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I got a few questions.

What would Animalize looked like if VV stayed. What songs off VV Invasion would have made it.

I think it would have been huge. Pauls songs were great and he had the hit with "HOF" but if VV could have bolstered up Genes songs and also included some of his own it would have been killer. Anyone have a playlist of what could have been?

“THE INVASION OF ANIMALIZE”

SIDE ONE
1. I’ve Had Enough (Into the Fire)
2. Heaven’s On Fire
3. I Wanna Be Your Victim (Gene vocals)
4. No Substitute (Paul vocals)
5. Animal (Eric vocals)

SIDE TWO
1. Do You Wanna Make Love (Paul vocals)
2. Burn Bitch Burn
3. Back On The Streets (Vinnie and Paul vocals)
4. While The City Sleeps
5. Twisted (Gene vocals)

KISS naming the album Animalize, and VVI having a song called Animal seems way too coincidental. I think they had hoped to keep working with Vinnie on Animalize, but VV wouldn't sign the contract.

Back on the Streets could have been a killer KISS tune, and Gene and Paul reigning in Vinnie's playing would have made the songs listenable.

ObiWanFrehley wrote: ↑Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:43 am KISS naming the album Animalize, and VVI having a song called Animal seems way too coincidental.

They did the same thing for Revenge, that was Vinnie's Guitars from hell working title

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

"Heaven's On Fire" is Paul ripping off Vinnie. It's almost like Paul's gone to Desmond "Our songwriter's gone, help me write me one he'd write."

Those lyrics are pure Vinnie. Did he leave the band with some lyric ideas or something?

Hot boiling blood, kneeling devils, skies painted with desire - this is all the beautiful demented imagery of Vinnie Vincent.

And yes, Animalize would've been bonkers huge if Vinnie had hung around.

Where's Drago? wrote: ↑Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:29 pm I've said it before and I'll say it again:

"Heaven's On Fire" is Paul ripping off Vinnie. It's almost like Paul's gone to Desmond "Our songwriter's gone, help me write me one he'd write."

Those lyrics are pure Vinnie. Did he leave the band with some lyric ideas or something?

Hot boiling blood, kneeling devils, skies painted with desire - this is all the beautiful demented imagery of Vinnie Vincent.

And yes, Animalize would've been bonkers huge if Vinnie had hung around.

Lick It Up wasn't "bonkers huge".

Vinnie Vincent Invasion wasn't "bonkers huge".

All Systems Go wasn't "bonkers huge".

Hell, not even Creatures of the Night, which I love BTW, was "bonkers huge".

Why would Animalize with Cusano be "bonkers huge" ?

I mean, am I missing something here ?

sneed78 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:34 am “THE INVASION OF ANIMALIZE”

SIDE ONE
1. I’ve Had Enough (Into the Fire)
2. Heaven’s On Fire
3. I Wanna Be Your Victim (Gene vocals)
4. No Substitute (Paul vocals)
5. Animal (Eric vocals)

SIDE TWO
1. Do You Wanna Make Love (Paul vocals)
2. Burn Bitch Burn
3. Back On The Streets (Vinnie and Paul vocals)
4. While The City Sleeps
5. Twisted (Gene vocals)

nice list

Don't you think I Wanna be your Victim would fit Pauls' vocals better? I would fit Thrills in the Night in there somehow. VV does the vocals for Back on the Streets perfectly, who you have them trade verses or Paul on the chorus. I wonder if Paul would feel threatened by another good singer in his range.

Thunderous_Lay wrote: ↑Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:38 pm

Where's Drago? wrote: ↑Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:29 pm I've said it before and I'll say it again:

"Heaven's On Fire" is Paul ripping off Vinnie. It's almost like Paul's gone to Desmond "Our songwriter's gone, help me write me one he'd write."

Those lyrics are pure Vinnie. Did he leave the band with some lyric ideas or something?

Hot boiling blood, kneeling devils, skies painted with desire - this is all the beautiful demented imagery of Vinnie Vincent.

And yes, Animalize would've been bonkers huge if Vinnie had hung around.

Lick It Up wasn't "bonkers huge".

Vinnie Vincent Invasion wasn't "bonkers huge".

All Systems Go wasn't "bonkers huge".

Hell, not even Creatures of the Night, which I love BTW, was "bonkers huge".

Why would Animalize with Cusano be "bonkers huge" ?

I mean, am I missing something here ?

Momentum.

Animalize already sold more than any other KISS album since Dynasty. But it was shit. The effort KISS had put into the band was beginning to bear fruit. Lick It Up absolutely opened the door for Animalize. But Animalize never had the songs. From that point on, KISS stalled. Until, of course, Vinnie wrote the lead single from Revenge...

U.S. Charts:
Dynasty : #9
Unmasked : #35 (down 26)
The Elder : #75 (down 40)
Creatures : #45 (up 30)
Lick It Up : #24 (up 21)
Animalize : #19 (up 5)
Asylum : #20 (down 1)
Crazy Nights : #18 (up 2)
Revenge : #6 (up 12)

3 albums had way better performances than their counterparts: Creatures, Lick It Up and Revenge.

Those 3 albums all required Vinnie.

And Vinnie required KISS.

This isn't hyperbole, it's Egyptian WIZardry.

I think it would have been a much stronger record with his input. That said, would it have sold significantly better than 1x Platinum.....probably not....honestly. I do think that Back on the Streets w/ Paul & VV duet could have broke Top 40 on the Hot 100....but like Forever...not sure it would have translated into more LP sales.

