How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by LordThurisaz »

Grand Classic wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:57 pm Just imagine a world where this is the new KISS album also on Casablanca Records.

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I have to live in a world with Kevin Smith's abomination, I am NOT imagining that bullshit. Sorry, El Classico.
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by kisswah »

No matter what Paul says in his autobiography, I remember that IWMFLY was Neil Bogart's idea and they had to do what their label said, since they were in huge depth because of the solo albums ... or am I way off?
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by jannep17 »

Why didn't Kiss wake up and play AOR when Fleetwood Mac's Rumours sold three gazillion copies?
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by Grand Classic »

LordThurisaz wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:58 pm
Grand Classic wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:57 pm Just imagine a world where this is the new KISS album also on Casablanca Records.

Image
I have to live in a world with Kevin Smith's abomination, I am NOT imagining that bullshit. Sorry, El Classico.
To be fair, it's not like the original He-Man cartoon was epic storytelling. It was a show literally created to sell toys.
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by Thayerscomet »

Because kiss was still doing great Dynasty and Unmasked were worldwide hits.Yes unmasked did not do great in the usa but internationally it was a very big album the charts bare that out.
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by jannep17 »

Thayerscomet wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:13 pm Because kiss was still doing great Dynasty and Unmasked were worldwide hits.Yes unmasked did not do great in the usa but internationally it was a very big album the charts bare that out.
Number 1 in New Zealand and Norway. Number 3 in Australia. Number 4 in Germany and number 5 in the Netherlands.

Those list positions were of course off the back of IWMFLY.
When Unmasked didn't have a similar hit and the band also went crazy and recorded a concept album, sales really tanked with The Elder.
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by Grand Classic »

Thayerscomet wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:13 pm Because kiss was still doing great Dynasty and Unmasked were worldwide hits.Yes unmasked did not do great in the usa but internationally it was a very big album the charts bare that out.
KISS doesn't give a shit about that. If the album doesn't do well at home, it's a failure. Also there was a fan exodus when Dynasty came out.
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by In the Suds »

Grand Classic wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:31 pm
Thayerscomet wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:13 pm Because kiss was still doing great Dynasty and Unmasked were worldwide hits.Yes unmasked did not do great in the usa but internationally it was a very big album the charts bare that out.
KISS doesn't give a shit about that. If the album doesn't do well at home, it's a failure. Also there was a fan exodus when Dynasty came out.
Why would they not care about having an international hit? That makes zero sense.
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by SpinningAcorn »

Grand Classic wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:13 am Greetings,

Considering both Gene and Paul were well aware of Van Halen, before the debut came out and also saw the impact the debut had in 1978 along with other hard rock bands like AC/DC, how was this not a wake up call that KISS also needed to up their game as a hard rock band.

It was just a clueless decision that KISS made to record Dynasty and Unmasked. You would think that they would see this as a sign that we should get a bit heavier and more rocking. Nope. They went full on the other way. They were just unbelievably out of touch and that continued from Dynasty to The Elder.

It's really more about that fact that Paul and Gene actually had a heads up about VH before the rest of the world. If I saw them live, heard the demos and then the eventual album - I would be scrapping everything in the studio that I was working on if it was pop-rock and disco and I would be reminded that I am in a hard rock band. So time to bring my A game and make a heavier hard rock album ala something like Creatures which should have come before 1982 anyway.

Now I know some people here love Dynasty and Unmasked - like I do The Elder, but objectively speaking - don't you think with their connection to VH, they probably should have been more aware that this is what hard rock fans want from their bands and certainly what KISS fans wanted from them given the exodus of fans when Dynasty was released.

To double down with Unmasked and go a third time with Elder just shows to me that they were completely lost and had no idea what they were doing. It's like their head was in the sand and they couldn't see that they were surrounded by many successful hard rock bands that were actually heavy and not trying to write disco or pop songs.

So do you think given their SPECIFIC connection, VH probably should have been a sort of wake up call for KISS when it came to the direction they went into on the albums and they should have gotten heavier and more rocking long before 1982. That AC/DC and others too in the late 70's should have also been a clue for KISS or do you think KISS were right to do what they did.

I think a lot of this is revisionist history.

The Dynasty album was a huge success initially selling around 2 million copies in the US and it was a huge worldwide smash. On top of that the single I was made for loving you sold over 1 million copies in the US.

Yes the tour didn't do well they overspent ,overprojected etcetera. One also wonder how well the tour would have done if they were traveling overseas then.

Remember long gas lines and stagflation was the name of the game in the United States then. Not to mention yellow ribbons on trees because we wouldn't go get are hostages. It was really a sucky time in America.

Now you are bashing kiss for doing an album that got them the mother of all record deals. Do you really think if Dynasty had not been such a smash they would have gotten the deal they did?

And let's not forget they did try to make a rock album they couldn't. That's why you got what you got.
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by Grand Classic »

In the Suds wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:52 pm
Grand Classic wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:31 pm
Thayerscomet wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:13 pm Because kiss was still doing great Dynasty and Unmasked were worldwide hits.Yes unmasked did not do great in the usa but internationally it was a very big album the charts bare that out.
KISS doesn't give a shit about that. If the album doesn't do well at home, it's a failure. Also there was a fan exodus when Dynasty came out.
Why would they not care about having an international hit? That makes zero sense.
Many bands don't care about hits in other countries - especially if they are tanking at home. It's like a consolation prize. The album is ultimately a failure.

