few things in the world were as menacing-looking as KISS, circa late-1983...

Image

Just look at Gene; isn't he channeling unfiltered, unchecked menace ?

Better yet, just look at Cusano: scary vibes right there...




















Seriously ?

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Re: Would VVs' Animalize have been one of KISS' best selling albums?

Post by EggFlip » Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:04 am

In reply to the sphinx staying chrysalis were incompetent well they certainly were not incompetent in selling millions of slaughter albums with the same team.
highvoltage1969 wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:18 am
TheSphinx wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:14 am
Red_Walrus wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:55 am
I got a few questions.What would Animalize looked like if VV stayed. What songs off VV Invasion would have made it.I think it would have been huge. Pauls songs were great and he had the hit with "HOF" but if VV could have bolstered up Genes songs and also included some of his own it would have been killer. Anyone have a playlist of what could have been?
It would have been huge! "Animalize" basically shipped platinum due to the strength of "Lick It Up". Of course there was the 90 day window in place at the time. And it was certified Platinum on Dec 3, 1984 & released Sept 1, 1984.

"Lick It Up" was already past 1M in sales before "Animalize" came out. It's sad to be past 2M in sales.Lick It Up is far more beloved. It ranks in most Top 10 best Kiss albums of all time. Usually ranks as the best or 2nd best Kiss album from 1980-Forward (with it switching places with COTN) which is basically another Vinnie album.

Had Vinnie been around for that album and tour it is what they would have needed for them to be back on top.

I think without a doubt, they would have dropped most of the "classic songs" and they would have been playing mainly material from COTN, LICK IT UP and the new album. They wouldn't have had to rely on the past. Metal-N-Roll would have been here to stay.6 songs from "Lick It Up" were played during at least 44 of the shows on that tour. "All Hells Breaking Loose" 54. Exciter 44. Lick It Up, Young and Wasted, Gimme More, Fits Like a Glove all over 90 times.Also 4 songs from COTN were part of the regular set list: I Love It Loud, Creatures, War Machine, I Still Love You.They could have easily kept those 10 songs for the set list of Animalize and added 4-5 more from Animalize and just done "Rock & Roll Alnight" and maybe 1 other "classic Kiss" song. They could have also switched out "A Million To One" for "I Still Love You" and it would have gone over huge.

Animalize was a mediocre album with only one really strong song. Heavens On Fire. And HOF is still no "Lick It Up". Everyone knows Lick It Up. You look at how many times Kiss has been on late night, American Idol, you name it and usually "Lick It Up" is one of the songs they play.

And why did Asylum fail to ship platinum? Because Animalize wasn't very strong. Most albums are sold initially based on the one before it. There can be other factors but . .That's why reason Vinnie Vincent Invasion sold so well. Why it was the fastest selling album in the history of Chrysalis. And it only had one single/video to prmote it. Yet, by the time of "All Systems Go" release it was right around 500,000.

And the strength of "Invasion" of course led to far more publicity, bigger ad bugets etc. That's why "All Systems Go" was already at 500,000 units with 2 1/2 months. Of course, All Systems Go probably could have done 2-3X platinum had it not been for alot of the ineptitude at Chrysalis. If the album had come out when it was originally supposed to, Vinnie Vincent Invasion would have had the opening slot on the Aerosmith Permanent Vacation tour.

Also, Chrysalis management was so incompetent back then they thought it was too expensive to put out two different versions of the same album. They could have easily released a "Full Shredd" version of "All Systems Go" and a more radio friendly version. Which would have sold incredibly well and most Kiss/Vinnie fans would have picked up both versions. They could have kept Vinnie happy and also had more mainstream success. But not doing that. Getting Dana & Mark to go behind Vinnie's back and remix more "radio friendly" versions was not the thing to do.

And people go well, Vinnie didn't "officially" get RIAA awards. Or they bring up nonsense like where it placed highest on Billboard like that meant anything. Like Billboard figures were based on reality. All you've got to do is look at Smashes, Trashes & Hits to see how short it was on the charts etc but yet. And of course whether you had a video or a new single, tour all played a factor.People bring up Slaughter and their success.

Of course SITY was basically the third VVI release. Same record company. You name it. Mark & Dana from VVI. They had the entire Vinnie Vincent fan club list etc. All those street teamers were basically VVI fans. Why do you think Up All Night was on Dial MTV from Day 1 and stayed there. Slaughter had already been offered the opening tour slot on the "Hot In The Shade" tour before their album was even released. Why do you think Kiss did that?