Lettuce be honest here: it's Vinnie we're talking about.

This thread is full of all types of window dressing.

Vinnie may think he's the Chef, or the Caesar, but he's not.

It's best if topics like this just stay home on the ranch.

Crown Royal wrote: ↑Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:07 pm Lettuce be honest here: it's Vinnie we're talking about.

This thread is full of all types of window dressing.

Vinnie may think he's the Chef, or the Caesar, but he's not.

It's best if topics like this just stay home on the ranch.

Amen
So done with the VV threads

Crown Royal wrote: ↑Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:07 pm Lettuce be honest here: it's Vinnie we're talking about.

This thread is full of all types of window dressing.

Vinnie may think he's the Chef, or the Caesar, but he's not.

It's best if topics like this just stay home on the ranch.

Paul refused to allow lettuce to go flying out into the audience - - out of respect for the fans - - he had just had enough.

Crown Royal wrote: ↑Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:07 pm Lettuce be honest here: it's Vinnie we're talking about.

This thread is full of all types of window dressing.

Vinnie may think he's the Chef, or the Caesar, but he's not.

It's best if topics like this just stay home on the ranch.

Salad ... Food Trucks ... Pumas ... Paintings ... Paintings of Pumas ... when I log on, I expect the unexpected.

Animalize wouldnt have seen Viinie unleashed, by any means. But being in top form, as he was then, the record might've been an even bigger hit. I'm willing to accept that possibility.

As pointed out VVI was not a mega hit, So simply adding a few Vinnie Vincent songs into the “animalize” mix would not have change the albums popularity by much, if at all.

I think if anything it would be a new collaborations that at this point do not exist or “mash-ups” so to speak, that we can only speculate on, that might have made a difference in the sales.

“Heavens on fire” was a moderate hit and got a lot of video play on MTV, but I think for the “speculative Animalize” to do better than the one that we actually got it would’ve needed to have songs that were more popular & catchier then “heavens on fire” ... thus songs that at the time of the KISS/VV Split did not exist.

If Vinnie stayed with KISS and they kept the same song writing formula as they had on “LICK IT UP” (G&P co-writing practically every song w/Vinnie) then we might have gotten a “Animalize” better than what we actually got.

The majority of the sales of “Animalize” was based on “Lick It Up” coming before it.
A similar thing happened with AC/DC “For Those About To Rock...” initially selling great based of the success of “Black In Black”.

Red_Walrus wrote: ↑Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:40 pm

sneed78 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:34 am “THE INVASION OF ANIMALIZE”

SIDE ONE
1. I’ve Had Enough (Into the Fire)
2. Heaven’s On Fire
3. I Wanna Be Your Victim (Gene vocals)
4. No Substitute (Paul vocals)
5. Animal (Eric vocals)

SIDE TWO
1. Do You Wanna Make Love (Paul vocals)
2. Burn Bitch Burn
3. Back On The Streets (Vinnie and Paul vocals)
4. While The City Sleeps
5. Twisted (Gene vocals)

nice list

Don't you think I Wanna be your Victim would fit Pauls' vocals better? I would fit Thrills in the Night in there somehow. VV does the vocals for Back on the Streets perfectly, who you have them trade verses or Paul on the chorus. I wonder if Paul would feel threatened by another good singer in his range.

Yes I could hear Paul on Victim but also Gene taking it in a grittier, Killer or Young & Wasted vibe.

I love Thrills In The Night but my thinking was that Paul probably wouldn’t have wondered off to other writers if Vinnie stuck around.

I agree, Vinnie’s demo with him singing Back on the Streets was the definitive version imo. Paul would have definitely felt threatened as good as Vinnie sounded on those vocals and, at the most, would’ve maybe let Vinnie sing a chorus or two (if that). I even remember reading somewhere that Paul said that song was meant for Vinnie’s voice and that’s probably why it never ended up on a Kiss record...

Under the Gun is utter pretentious crap. But there's NO SUBSTITUTE for any of Gene's songs, which are all great.

I would LOVE to have heard Animalize with Vinnie's playing and songwriting input.

Where's Drago? wrote: ↑Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:57 pmMomentum.

Animalize already sold more than any other KISS album since Dynasty. But it was shit.

... yeahhh, I'm sorry but I stopped reading there.

Animalize may be flawed but next to Lick It Up, it's a f*ckin' masterpiece. It's almost as if the band got its testicles reattached after Lick It Up's pussified sound.

Also, both Animalize and Asylum went platinum in North America, while Cusano literally went nowhere, and to make matters worse, Slaughter's debut actually went multi-platinum.

It feels as if, I dunno... Cusano drags everything and everyone around him.

Not sure if Animalize would have done any better than it already did with Vinnie. I think the songs may have been more solid with Vinnie, because this was when Gene was starting to phone it in.

It would've been a better album with Vinnie.

As to whether it would have sold any more, who knows?

I couldn't care less what Animalize sold for real or what it would have sold had Vinnie stayed, that kind of stuff is pretty irrelevant to me

Plus I love Animalize exactly as it is

But I would have been very intrigued to hear another Kiss LP with Vinnie's songwriting involvement for sure

Aside from I've Had Enough, Heavens on Fire, and Thrills in the Night, I don't really care for the album much. Under the Gun quickly became the piss break song at KISS shows from the Animalize till Asylum tours.