Unless the band can actually make a good living just playing internationally like say a Mr. Big in Japan.

This shouldn't be a revelation to you. Van Halen certainly didn't give a fuck. I wouldn't care much either if my album was just tanking in North America which may result in my getting dropped, but whoo hoo - one of my songs is on the charts in Sweden.

Do you think KISS actually gives a shit that Shandi did well in Australia? From what the Australians on this board have said - KISS haven't shown their appreciation to Australia as much as they would like.
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by Grand Classic »

SpinningAcorn wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:56 pm
Grand Classic wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:13 am Greetings,

Considering both Gene and Paul were well aware of Van Halen, before the debut came out and also saw the impact the debut had in 1978 along with other hard rock bands like AC/DC, how was this not a wake up call that KISS also needed to up their game as a hard rock band.

It was just a clueless decision that KISS made to record Dynasty and Unmasked. You would think that they would see this as a sign that we should get a bit heavier and more rocking. Nope. They went full on the other way. They were just unbelievably out of touch and that continued from Dynasty to The Elder.

It's really more about that fact that Paul and Gene actually had a heads up about VH before the rest of the world. If I saw them live, heard the demos and then the eventual album - I would be scrapping everything in the studio that I was working on if it was pop-rock and disco and I would be reminded that I am in a hard rock band. So time to bring my A game and make a heavier hard rock album ala something like Creatures which should have come before 1982 anyway.

Now I know some people here love Dynasty and Unmasked - like I do The Elder, but objectively speaking - don't you think with their connection to VH, they probably should have been more aware that this is what hard rock fans want from their bands and certainly what KISS fans wanted from them given the exodus of fans when Dynasty was released.

To double down with Unmasked and go a third time with Elder just shows to me that they were completely lost and had no idea what they were doing. It's like their head was in the sand and they couldn't see that they were surrounded by many successful hard rock bands that were actually heavy and not trying to write disco or pop songs.

So do you think given their SPECIFIC connection, VH probably should have been a sort of wake up call for KISS when it came to the direction they went into on the albums and they should have gotten heavier and more rocking long before 1982. That AC/DC and others too in the late 70's should have also been a clue for KISS or do you think KISS were right to do what they did.

I think a lot of this is revisionist history.

The Dynasty album was a huge success initially selling around 2 million copies in the US and it was a huge worldwide smash. On top of that the single I was made for loving you sold over 1 million copies in the US.

Yes the tour didn't do well they overspent ,overprojected etcetera. One also wonder how well the tour would have done if they were traveling overseas then.

Remember long gas lines and stagflation was the name of the game in the United States then. Not to mention yellow ribbons on trees because we wouldn't go get are hostages. It was really a sucky time in America.

Now you are bashing kiss for doing an album that got them the mother of all record deals. Do you really think if Dynasty had not been such a smash they would have gotten the deal they did?

And let's not forget they did try to make a rock album they couldn't. That's why you got what you got.
It's not revisionist history that there was a mass exodus of KISS fans when Dynasty came out. That is exactly what happened. Dynasty, Unmasked and The Elder were clearly wrong decisions. At the time and looking back.
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by SpinningAcorn »

Grand Classic wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:08 pm
SpinningAcorn wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:56 pm
Grand Classic wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:13 am Greetings,

Considering both Gene and Paul were well aware of Van Halen, before the debut came out and also saw the impact the debut had in 1978 along with other hard rock bands like AC/DC, how was this not a wake up call that KISS also needed to up their game as a hard rock band.

It was just a clueless decision that KISS made to record Dynasty and Unmasked. You would think that they would see this as a sign that we should get a bit heavier and more rocking. Nope. They went full on the other way. They were just unbelievably out of touch and that continued from Dynasty to The Elder.

It's really more about that fact that Paul and Gene actually had a heads up about VH before the rest of the world. If I saw them live, heard the demos and then the eventual album - I would be scrapping everything in the studio that I was working on if it was pop-rock and disco and I would be reminded that I am in a hard rock band. So time to bring my A game and make a heavier hard rock album ala something like Creatures which should have come before 1982 anyway.

Now I know some people here love Dynasty and Unmasked - like I do The Elder, but objectively speaking - don't you think with their connection to VH, they probably should have been more aware that this is what hard rock fans want from their bands and certainly what KISS fans wanted from them given the exodus of fans when Dynasty was released.

To double down with Unmasked and go a third time with Elder just shows to me that they were completely lost and had no idea what they were doing. It's like their head was in the sand and they couldn't see that they were surrounded by many successful hard rock bands that were actually heavy and not trying to write disco or pop songs.

So do you think given their SPECIFIC connection, VH probably should have been a sort of wake up call for KISS when it came to the direction they went into on the albums and they should have gotten heavier and more rocking long before 1982. That AC/DC and others too in the late 70's should have also been a clue for KISS or do you think KISS were right to do what they did.