Both VVI albums are said to be around 1M copies each. Which wouldn't be surprising with Stick It To Ya being close to 3M. Of course we will hear but soundscan doesn't have it doing such and such. People act like soundscan of today was the same as it was back in the early 90's when it didn't count sames from some of the largest places. Soundscan didn't count record club sales at all. And of course, alot of people got those Vinnie albums on CD during that time period.

Look how bad Asylum did. You didn't see it ship platinum. They spent more money on videos trying to push that album. That one got 3 and it still didn't sell well. And because Asylum did so poorly it went to the "two year plan" on Crazy Nights. The one thing that did help KISS during the time was they began to play up the nostalgia again. The makeup times were back thanks to eXposed being released prior to CN coming out. Crazy Nights can't be looked upon as any success at all. The tour was hemorrhaging money they couldn't even afford to keep paying a keyboard player to stay on tour with them. And they had to pay Ted Nugent decent bucks to help fill some seats.

So what came next? An album that is basically demos. One that had sold so poorly, Chrysalis did a survey during the HITS tour trying to figure out why people weren't buying KISS albums. Yes, "Forever" as a $1.50 cassingle sold well but it didn't move albums.

What was KISS left with? Going back to Vinnie. Revenge is around 1M in sales. Even if you go by the soundscan figures (which missed a ton of sales on its initial release and doesnt' account for record club sales), Revenge is still the best KISS selling album from 1989 forward. It's timing of course was hurt by grunge. The delay of the Revenge tour also hurt it subtantially. Using Faster Pussycat and some of the other opening acts on that tour certainly didn't help things. And there was no Slaughter or Winger to help put a ton of butts in the seats like KISS had on the HITS tour.

Revenge could have been substantially better if they had used more Vinnie songs on it. But at least Vinnie got KISS BACK on track just like he did with COTN. KISS' direction prior to Vinnie was not good (as evidenced by the early COTN sessions which wound up on "Killers"). And Bruce Kulick got set down because his playing wasn't up to snuff.

If anyone is honest, they will admit the 3 best KISS albums from 1977-on are COTN, LICK IT UP and REVENGE.

KISS is lucky the reunion happened because "Carnival Of Grunge" would have put them to playing 1,000 seaters


Whatever you want to say about Vinnie and his output since All Systems Go, the fact is undeniable that he was by far the 3rd most important songwriter to KISS (Behind Gene and Paul). That Metal-N-Roll put KISS back on top after KISS had buried themselves 3 feet under.

Maybe Vinnie can't save himself, but he sure saved KISS.

It's a shame Paul's ego was too huge and they were too cheap to pay Vinnie accordingly. They really cost themselves a ton of money they could have had from 1984 up to at least the mid 90's. They'd probably still own their publishing and wouldn't have had to sell that off just to keep afloat.
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Re: Would VVs' Animalize have been one of KISS' best selling albums?

Post by EggFlip » Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:07 am

The term fastest selling album in the history of chrysalis means nothing. What time span. It could have been one guy bought it the second it hit the shops. That would also mean it's the fastest selling album in the history of chrysalis. It's a record company spin term they used to sell the album just like vv said he didn't have mark slaughters phone number or he would have hired him over robert and just like he said he ran his pink Jackson under the tour bus when jn fact he just had it resprayed

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Re: Would VVs' Animalize have been one of KISS' best selling albums?

Post by LordThurisaz » Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:38 am

EggFlip wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:07 am
The term fastest selling album in the history of chrysalis means nothing. What time span. It could have been one guy bought it the second it hit the shops. That would also mean it's the fastest selling album in the history of chrysalis. It's a record company spin term they used to sell the album just like vv said he didn't have mark slaughters phone number or he would have hired him over robert and just like he said he ran his pink Jackson under the tour bus when jn fact he just had it resprayed
I highly doubt his dreck sold faster than Billy Idol.

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Re: Would VVs' Animalize have been one of KISS' best selling albums?

Post by LordThurisaz » Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:40 am

Stanley! You look so cute wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:12 am
Vinnie's guitar playing was already sounding dated by the time Animalize came out, and he was a terrible fit for the band live. All of the fans I knew at the time hated his playing and said he ruined the LIU tour. If you listen to any recordings from that tour now, Vinnie's playing sounds absolutely ridiculous.

Overall I prefer Animalize to Lick It Up. Under The Gun, Thrills In The Night and Heaven's on Fire are way stronger than anything off LIU, and with Bruce onboard they had a much more tasteful and appropriate guitarist for the tour.

The Vinnie era is just a blip in Kisstory that a lot of us would rather forget.
This. LIU is overrated to the third power.

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