I don't know, but I would have loved at least one more album with Vinnie.

I think it would *shrugs*

What had Vinnie done to make it a huge album? None of his solo albums sold well. He didn’t write any hits on the solo albums. Paul wrote the 1 song on Animalize that was played on MTV and helped the album sell half decent.

Nothing Vinnie did or wrote would have made it bigger. In his whole career Vinnie was never part of a huge hit album, but all of a sudden if he was on Animalize it would have become one? Ya right.

Red_Walrus wrote: ↑Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:55 amI got a few questions.What would Animalize looked like if VV stayed. What songs off VV Invasion would have made it.I think it would have been huge. Pauls songs were great and he had the hit with "HOF" but if VV could have bolstered up Genes songs and also included some of his own it would have been killer. Anyone have a playlist of what could have been?

It would have been huge! "Animalize" basically shipped platinum due to the strength of "Lick It Up". Of course there was the 90 day window in place at the time. And it was certified Platinum on Dec 3, 1984 & released Sept 1, 1984.

"Lick It Up" was already past 1M in sales before "Animalize" came out. It's sad to be past 2M in sales.Lick It Up is far more beloved. It ranks in most Top 10 best Kiss albums of all time. Usually ranks as the best or 2nd best Kiss album from 1980-Forward (with it switching places with COTN) which is basically another Vinnie album.

Had Vinnie been around for that album and tour it is what they would have needed for them to be back on top.

I think without a doubt, they would have dropped most of the "classic songs" and they would have been playing mainly material from COTN, LICK IT UP and the new album. They wouldn't have had to rely on the past. Metal-N-Roll would have been here to stay.6 songs from "Lick It Up" were played during at least 44 of the shows on that tour. "All Hells Breaking Loose" 54. Exciter 44. Lick It Up, Young and Wasted, Gimme More, Fits Like a Glove all over 90 times.Also 4 songs from COTN were part of the regular set list: I Love It Loud, Creatures, War Machine, I Still Love You.They could have easily kept those 10 songs for the set list of Animalize and added 4-5 more from Animalize and just done "Rock & Roll Alnight" and maybe 1 other "classic Kiss" song. They could have also switched out "A Million To One" for "I Still Love You" and it would have gone over huge.

Animalize was a mediocre album with only one really strong song. Heavens On Fire. And HOF is still no "Lick It Up". Everyone knows Lick It Up. You look at how many times Kiss has been on late night, American Idol, you name it and usually "Lick It Up" is one of the songs they play.

And why did Asylum fail to ship platinum? Because Animalize wasn't very strong. Most albums are sold initially based on the one before it. There can be other factors but . .That's why reason Vinnie Vincent Invasion sold so well. Why it was the fastest selling DEBUT (edit:added) album in the history of Chrysalis. And it only had one single/video to prmote it. Yet, by the time of "All Systems Go" release it was right around 500,000.

And the strength of "Invasion" of course led to far more publicity, bigger ad budgets etc. That's why "All Systems Go" was already at 500,000 units with 2 1/2 months. Of course, All Systems Go probably could have done 2-3X platinum had it not been for alot of the ineptitude at Chrysalis. If the album had come out when it was originally supposed to, Vinnie Vincent Invasion would have had the opening slot on the Aerosmith Permanent Vacation tour.

Also, Chrysalis management was so incompetent back then they thought it was too expensive to put out two different versions of the same album. They could have easily released a "Full Shredd" version of "All Systems Go" and a more radio friendly version. Which would have sold incredibly well and most Kiss/Vinnie fans would have picked up both versions. They could have kept Vinnie happy and also had more mainstream success. But not doing that. Getting Dana & Mark to go behind Vinnie's back and remix more "radio friendly" versions was not the thing to do.

And people go well, Vinnie didn't "officially" get RIAA awards. Or they bring up nonsense like where it placed highest on Billboard like that meant anything. Like Billboard figures were based on reality. All you've got to do is look at Smashes, Trashes & Hits to see how short it was on the charts etc but yet. And of course whether you had a video or a new single, tour all played a factor.People bring up Slaughter and their success.

Of course SITY was basically the third VVI release. Same record company. You name it. Mark & Dana from VVI. They had the entire Vinnie Vincent fan club list etc. All those street teamers were basically VVI fans. Why do you think Up All Night was on Dial MTV from Day 1 and stayed there. Slaughter had already been offered the opening tour slot on the "Hot In The Shade" tour before their album was even released. Why do you think Kiss did that?

Both VVI albums are said to be around 1M copies each. Which wouldn't be surprising with Stick It To Ya being close to 3M. Of course we will hear but soundscan doesn't have it doing such and such. People act like soundscan of today was the same as it was back in the early 90's when it didn't count sames from some of the largest places. Soundscan didn't count record club sales at all. And of course, alot of people got those Vinnie albums on CD during that time period.

Look how bad Asylum did. You didn't see it ship platinum. They spent more money on videos trying to push that album. That one got 3 and it still didn't sell well. And because Asylum did so poorly it went to the "two year plan" on Crazy Nights. The one thing that did help KISS during the time was they began to play up the nostalgia again. The makeup times were back thanks to eXposed being released prior to CN coming out. Crazy Nights can't be looked upon as any success at all. The tour was hemorrhaging money they couldn't even afford to keep paying a keyboard player to stay on tour with them. And they had to pay Ted Nugent decent bucks to help fill some seats.