I think a lot of this is revisionist history.

The Dynasty album was a huge success initially selling around 2 million copies in the US and it was a huge worldwide smash. On top of that the single I was made for loving you sold over 1 million copies in the US.

Yes the tour didn't do well they overspent ,overprojected etcetera. One also wonder how well the tour would have done if they were traveling overseas then.

Remember long gas lines and stagflation was the name of the game in the United States then. Not to mention yellow ribbons on trees because we wouldn't go get are hostages. It was really a sucky time in America.

Now you are bashing kiss for doing an album that got them the mother of all record deals. Do you really think if Dynasty had not been such a smash they would have gotten the deal they did?

And let's not forget they did try to make a rock album they couldn't. That's why you got what you got.
It's not revisionist history that there was a mass exodus of KISS fans when Dynasty came out. That is exactly what happened. Dynasty, Unmasked and The Elder were clearly wrong decisions. At the time and looking back.
It is revisionist history to act like Dynasty wasn't a huge hit did it sold millions in the states and a single that did over a million. It was a huge worldwide hit and it landed them one of the biggest record deals of all time at the time.

And again kiss didn't know why the tour didn't do so well.... again the economy sucked in the US. That's why there was a movie that came out in 1980 how to beat the the High Cost of Living. 1979 and 1980 were horrible years.

And you complain about the Elder but they did try to make a rock album and it wasn't in them. They couldn't come up with Jack.
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by TwistedTaste »

jannep17 wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:04 pm Why didn't Kiss wake up and play AOR when Fleetwood Mac's Rumours sold three gazillion copies?
Have you heard Paul’s solo album and Dynasty/Unmasked? :D
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by TwistedTaste »

Thayerscomet wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:13 pm Because kiss was still doing great Dynasty and Unmasked were worldwide hits.Yes unmasked did not do great in the usa but internationally it was a very big album the charts bare that out.
“Unmasked did not do great in the US” is an understatement. It did sh!t. Thankfully Australia was still a couple years behind the times and Kiss were still relevant there. Although the promoters took a bloodbath on many of the shows there.
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by jannep17 »

TwistedTaste wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:20 pm
jannep17 wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:04 pm Why didn't Kiss wake up and play AOR when Fleetwood Mac's Rumours sold three gazillion copies?
Have you heard Paul’s solo album and Dynasty/Unmasked? :D
Yeah, and they're not nearly as good as Rumours. :P
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by TwistedTaste »

jannep17 wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:17 pm
Thayerscomet wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:13 pm Because kiss was still doing great Dynasty and Unmasked were worldwide hits.Yes unmasked did not do great in the usa but internationally it was a very big album the charts bare that out.
Number 1 in New Zealand and Norway. Number 3 in Australia. Number 4 in Germany and number 5 in the Netherlands.

Those list positions were of course off the back of IWMFLY.
When Unmasked didn't have a similar hit and the band also went crazy and recorded a concept album, sales really tanked with The Elder.
I don’t think it was as much due to IWMFLY as it was that Kiss was catching on there at the time.
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by TwistedTaste »

In the Suds wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:52 pm
Grand Classic wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:31 pm
Thayerscomet wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:13 pm Because kiss was still doing great Dynasty and Unmasked were worldwide hits.Yes unmasked did not do great in the usa but internationally it was a very big album the charts bare that out.
KISS doesn't give a shit about that. If the album doesn't do well at home, it's a failure. Also there was a fan exodus when Dynasty came out.
Why would they not care about having an international hit? That makes zero sense.
Kiss are an American band & The US is the number one market for touring bands.
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by Grand Classic »

SpinningAcorn wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:12 pm
Grand Classic wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:08 pm
SpinningAcorn wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:56 pm
Grand Classic wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:13 am Greetings,

Considering both Gene and Paul were well aware of Van Halen, before the debut came out and also saw the impact the debut had in 1978 along with other hard rock bands like AC/DC, how was this not a wake up call that KISS also needed to up their game as a hard rock band.

It was just a clueless decision that KISS made to record Dynasty and Unmasked. You would think that they would see this as a sign that we should get a bit heavier and more rocking. Nope. They went full on the other way. They were just unbelievably out of touch and that continued from Dynasty to The Elder.

It's really more about that fact that Paul and Gene actually had a heads up about VH before the rest of the world. If I saw them live, heard the demos and then the eventual album - I would be scrapping everything in the studio that I was working on if it was pop-rock and disco and I would be reminded that I am in a hard rock band. So time to bring my A game and make a heavier hard rock album ala something like Creatures which should have come before 1982 anyway.

Now I know some people here love Dynasty and Unmasked - like I do The Elder, but objectively speaking - don't you think with their connection to VH, they probably should have been more aware that this is what hard rock fans want from their bands and certainly what KISS fans wanted from them given the exodus of fans when Dynasty was released.

To double down with Unmasked and go a third time with Elder just shows to me that they were completely lost and had no idea what they were doing. It's like their head was in the sand and they couldn't see that they were surrounded by many successful hard rock bands that were actually heavy and not trying to write disco or pop songs.