So what came next? An album that is basically demos. One that had sold so poorly, Chrysalis did a survey during the HITS tour trying to figure out why people weren't buying KISS albums. Yes, "Forever" as a $1.50 cassingle sold well but it didn't move albums.

What was KISS left with? Going back to Vinnie. Revenge is around 1M in sales. Even if you go by the soundscan figures (which missed a ton of sales on its initial release and doesnt' account for record club sales), Revenge is still the best KISS selling album from 1989 forward. It's timing of course was hurt by grunge. The delay of the Revenge tour also hurt it subtantially. Using Faster Pussycat and some of the other opening acts on that tour certainly didn't help things. And there was no Slaughter or Winger to help put a ton of butts in the seats like KISS had on the HITS tour.

Revenge could have been substantially better if they had used more Vinnie songs on it. But at least Vinnie got KISS BACK on track just like he did with COTN. KISS' direction prior to Vinnie was not good (as evidenced by the early COTN sessions which wound up on "Killers"). And Bruce Kulick got set down because his playing wasn't up to snuff.

If anyone is honest, they will admit the 3 best KISS albums from 1977-on are COTN, LICK IT UP and REVENGE.

KISS is lucky the reunion happened because "Carnival Of Grunge" would have put them to playing 1,000 seaters


Whatever you want to say about Vinnie and his output since All Systems Go, the fact is undeniable that he was by far the 3rd most important songwriter to KISS (Behind Gene and Paul). That Metal-N-Roll put KISS back on top after KISS had buried themselves 3 feet under.

Maybe Vinnie can't save himself, but he sure saved KISS.

It's a shame Paul's ego was too huge and they were too cheap to pay Vinnie accordingly. They really cost themselves a ton of money they could have had from 1984 up to at least the mid 90's. They'd probably still own their publishing and wouldn't have had to sell that off just to keep afloat.

Thunderous_Lay wrote: ↑Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:48 am

Where's Drago? wrote: ↑Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:57 pmMomentum.

Animalize already sold more than any other KISS album since Dynasty. But it was shit.

... yeahhh, I'm sorry but I stopped reading there.

Animalize may be flawed but next to Lick It Up, it's a f*ckin' masterpiece. It's almost as if the band got its testicles reattached after Lick It Up's pussified sound.

Also, both Animalize and Asylum went platinum in North America, while Cusano literally went nowhere, and to make matters worse, Slaughter's debut actually went multi-platinum.

It feels as if, I dunno... Cusano drags everything and everyone around him.

This is what you call #FakeNews.

Animalize shipped platinum based on the strength of Lick It Up.

Asylum has never been certified platinum. It was a huge failure. And brought about the "2 year plan". I would imagine it is now past 1M in sales.

And yes, Slaughter sold well, but that was basically the 3rd VVI album for them. Why do you think it did so well? Why do you think they were offered the opening tour slot on the HITS tour before their album had even come out.

Look who's back , nice to see you pop in Sphinxie.

Where's Drago? wrote: ↑Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:57 pm

Thunderous_Lay wrote: ↑Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:38 pm

Where's Drago? wrote: ↑Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:29 pm I've said it before and I'll say it again:

"Heaven's On Fire" is Paul ripping off Vinnie. It's almost like Paul's gone to Desmond "Our songwriter's gone, help me write me one he'd write."

Those lyrics are pure Vinnie. Did he leave the band with some lyric ideas or something?

Hot boiling blood, kneeling devils, skies painted with desire - this is all the beautiful demented imagery of Vinnie Vincent.

And yes, Animalize would've been bonkers huge if Vinnie had hung around.

Lick It Up wasn't "bonkers huge".

Vinnie Vincent Invasion wasn't "bonkers huge".

All Systems Go wasn't "bonkers huge".

Hell, not even Creatures of the Night, which I love BTW, was "bonkers huge".

Why would Animalize with Cusano be "bonkers huge" ?

I mean, am I missing something here ?

Momentum.

Animalize already sold more than any other KISS album since Dynasty. But it was shit. The effort KISS had put into the band was beginning to bear fruit. Lick It Up absolutely opened the door for Animalize. But Animalize never had the songs. From that point on, KISS stalled. Until, of course, Vinnie wrote the lead single from Revenge...

U.S. Charts:
Dynasty : #9
Unmasked : #35 (down 26)
The Elder : #75 (down 40)
Creatures : #45 (up 30)
Lick It Up : #24 (up 21)
Animalize : #19 (up 5)
Asylum : #20 (down 1)
Crazy Nights : #18 (up 2)
Revenge : #6 (up 12)

3 albums had way better performances than their counterparts: Creatures, Lick It Up and Revenge.

Those 3 albums all required Vinnie.

And Vinnie required KISS.

This isn't hyperbole, it's Egyptian WIZardry.

And Vinnie never wrote a good song without the help of Gene and Paul, so what's your point.

Where's Drago? wrote: ↑Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:57 pm

Thunderous_Lay wrote: ↑Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:38 pm

Where's Drago? wrote: ↑Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:29 pm I've said it before and I'll say it again:

"Heaven's On Fire" is Paul ripping off Vinnie. It's almost like Paul's gone to Desmond "Our songwriter's gone, help me write me one he'd write."

Those lyrics are pure Vinnie. Did he leave the band with some lyric ideas or something?

Hot boiling blood, kneeling devils, skies painted with desire - this is all the beautiful demented imagery of Vinnie Vincent.

And yes, Animalize would've been bonkers huge if Vinnie had hung around.