So do you think given their SPECIFIC connection, VH probably should have been a sort of wake up call for KISS when it came to the direction they went into on the albums and they should have gotten heavier and more rocking long before 1982. That AC/DC and others too in the late 70's should have also been a clue for KISS or do you think KISS were right to do what they did.

I think a lot of this is revisionist history.

The Dynasty album was a huge success initially selling around 2 million copies in the US and it was a huge worldwide smash. On top of that the single I was made for loving you sold over 1 million copies in the US.

Yes the tour didn't do well they overspent ,overprojected etcetera. One also wonder how well the tour would have done if they were traveling overseas then.

Remember long gas lines and stagflation was the name of the game in the United States then. Not to mention yellow ribbons on trees because we wouldn't go get are hostages. It was really a sucky time in America.

Now you are bashing kiss for doing an album that got them the mother of all record deals. Do you really think if Dynasty had not been such a smash they would have gotten the deal they did?

And let's not forget they did try to make a rock album they couldn't. That's why you got what you got.
It's not revisionist history that there was a mass exodus of KISS fans when Dynasty came out. That is exactly what happened. Dynasty, Unmasked and The Elder were clearly wrong decisions. At the time and looking back.
It is revisionist history to act like Dynasty wasn't a huge hit did it sold millions in the states and a single that did over a million. It was a huge worldwide hit and it landed them one of the biggest record deals of all time at the time.

And again kiss didn't know why the tour didn't do so well.... again the economy sucked in the US. That's why there was a movie that came out in 1980 how to beat the the High Cost of Living. 1979 and 1980 were horrible years.

And you complain about the Elder but they did try to make a rock album and it wasn't in them. They couldn't come up with Jack.
While it has sold more since then, Dynasty was certified as a 1 million seller in 1979.

If it sold 2 million like you claim INITIALLY, the album would already be certified as 2x without the need for KISS to have their albums recertified.

It is not, because it didn't sell that much in the late 70's. It went platinum which would be expected for any new KISS album. The end.

KISS wasn't making a hard rock album with The Elder, they were making a concept album or what they later described as a bad Genesis album.

Are you Sphinx?
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by TwistedTaste »

Grand Classic wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:08 pm
SpinningAcorn wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:56 pm
Grand Classic wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:13 am Greetings,

Considering both Gene and Paul were well aware of Van Halen, before the debut came out and also saw the impact the debut had in 1978 along with other hard rock bands like AC/DC, how was this not a wake up call that KISS also needed to up their game as a hard rock band.

It was just a clueless decision that KISS made to record Dynasty and Unmasked. You would think that they would see this as a sign that we should get a bit heavier and more rocking. Nope. They went full on the other way. They were just unbelievably out of touch and that continued from Dynasty to The Elder.

It's really more about that fact that Paul and Gene actually had a heads up about VH before the rest of the world. If I saw them live, heard the demos and then the eventual album - I would be scrapping everything in the studio that I was working on if it was pop-rock and disco and I would be reminded that I am in a hard rock band. So time to bring my A game and make a heavier hard rock album ala something like Creatures which should have come before 1982 anyway.

Now I know some people here love Dynasty and Unmasked - like I do The Elder, but objectively speaking - don't you think with their connection to VH, they probably should have been more aware that this is what hard rock fans want from their bands and certainly what KISS fans wanted from them given the exodus of fans when Dynasty was released.

To double down with Unmasked and go a third time with Elder just shows to me that they were completely lost and had no idea what they were doing. It's like their head was in the sand and they couldn't see that they were surrounded by many successful hard rock bands that were actually heavy and not trying to write disco or pop songs.

So do you think given their SPECIFIC connection, VH probably should have been a sort of wake up call for KISS when it came to the direction they went into on the albums and they should have gotten heavier and more rocking long before 1982. That AC/DC and others too in the late 70's should have also been a clue for KISS or do you think KISS were right to do what they did.

I think a lot of this is revisionist history.

The Dynasty album was a huge success initially selling around 2 million copies in the US and it was a huge worldwide smash. On top of that the single I was made for loving you sold over 1 million copies in the US.

Yes the tour didn't do well they overspent ,overprojected etcetera. One also wonder how well the tour would have done if they were traveling overseas then.

Remember long gas lines and stagflation was the name of the game in the United States then. Not to mention yellow ribbons on trees because we wouldn't go get are hostages. It was really a sucky time in America.

Now you are bashing kiss for doing an album that got them the mother of all record deals. Do you really think if Dynasty had not been such a smash they would have gotten the deal they did?

And let's not forget they did try to make a rock album they couldn't. That's why you got what you got.
It's not revisionist history that there was a mass exodus of KISS fans when Dynasty came out. That is exactly what happened. Dynasty, Unmasked and The Elder were clearly wrong decisions. At the time and looking back.
Yep. A huge exodus occurred Phantom/Solo Albums/Dynasty. They became a kiddie band.
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by highvoltage1969 »

Wiped Out 78 wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:25 am Yeah, if you look at all the great hard rock records that came out in 1980:

AC/DC - Back In Black
Ozzy - Blizzard Of Ozz
Black Sabbath - Heaven & Hell
Van Halen - Women & Children First
Judas Priest - British Steel
Iron Maiden - s/t

And KISS gives us "Unmasked". That was pretty much where I got off the bus.
Add to that list:

Motorhead - Ace Of Spades
Saxon -Strong Arm Of The Law
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by SpinningAcorn »

Sorry you don't know how recertification works but it doesn't happen that way. If it did then why is a Alive still on the gold it wouldn't need recertification for platinum.

I also think it's funny you ignore them getting the record contract based on that success
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by steveh67 »

Bill Aucoin had too much influence in the decision making at that point.

Whilst we all love what Bill did for KISS, he is guilty of turning them into a cartoon by the end of the 70s.
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by In the Suds »

TwistedTaste wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:25 pm
In the Suds wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:52 pm
Grand Classic wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:31 pm
Thayerscomet wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:13 pm Because kiss was still doing great Dynasty and Unmasked were worldwide hits.Yes unmasked did not do great in the usa but internationally it was a very big album the charts bare that out.
KISS doesn't give a shit about that. If the album doesn't do well at home, it's a failure. Also there was a fan exodus when Dynasty came out.
Why would they not care about having an international hit? That makes zero sense.
Kiss are an American band & The US is the number one market for touring bands.
Having an international hit enabled them to tour internationally, which has benefited them enormously, and continues to, to this day. This is so obvious that to deny it seems insane to me. But...whatever.
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by SpinningAcorn »

In the Suds wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:40 pm

Having an international hit enabled them to tour internationally, which has benefited them enormously, and continues to, to this day. This is so obvious that to deny it seems insane to me. But...whatever.
But they did have huge losses in the UK and Australia. And it took them forever to return to Australia.

But the huge success of Dynasty in the US and Intl got them a 6 album / $15M contract. And if 1 album tanked or all, it wouldn't matter with that great deal.

In a deal like that could also hurt your creativity etc. You're not, as they say, under the gun. A deal like that can make you complacent
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by Grand Classic »

SpinningAcorn wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:36 pm Sorry you don't know how recertification works but it doesn't happen that way. If it did then why is a Alive still on the gold it wouldn't need recertification for platinum.

I also think it's funny you ignore them getting the record contract based on that success
If it sold 2 million INITIALLY like you said - it would show as 2 million now. Like other albums do from 1978, 1979 and 1980 that actually sold 2x, 3x, etc.

You are wrong.
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Post by DonnaDixon »

I think you're right. And what this essentially means is that people were initially very excited about Dynasty, IWMFLY, the new colorful costumes, etc. But then very quickly---like, just a matter of weeks---got burned out on it and realized they didn't like that stuff after all. Hence a bust of a tour, and the failure of Unmasked.
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Post by DonnaDixon »

I think you're right. And what this essentially means is that people were initially very excited about Dynasty, IWMFLY, the new colorful costumes, etc. But then very quickly---like, just a matter of weeks---got burned out on it and realized they didn't like that stuff after all. Hence a bust of a tour, and the failure of Unmasked.
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by Grand Classic »

In the Suds wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:40 pm
TwistedTaste wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:25 pm
In the Suds wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:52 pm
Grand Classic wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:31 pm

KISS doesn't give a shit about that. If the album doesn't do well at home, it's a failure. Also there was a fan exodus when Dynasty came out.
Why would they not care about having an international hit? That makes zero sense.
Kiss are an American band & The US is the number one market for touring bands.
Having an international hit enabled them to tour internationally, which has benefited them enormously, and continues to, to this day. This is so obvious that to deny it seems insane to me. But...whatever.
They would be able to tour internationally anyway. KISS was that kind of band that appealed to many different markets for obvious reasons.

Having a hit with Shandi or other songs in other countries wasn't pouring money into KISS' pockets or making up for their failures in North America.

You want to do well at home first and foremost. That is where you want to hear that you are a big success and if you are tanking across North America - having a hit in Australia really isn't good news to make you feel better. I am not sure how this goes over your head.

This reminds me of the movie Singles and the scene where Cameron Crowe interviews Matt Dillon's character. Yes, Dillon is bullshitting, but it is a common response from REAL bands that don't do well in America, but still want to hype themselves ala well we are huge in Japan or Sweden, etc.

Club Interviewer : Talking here with Cliff Poncier. Cliff, any comments on the "Seattle Sound" and Citizen Dick's place in it?

Cliff Poncier : Well, I don't like to reduce us to just being part of the "Seattle Sound." I'd like to think of us as expanding more. Like, we're huge in Europe right now. I mean, we've got records... uh, a big record just broke in Belgium.
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by peopleselbow »

Wiped Out 78 wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:25 am Yeah, if you look at all the great hard rock records that came out in 1980:

AC/DC - Back In Black
Ozzy - Blizzard Of Ozz
Black Sabbath - Heaven & Hell
Van Halen - Women & Children First
Judas Priest - British Steel
Iron Maiden - s/t

And KISS gives us "Unmasked". That was pretty much where I got off the bus.
THIS !