Lick It Up wasn't "bonkers huge".

Vinnie Vincent Invasion wasn't "bonkers huge".

All Systems Go wasn't "bonkers huge".

Hell, not even Creatures of the Night, which I love BTW, was "bonkers huge".

Why would Animalize with Cusano be "bonkers huge" ?

I mean, am I missing something here ?

Momentum.

Animalize already sold more than any other KISS album since Dynasty. But it was shit. The effort KISS had put into the band was beginning to bear fruit. Lick It Up absolutely opened the door for Animalize. But Animalize never had the songs. From that point on, KISS stalled. Until, of course, Vinnie wrote the lead single from Revenge...

U.S. Charts:
Dynasty : #9
Unmasked : #35 (down 26)
The Elder : #75 (down 40)
Creatures : #45 (up 30)
Lick It Up : #24 (up 21)
Animalize : #19 (up 5)
Asylum : #20 (down 1)
Crazy Nights : #18 (up 2)
Revenge : #6 (up 12)

3 albums had way better performances than their counterparts: Creatures, Lick It Up and Revenge.

Those 3 albums all required Vinnie.

And Vinnie required KISS.

This isn't hyperbole, it's Egyptian WIZardry.

Like chart position back then meant much of anything. By your logic Animalize, Asylum, Crazy Nights and Revenge all did better than Smashes Trashes and Hits.

kissthat wrote: ↑Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:18 am Look who's back , nice to see you pop in Sphinxie.

Thanks. I'm going to pop back out now but I couldn't resist this one.

All Hail The Egyptian Warrior!

TheSphinx wrote: ↑Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:35 am

kissthat wrote: ↑Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:18 am Look who's back , nice to see you pop in Sphinxie.

Thanks. I'm going to pop back out now but I couldn't resist this one.

All Hail The Egyptian Warrior!

Sphinxie! As I live and breathe!

TheSphinx wrote: ↑Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:34 am

Where's Drago? wrote: ↑Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:57 pm

Thunderous_Lay wrote: ↑Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:38 pm

Where's Drago? wrote: ↑Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:29 pm I've said it before and I'll say it again:

"Heaven's On Fire" is Paul ripping off Vinnie. It's almost like Paul's gone to Desmond "Our songwriter's gone, help me write me one he'd write."

Those lyrics are pure Vinnie. Did he leave the band with some lyric ideas or something?

Hot boiling blood, kneeling devils, skies painted with desire - this is all the beautiful demented imagery of Vinnie Vincent.

And yes, Animalize would've been bonkers huge if Vinnie had hung around.

Lick It Up wasn't "bonkers huge".

Vinnie Vincent Invasion wasn't "bonkers huge".

All Systems Go wasn't "bonkers huge".

Hell, not even Creatures of the Night, which I love BTW, was "bonkers huge".

Why would Animalize with Cusano be "bonkers huge" ?

I mean, am I missing something here ?

Momentum.

Animalize already sold more than any other KISS album since Dynasty. But it was shit. The effort KISS had put into the band was beginning to bear fruit. Lick It Up absolutely opened the door for Animalize. But Animalize never had the songs. From that point on, KISS stalled. Until, of course, Vinnie wrote the lead single from Revenge...

U.S. Charts:
Dynasty : #9
Unmasked : #35 (down 26)
The Elder : #75 (down 40)
Creatures : #45 (up 30)
Lick It Up : #24 (up 21)
Animalize : #19 (up 5)
Asylum : #20 (down 1)
Crazy Nights : #18 (up 2)
Revenge : #6 (up 12)

3 albums had way better performances than their counterparts: Creatures, Lick It Up and Revenge.

Those 3 albums all required Vinnie.

And Vinnie required KISS.

This isn't hyperbole, it's Egyptian WIZardry.

Like chart position back then meant much of anything. By your logic Animalize, Asylum, Crazy Nights and Revenge all did better than Smashes Trashes and Hits.

No-one's claiming use of logic here. Certainly not me. I think I may have even called it wizardry.

TheSphinx wrote: ↑Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:14 am

Red_Walrus wrote: ↑Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:55 amI got a few questions.What would Animalize looked like if VV stayed. What songs off VV Invasion would have made it.I think it would have been huge. Pauls songs were great and he had the hit with "HOF" but if VV could have bolstered up Genes songs and also included some of his own it would have been killer. Anyone have a playlist of what could have been?

It would have been huge! "Animalize" basically shipped platinum due to the strength of "Lick It Up". Of course there was the 90 day window in place at the time. And it was certified Platinum on Dec 3, 1984 & released Sept 1, 1984.

"Lick It Up" was already past 1M in sales before "Animalize" came out. It's sad to be past 2M in sales.Lick It Up is far more beloved. It ranks in most Top 10 best Kiss albums of all time. Usually ranks as the best or 2nd best Kiss album from 1980-Forward (with it switching places with COTN) which is basically another Vinnie album.

Had Vinnie been around for that album and tour it is what they would have needed for them to be back on top.

I think without a doubt, they would have dropped most of the "classic songs" and they would have been playing mainly material from COTN, LICK IT UP and the new album. They wouldn't have had to rely on the past. Metal-N-Roll would have been here to stay.6 songs from "Lick It Up" were played during at least 44 of the shows on that tour. "All Hells Breaking Loose" 54. Exciter 44. Lick It Up, Young and Wasted, Gimme More, Fits Like a Glove all over 90 times.Also 4 songs from COTN were part of the regular set list: I Love It Loud, Creatures, War Machine, I Still Love You.They could have easily kept those 10 songs for the set list of Animalize and added 4-5 more from Animalize and just done "Rock & Roll Alnight" and maybe 1 other "classic Kiss" song. They could have also switched out "A Million To One" for "I Still Love You" and it would have gone over huge.