I still stuck with them though. I liked that The Elder wasn't Unmasked. Creatures and LIU are where they brought me back. Crazy Nights lost me again. The HITS tour brought me back. Revenge ? Meh. Then the reunion etc. etc.
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by Grand Classic »

DonnaDixon wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 5:30 pm I think you're right. And what this essentially means is that people were initially very excited about Dynasty, IWMFLY, the new colorful costumes, etc. But then very quickly---like, just a matter of weeks---got burned out on it and realized they didn't like that stuff after all. Hence a bust of a tour, and the failure of Unmasked.
That is absolutely what happened. Many KISS fans/some hard rock fans bought the album right out of the gate as would be expected for any new KISS album.

They listened, maybe tried to force themselves to like it because hey it's new car smell KISS and the vast majority of people after a few spins finally had to ask themselves: what is this shit?

Then the exodus happened.
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by SpinningAcorn »

Grand Classic wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 5:10 pm
SpinningAcorn wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:36 pm Sorry you don't know how recertification works but it doesn't happen that way. If it did then why is a Alive still on the gold it wouldn't need recertification for platinum.

I also think it's funny you ignore them getting the record contract based on that success
If it sold 2 million INITIALLY like you said - it would show as 2 million now. Like other albums do from 1978, 1979 and 1980 that actually sold 2x, 3x, etc.

You are wrong.
Still ignoring that record contract I see. Guess it's not very convenient towards your argument.

And records do not magically get recertified. Even the multi multi-platinum alive 2, got recertified in 1996. Of course they held back most of the sales from the RIAA. But that platinum album from the seventies got two million certification.

But since you can't back up any of our your positions at all, I think I'm done with you on this topic.

And I don't know why you act like they weren't trying to do a rock album before the Elder. Paul made it clear they tried but the songs they were writing were crap. Paul pointed out the songs he was writing were no better than the garbage that was on Unmasked. Same with the Geans material. They wanted to do another Destroyer as Paul pointed out.
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by Grand Classic »

SpinningAcorn wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 5:45 pm
Grand Classic wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 5:10 pm
SpinningAcorn wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:36 pm Sorry you don't know how recertification works but it doesn't happen that way. If it did then why is a Alive still on the gold it wouldn't need recertification for platinum.

I also think it's funny you ignore them getting the record contract based on that success
If it sold 2 million INITIALLY like you said - it would show as 2 million now. Like other albums do from 1978, 1979 and 1980 that actually sold 2x, 3x, etc.

You are wrong.
Still ignoring that record contract I see. Guess it's not very convenient towards your argument.

And records do not magically get recertified. Even the multi multi-platinum alive 2, got recertified in 1996. Of course they held back most of the sales from the RIAA. But that platinum album from the seventies got two million certification.

But since you can't back up any of our your positions at all, I think I'm done with you on this topic.

And I don't know why you act like they weren't trying to do a rock album before the Elder. Paul made it clear they tried but the songs they were writing were crap. Paul pointed out the songs he was writing were no better than the garbage that was on Unmasked. Same with the Geans material. They wanted to do another Destroyer as Paul pointed out.
It doesn't need to be recertified in regards to sales that happened in the 70's. We are not talking about sales for Dynasty in the 80's, 90's and beyond.

If it sold 2 million almost immediately or initially like you said, it would be already recognized as 2x platinum now. LIKE TONS OF OTHER ALBUMS FROM THE 70'S ARE without the need for KISS or the label to pay to have their albums recertified.

You are totally wrong here. Dynasty did not sell 2 million copies initially, so yes - it would be better for you if you just stop talking.
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by SpinningAcorn »

Grand Classic wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 5:51 pm
SpinningAcorn wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 5:45 pm
Grand Classic wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 5:10 pm
SpinningAcorn wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:36 pm Sorry you don't know how recertification works but it doesn't happen that way. If it did then why is a Alive still on the gold it wouldn't need recertification for platinum.

I also think it's funny you ignore them getting the record contract based on that success
If it sold 2 million INITIALLY like you said - it would show as 2 million now. Like other albums do from 1978, 1979 and 1980 that actually sold 2x, 3x, etc.

You are wrong.
Still ignoring that record contract I see. Guess it's not very convenient towards your argument.

And records do not magically get recertified. Even the multi multi-platinum alive 2, got recertified in 1996. Of course they held back most of the sales from the RIAA. But that platinum album from the seventies got two million certification.

But since you can't back up any of our your positions at all, I think I'm done with you on this topic.

And I don't know why you act like they weren't trying to do a rock album before the Elder. Paul made it clear they tried but the songs they were writing were crap. Paul pointed out the songs he was writing were no better than the garbage that was on Unmasked. Same with the Geans material. They wanted to do another Destroyer as Paul pointed out.
It doesn't need to be recertified in regards to sales that happened in the 70's. We are not talking about sales for Dynasty in the 80's, 90's and beyond.

If it sold 2 million almost immediately or initially like you said, it would be already recognized as 2x platinum now. LIKE TONS OF OTHER ALBUMS FROM THE 70'S ARE without the need for KISS or the label to pay to have their albums recertified.