Animalize was a mediocre album with only one really strong song. Heavens On Fire. And HOF is still no "Lick It Up". Everyone knows Lick It Up. You look at how many times Kiss has been on late night, American Idol, you name it and usually "Lick It Up" is one of the songs they play.

And why did Asylum fail to ship platinum? Because Animalize wasn't very strong. Most albums are sold initially based on the one before it. There can be other factors but . .That's why reason Vinnie Vincent Invasion sold so well. Why it was the fastest selling album in the history of Chrysalis. And it only had one single/video to prmote it. Yet, by the time of "All Systems Go" release it was right around 500,000.

And the strength of "Invasion" of course led to far more publicity, bigger ad bugets etc. That's why "All Systems Go" was already at 500,000 units with 2 1/2 months. Of course, All Systems Go probably could have done 2-3X platinum had it not been for alot of the ineptitude at Chrysalis. If the album had come out when it was originally supposed to, Vinnie Vincent Invasion would have had the opening slot on the Aerosmith Permanent Vacation tour.

Also, Chrysalis management was so incompetent back then they thought it was too expensive to put out two different versions of the same album. They could have easily released a "Full Shredd" version of "All Systems Go" and a more radio friendly version. Which would have sold incredibly well and most Kiss/Vinnie fans would have picked up both versions. They could have kept Vinnie happy and also had more mainstream success. But not doing that. Getting Dana & Mark to go behind Vinnie's back and remix more "radio friendly" versions was not the thing to do.

And people go well, Vinnie didn't "officially" get RIAA awards. Or they bring up nonsense like where it placed highest on Billboard like that meant anything. Like Billboard figures were based on reality. All you've got to do is look at Smashes, Trashes & Hits to see how short it was on the charts etc but yet. And of course whether you had a video or a new single, tour all played a factor.People bring up Slaughter and their success.

Of course SITY was basically the third VVI release. Same record company. You name it. Mark & Dana from VVI. They had the entire Vinnie Vincent fan club list etc. All those street teamers were basically VVI fans. Why do you think Up All Night was on Dial MTV from Day 1 and stayed there. Slaughter had already been offered the opening tour slot on the "Hot In The Shade" tour before their album was even released. Why do you think Kiss did that?

Both VVI albums are said to be around 1M copies each. Which wouldn't be surprising with Stick It To Ya being close to 3M. Of course we will hear but soundscan doesn't have it doing such and such. People act like soundscan of today was the same as it was back in the early 90's when it didn't count sames from some of the largest places. Soundscan didn't count record club sales at all. And of course, alot of people got those Vinnie albums on CD during that time period.

Look how bad Asylum did. You didn't see it ship platinum. They spent more money on videos trying to push that album. That one got 3 and it still didn't sell well. And because Asylum did so poorly it went to the "two year plan" on Crazy Nights. The one thing that did help KISS during the time was they began to play up the nostalgia again. The makeup times were back thanks to eXposed being released prior to CN coming out. Crazy Nights can't be looked upon as any success at all. The tour was hemorrhaging money they couldn't even afford to keep paying a keyboard player to stay on tour with them. And they had to pay Ted Nugent decent bucks to help fill some seats.

So what came next? An album that is basically demos. One that had sold so poorly, Chrysalis did a survey during the HITS tour trying to figure out why people weren't buying KISS albums. Yes, "Forever" as a $1.50 cassingle sold well but it didn't move albums.

What was KISS left with? Going back to Vinnie. Revenge is around 1M in sales. Even if you go by the soundscan figures (which missed a ton of sales on its initial release and doesnt' account for record club sales), Revenge is still the best KISS selling album from 1989 forward. It's timing of course was hurt by grunge. The delay of the Revenge tour also hurt it subtantially. Using Faster Pussycat and some of the other opening acts on that tour certainly didn't help things. And there was no Slaughter or Winger to help put a ton of butts in the seats like KISS had on the HITS tour.

Revenge could have been substantially better if they had used more Vinnie songs on it. But at least Vinnie got KISS BACK on track just like he did with COTN. KISS' direction prior to Vinnie was not good (as evidenced by the early COTN sessions which wound up on "Killers"). And Bruce Kulick got set down because his playing wasn't up to snuff.

If anyone is honest, they will admit the 3 best KISS albums from 1977-on are COTN, LICK IT UP and REVENGE.

KISS is lucky the reunion happened because "Carnival Of Grunge" would have put them to playing 1,000 seaters


Whatever you want to say about Vinnie and his output since All Systems Go, the fact is undeniable that he was by far the 3rd most important songwriter to KISS (Behind Gene and Paul). That Metal-N-Roll put KISS back on top after KISS had buried themselves 3 feet under.

Maybe Vinnie can't save himself, but he sure saved KISS.

It's a shame Paul's ego was too huge and they were too cheap to pay Vinnie accordingly. They really cost themselves a ton of money they could have had from 1984 up to at least the mid 90's. They'd probably still own their publishing and wouldn't have had to sell that off just to keep afloat.

I'm curious what songs would you have on that record.

Where's Drago? wrote: ↑Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:57 pm

Thunderous_Lay wrote: ↑Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:38 pm

Where's Drago? wrote: ↑Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:29 pm I've said it before and I'll say it again:

"Heaven's On Fire" is Paul ripping off Vinnie. It's almost like Paul's gone to Desmond "Our songwriter's gone, help me write me one he'd write."

Those lyrics are pure Vinnie. Did he leave the band with some lyric ideas or something?

Hot boiling blood, kneeling devils, skies painted with desire - this is all the beautiful demented imagery of Vinnie Vincent.

And yes, Animalize would've been bonkers huge if Vinnie had hung around.

Lick It Up wasn't "bonkers huge".

Vinnie Vincent Invasion wasn't "bonkers huge".

All Systems Go wasn't "bonkers huge".

Hell, not even Creatures of the Night, which I love BTW, was "bonkers huge".

Why would Animalize with Cusano be "bonkers huge" ?

I mean, am I missing something here ?

Momentum.

Animalize already sold more than any other KISS album since Dynasty. But it was shit. The effort KISS had put into the band was beginning to bear fruit. Lick It Up absolutely opened the door for Animalize. But Animalize never had the songs. From that point on, KISS stalled. Until, of course, Vinnie wrote the lead single from Revenge...

U.S. Charts:
Dynasty : #9
Unmasked : #35 (down 26)
The Elder : #75 (down 40)
Creatures : #45 (up 30)
Lick It Up : #24 (up 21)
Animalize : #19 (up 5)
Asylum : #20 (down 1)
Crazy Nights : #18 (up 2)
Revenge : #6 (up 12)

3 albums had way better performances than their counterparts: Creatures, Lick It Up and Revenge.

Those 3 albums all required Vinnie.

And Vinnie required KISS.

This isn't hyperbole, it's Egyptian WIZardry.

You really can't include Revenge on this list. Reporting methods had changed by 1992 where Nielsen SoundScan was reporting direct sales instead of record store estimates that had been the case before 1991. That's part of the reason why Revenge debuted so high and then dropped like a rock... all of the Kiss hardcores bought it in the first few weeks and then nobody else bothered to pick up the album.

Revenge didn't expand Kiss' fanbase in any way, shape or form. It only appealed to Kiss fans. That's why both HITS (which you left off your list) and Revenge are both certified gold by the RIAA which shows that essentially Kiss' audience in the late 80s/early 90s was around 500k strong... which is a very impressive number, especially from a then-aging group that hadn't put out a good album in about a decade at that time.

In truth after Alive! all of Kiss' albums more than likely would have charted higher than reported had SoundScan technology existed/been implemented sooner.

Where's Drago? wrote: ↑Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:57 pm

Thunderous_Lay wrote: ↑Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:38 pm

Where's Drago? wrote: ↑Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:29 pm I've said it before and I'll say it again:

"Heaven's On Fire" is Paul ripping off Vinnie. It's almost like Paul's gone to Desmond "Our songwriter's gone, help me write me one he'd write."

Those lyrics are pure Vinnie. Did he leave the band with some lyric ideas or something?

Hot boiling blood, kneeling devils, skies painted with desire - this is all the beautiful demented imagery of Vinnie Vincent.

And yes, Animalize would've been bonkers huge if Vinnie had hung around.

Lick It Up wasn't "bonkers huge".

Vinnie Vincent Invasion wasn't "bonkers huge".

All Systems Go wasn't "bonkers huge".

Hell, not even Creatures of the Night, which I love BTW, was "bonkers huge".

Why would Animalize with Cusano be "bonkers huge" ?

I mean, am I missing something here ?

Momentum.

Animalize already sold more than any other KISS album since Dynasty. But it was shit. The effort KISS had put into the band was beginning to bear fruit. Lick It Up absolutely opened the door for Animalize. But Animalize never had the songs. From that point on, KISS stalled. Until, of course, Vinnie wrote the lead single from Revenge...

U.S. Charts:
Dynasty : #9
Unmasked : #35 (down 26)
The Elder : #75 (down 40)
Creatures : #45 (up 30)
Lick It Up : #24 (up 21)
Animalize : #19 (up 5)
Asylum : #20 (down 1)
Crazy Nights : #18 (up 2)
Revenge : #6 (up 12)

3 albums had way better performances than their counterparts: Creatures, Lick It Up and Revenge.

Those 3 albums all required Vinnie.

And Vinnie required KISS.

This isn't hyperbole, it's Egyptian WIZardry.

I disagree. I think Vinnie is a great songwriter. But I think those three albums having a spike is also based around going back to a harder, more rock, classic KISS sound (Creatures & Revenge) and also the novelty of renewed interest without makeup (Lick It Up).


Don't get me wrong Vinnie absolutely added to the quality of those albums in a big way, but had he stayed in the band I don't think sales would be vastly different over the 80s. I do think the albums would be better though.

KISS and Vinnie really worked great as songwriting partners.

The album sold huge as it was


there was no need for Vinny

Rockandrolloverman wrote: ↑Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:55 pm The album sold huge as it was


there was no need for Vinny

“Huge”compared to what?

Mötley?
Ozzy?
Dio?
Sister?
Leppard?
Springsteen?
Ratt?

Where's Drago? wrote: ↑Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:57 pm

Thunderous_Lay wrote: ↑Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:38 pm

Where's Drago? wrote: ↑Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:29 pm I've said it before and I'll say it again:

"Heaven's On Fire" is Paul ripping off Vinnie. It's almost like Paul's gone to Desmond "Our songwriter's gone, help me write me one he'd write."