You are totally wrong here. Dynasty did not sell 2 million copies initially, so yes - it would be better for you if you just stop talking.
You can't provide one example. I already gave you the alive 2 example. Or look at alive. You are just making stuff up. And of course you still can't discuss kisses six album fifteen million deal based on the huge success of Dynasty.

Obviously you have a hard time admitting that you're wrong.

And notice how you refuse to respond to Paul saying they wanted to do Destroyer again but the songs weren't there.

You struck out
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by Grand Classic »

SpinningAcorn wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 6:05 pm
Grand Classic wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 5:51 pm
SpinningAcorn wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 5:45 pm
Grand Classic wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 5:10 pm

If it sold 2 million INITIALLY like you said - it would show as 2 million now. Like other albums do from 1978, 1979 and 1980 that actually sold 2x, 3x, etc.

You are wrong.
Still ignoring that record contract I see. Guess it's not very convenient towards your argument.

And records do not magically get recertified. Even the multi multi-platinum alive 2, got recertified in 1996. Of course they held back most of the sales from the RIAA. But that platinum album from the seventies got two million certification.

But since you can't back up any of our your positions at all, I think I'm done with you on this topic.

And I don't know why you act like they weren't trying to do a rock album before the Elder. Paul made it clear they tried but the songs they were writing were crap. Paul pointed out the songs he was writing were no better than the garbage that was on Unmasked. Same with the Geans material. They wanted to do another Destroyer as Paul pointed out.
It doesn't need to be recertified in regards to sales that happened in the 70's. We are not talking about sales for Dynasty in the 80's, 90's and beyond.

If it sold 2 million almost immediately or initially like you said, it would be already recognized as 2x platinum now. LIKE TONS OF OTHER ALBUMS FROM THE 70'S ARE without the need for KISS or the label to pay to have their albums recertified.

You are totally wrong here. Dynasty did not sell 2 million copies initially, so yes - it would be better for you if you just stop talking.
You can't provide one example. I already gave you the alive 2 example. Or look at alive. You are just making stuff up. And of course you still can't discuss kisses six album fifteen million deal based on the huge success of Dynasty.

Obviously you have a hard time admitting that you're wrong.

And notice how you refuse to respond to Paul saying they wanted to do Destroyer again but the songs weren't there.

You struck out
Dynasty didn't sell 2 million in 1979. Alive II is 2x - an album that came out before. If Dynasty was at 2x, it would also be reflected.

KISS was still successful enough to get to any label interested in them and see a successful future financially. It's fucking laughable that you think it was specifically Dynasty that put them over the top to get the deal like they released Thriller or something.

Yep, you are Sphinx. Logic and reason are not you friend.
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by SpinningAcorn »

Wow can't provide anything to back it up. Can't deal with alive and Alive 2. Cant deal with kisses own business manager saying how well Dynasty did and it took away the hurt from the tour. Cant deal with him bragging about what a huge success it was.

You make up stuff about the riaa

You downplay the huge success of a Dynasty and then laughably act like Kiss could have gotten the mother of all record deals even if Dynasty didn't do well.

And of course silent when confronted with Paul's own statements on the album they were trying to make before the Elder.

You say a lot but can't back up anything. Maybe you should take a break from posting and study up on kisstory
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by Grand Classic »

SpinningAcorn wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 6:21 pm Wow can't provide anything to back it up. Can't deal with alive and Alive 2. Cant deal with kisses own business manager saying how well Dynasty did and it took away the hurt from the tour. Cant deal with him bragging about what a huge success it was.

You make up stuff about the riaa

You downplay the huge success of a Dynasty and then laughably act like Kiss could have gotten the mother of all record deals even if Dynasty didn't do well.

And of course silent when confronted with Paul's own statements on the album they were trying to make before the Elder.

You say a lot but can't back up anything. Maybe you should take a break from posting and study up on kisstory
Now I understand why you were endlessly mocked over Vinnie Vincent and your supposed "facts". I didn't really follow the Vinnie threads, but from time to time would see your bullshit and it's the exact same ridiculous idiocy you are posting here.
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by SpinningAcorn »

What the f*** are you talking about?

I do think it's funny you refuse to acknowledge KISS wanted to make a hard rock album before the Elder.

It's funny you don't know how the riaa works and can't provide one example to backup your ludicrous claim.

It's funny you know more about Dynasty than the band the business manager.

And it's absolutely laughable that you think kiss would have gotten a sixth album 15 million dollar deal with none of the album's being able to be cross collateralized had Dynasty not done well in the states.

I think I'm done ever responding to any more of your nonsense since you incapable of dealing in reality
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by Grand Classic »

SpinningAcorn wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 6:31 pm What the f*** are you talking about?

I do think it's funny you refuse to acknowledge KISS wanted to make a hard rock album before the Elder.

It's funny you don't know how the riaa works and can't provide one example to backup your ludicrous claim.

It's funny you know more about Dynasty than the band the business manager.

And it's absolutely laughable that you think kiss would have gotten a sixth album 15 million dollar deal with none of the album's being able to be cross collateralized had Dynasty not done well in the states.