Those lyrics are pure Vinnie. Did he leave the band with some lyric ideas or something?

Hot boiling blood, kneeling devils, skies painted with desire - this is all the beautiful demented imagery of Vinnie Vincent.

And yes, Animalize would've been bonkers huge if Vinnie had hung around.

Lick It Up wasn't "bonkers huge".

Vinnie Vincent Invasion wasn't "bonkers huge".

All Systems Go wasn't "bonkers huge".

Hell, not even Creatures of the Night, which I love BTW, was "bonkers huge".

Why would Animalize with Cusano be "bonkers huge" ?

I mean, am I missing something here ?

Momentum.

Animalize already sold more than any other KISS album since Dynasty. But it was shit. The effort KISS had put into the band was beginning to bear fruit. Lick It Up absolutely opened the door for Animalize. But Animalize never had the songs. From that point on, KISS stalled. Until, of course, Vinnie wrote the lead single from Revenge...

U.S. Charts:
Dynasty : #9
Unmasked : #35 (down 26)
The Elder : #75 (down 40)
Creatures : #45 (up 30)
Lick It Up : #24 (up 21)
Animalize : #19 (up 5)
Asylum : #20 (down 1)
Crazy Nights : #18 (up 2)
Revenge : #6 (up 12)

3 albums had way better performances than their counterparts: Creatures, Lick It Up and Revenge.

Those 3 albums all required Vinnie.

And Vinnie required KISS.

This isn't hyperbole, it's Egyptian WIZardry.

Wheres hits?

My apologies, HITS now added:

U.S. Charts:
Dynasty : #9
Unmasked : #35 (down 26)
The Elder : #75 (down 40)
Creatures : #45 (up 30)
Lick It Up : #24 (up 21)
Animalize : #19 (up 5)
Asylum : #20 (down 1)
Crazy Nights : #18 (up 2)
H.I.T.S : #29 (down 11)
Revenge : #6 (up 23)

The context has probably gone now though, lol.

TheSphinx wrote: ↑Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:35 am

kissthat wrote: ↑Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:18 am Look who's back , nice to see you pop in Sphinxie.

Thanks. I'm going to pop back out now but I couldn't resist this one.

All Hail The Egyptian Warrior!

When I first started reading this thread I thought of you.
And then... there you are! Don't be a stranger!

Parallax1 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:14 pm

TheSphinx wrote: ↑Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:35 am

kissthat wrote: ↑Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:18 am Look who's back , nice to see you pop in Sphinxie.

Thanks. I'm going to pop back out now but I couldn't resist this one.

All Hail The Egyptian Warrior!

When I first started reading this thread I thought of you.
And then... there you are! Don't be a stranger!

Yeah welcome back Hey Man/Vinnie

caligari wrote: ↑Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:01 pm

Rockandrolloverman wrote: ↑Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:55 pm The album sold huge as it was


there was no need for Vinny

“Huge”compared to what?

Mötley?
Ozzy?
Dio?
Sister?
Leppard?
Springsteen?
Ratt?

It is Kiss's biggest-selling studio album without the makeup I believe, unless Crazy Nights overtook it. Either way, it did very well, better than the Vinnie-infused "Lick It Up" album (which I like).

I'm glad Vinnie didn't work on Animalize. I agree, there was no need for Vinnie. And I said this before, something is up, because while Vinnie co-wrote some good Kiss songs, I personally think his "Invasion" albums sound much different, and much worse. In other words, like crap.

Uh, no.

sneed78 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:34 am “THE INVASION OF ANIMALIZE”

SIDE ONE
1. I’ve Had Enough (Into the Fire)
2. Heaven’s On Fire
3. I Wanna Be Your Victim (Gene vocals)
4. No Substitute (Paul vocals)
5. Thrills In The Night
6. Baby-O

SIDE TWO
1. Do You Wanna Make Love (Paul vocals)
2. Burn Bitch Burn
3. Back On The Streets (Vinnie and Paul vocals)
4. Gypsy In Your Eyes
5. Twisted (Gene vocals)
6. Boyz Are Gonna Rock

Yep. Gypsy wasn't exactly in Invasion record but it was one Vinnie's songs at the time.

redinthesky wrote: ↑Sat Aug 17, 2019 9:58 pm

caligari wrote: ↑Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:01 pm

Rockandrolloverman wrote: ↑Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:55 pm The album sold huge as it was


there was no need for Vinny

“Huge”compared to what?

Mötley?
Ozzy?
Dio?
Sister?
Leppard?
Springsteen?
Ratt?

It is Kiss's biggest-selling studio album without the makeup I believe, unless Crazy Nights overtook it. Either way, it did very well, better than the Vinnie-infused "Lick It Up" album (which I like).

I'm glad Vinnie didn't work on Animalize. I agree, there was no need for Vinnie. And I said this before, something is up, because while Vinnie co-wrote some good Kiss songs, I personally think his "Invasion" albums sound much different, and much worse. In other words, like crap.

That was always weird to me. I like most of his KISS co-writes, but I loathe his solo stuff.

I think that If Vinnie had stayed-> no Desmond Child and no HOF. But propably Animalize would have been much better than it is without proper Genesongs.

The only thing KISS needed at the time was a hungry Gene in demon mode. All his songs from LIU till HITS are weak, the same period he lost his head to Hollywood.