I think I'm done ever responding to any more of your nonsense since you incapable of dealing in reality
You are The Sphinx. You live in delusion.
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by Kissoff »

Anomaly wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:26 am I'd say I think they knew exactly what they were doing, just they weren't quite expecting it to spectacularly backfire. Chalk it up to delusions of invincibility.
Agreed. Almost as if they love to tempt fate.
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by r&rhell2013 »

Neil Bogart was infatuated with hit singles and Kiss were never that kind of band. They lucked out when Beth became a hit and Bogart wanted another one and although IWMFLU was a hit they never recovered the core fan base from that blunder.
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by Wet Willie »

By the end of the 70's the charts were heaving with pop and disco singles. Only a hand full of rock bands were selling at the time.

Van Halen were hardly setting the charts on fire - that happened after they released a pop single called "Jump"...
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by redinthesky »

Wet Willie wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 9:18 pm By the end of the 70's the charts were heaving with pop and disco singles. Only a hand full of rock bands were selling at the time.

Van Halen were hardly setting the charts on fire - that happened after they released a pop single called "Jump"...
Every Roth-era Van Halen album hit the top-10 on the album charts except the first, which made top-20, in an era when more albums were being sold than ever and the competition was fierce.
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by Grand Classic »

Wet Willie wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 9:18 pm By the end of the 70's the charts were heaving with pop and disco singles. Only a hand full of rock bands were selling at the time.

Van Halen were hardly setting the charts on fire - that happened after they released a pop single called "Jump"...
You do realize that the Van Halen debut has gone 10X platinum and some guy named Eddie in the band changed guitar playing forever. Paul and Gene would kill kittens for the sales that VH got before 1984 came along with Jump.
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by nightwingken »

KISS had outlived its freshness date.
Nothing was going to change that
Same with Cooper around the same time.
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by jannep17 »

TwistedTaste wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:23 pm
jannep17 wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:17 pm
Thayerscomet wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:13 pm Because kiss was still doing great Dynasty and Unmasked were worldwide hits.Yes unmasked did not do great in the usa but internationally it was a very big album the charts bare that out.
Number 1 in New Zealand and Norway. Number 3 in Australia. Number 4 in Germany and number 5 in the Netherlands.

Those list positions were of course off the back of IWMFLY.
When Unmasked didn't have a similar hit and the band also went crazy and recorded a concept album, sales really tanked with The Elder.
I don’t think it was as much due to IWMFLY as it was that Kiss was catching on there at the time.
Yeah, and I think IWMFLY was a big reason behind people catching on.
IWMFLY was a million selling single and number one or two in several markets, including Australia, Canada and Germany.
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by Where's Drago? »

Anomaly wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:26 am I'd say I think they knew exactly what they were doing, just they weren't quite expecting it to spectacularly backfire. Chalk it up to delusions of invincibility.
Agreed. They proved with Love Gun (their prior studio album) that they could simply shit Platinum. If whatever you release is going to go Platinum, why not do something a bit different. Ultimately, it was the choice of producer. Twice!
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by Glasgow Kiss »

LordThurisaz wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:06 pm
spacedemon wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:58 pm KISS should've heeded what Punk Rock had done to the well established hard rock bands of their era. That should've been their "Oh shit!" moment. Punk Rock/New Wave made bands like KISS look and sound like dinosaurs. Other Metal bands took their cue from the Punk scene and that ended up giving birth to NWOBHM and bands like Motley Crew, Slayer, Metallica. By the time KISS tried to go with a Punk/New Wave look with The Elder and then a Heavy Metal thunder sound with COTN, The game was over.
I think NWOBHM took more cues from Stained Class by Judas Priest and early Motorhead than punk. A lot of them disliked punk.
Yeah, there's always been this misconception that the NWOBHM was "heavy metal influenced by punk" but nothing could have been further from the truth. The only influence those bands took from punk was the DIY ethos of self-releasing singles (often with cheap to non-existent production values) and networking with other bands on a similar level to set up gigs in other areas of the country. I lived through it, and if you'd told your average NWOBHM band they sounded like a punk band you'd have probably have ended up with a burst mouth :)

A lot of "N"WOBHM bands looked and sounded a little bit dated by 1979 - I can remember going to see the likes of Witchfynde and thinking they looked like a squad of hippies with suede fringed jackets and flared jeans!
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by Somebody Backstage »

Music was changing a lot at that time. Journey, The Cars, The Knack, etc. were big. I can see why they were confused about which direction to go.
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by TwistedTaste »

nightwingken wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 10:16 pm KISS had outlived its freshness date.
Nothing was going to change that
Same with Cooper around the same time.
Cooper was changing styles left and right too.

Kiss could have stayed true to themselves and never experienced any significant drops in popularity but Paul & Gene were too ignorant to realize this
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Re: How Was Van Halen Not A Clue For KISS To Go Heavier?

Post by missingdiver »

They were looking at the record charts and saw what disco was selling in late 1978..79. They were blinded .Yes mindblowing they couldn’t see the hard rock that was coming out...even more mind blowing is those bands were opening for Kiss at the time...(not VH though?)