KISS was supposed to do 5 nights at Madison Square Garden, New York City in Dynasty tour

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KISS was supposed to do 5 nights at Madison Square Garden, New York City in Dynasty tour

Post by Coventry1973 »

Always heard they were supposed to do more shows, but thought it was rumors.
I just saw a Dynasty tour list from George Sewitt that confirms they were supposed to do 5 nights at the famed arena, their hometown. They only played 2 nights. That had to be a huge letdown to them.
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Re: KISS was supposed to do 5 nights at Madison Square Garden, New York City in Dynasty tour

Post by Di3go »

The only way that Dynasty Tour could make a profit was through at least 3 shows per mayor markets, at best they did 2.
ThE production size and tour costs were gigantic, so they even had two stages built for the demand of several shows that in the end were cancelled.
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Re: KISS was supposed to do 5 nights at Madison Square Garden, New York City in Dynasty tour

Post by johnsaidwhat »

Opening nights in Lakeland FL were supposed to be June 14th and 15th.
The week of the show it was condensed to just June 15th.
Last edited by johnsaidwhat on Sat Jul 24, 2021 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: KISS was supposed to do 5 nights at Madison Square Garden, New York City in Dynasty tour

Post by KISSFACE »

If they were more of a jam band, every night could be an adventure. Never-repeating setlists. If you had No idea how a KISS show would start or finish, maybe you’d wanna catch a few more of them? Would multi-night stands have become a more realistic goal then?
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Re: KISS was supposed to do 5 nights at Madison Square Garden, New York City in Dynasty tour

Post by rwgriffith »

KISSFACE wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 4:05 pm If they were more of a jam band, every night could be an adventure. Never-repeating setlists. If you had No idea how a KISS show would start or finish, maybe you’d wanna catch a few more of them? Would multi-night stands have become a more realistic goal then?
Little changes to the set list would DEFINITELY help. Back in December of 1998, I went to three Psycho Circus shows in five days and all were EXACTLY the same! Argh! I still had fun, but it was a little boring in parts.
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Re: KISS was supposed to do 5 nights at Madison Square Garden, New York City in Dynasty tour

Post by Coventry1973 »

It also seemed like they were supposed to do 2 nights in Detroit, but that eventually became just the July 13th show.
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Re: KISS was supposed to do 5 nights at Madison Square Garden, New York City in Dynasty tour

Post by Hi I'm Witz »

My question is what in God's name were the indicators to them that they could pull that off?? Talk about hubris of the highest order!
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Re: KISS was supposed to do 5 nights at Madison Square Garden, New York City in Dynasty tour

Post by AxlisKing »

Coventry1973 wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 4:44 pm It also seemed like they were supposed to do 2 nights in Detroit, but that eventually became just the July 13th show.
How many tickets did they sell for that? That venue was massive.
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Re: KISS was supposed to do 5 nights at Madison Square Garden, New York City in Dynasty tour

Post by wayfarer »

Coventry1973 wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 3:11 pm Always heard they were supposed to do more shows, but thought it was rumors.
I just saw a Dynasty tour list from George Sewitt that confirms they were supposed to do 5 nights at the famed arena, their hometown. They only played 2 nights. That had to be a huge letdown to them.
21CC0379-84A8-499C-8B4C-12A62B26C89D.jpeg01AAEE5D-5DA4-4A38-9174-E13B94C6364D.jpeg
Awesome post thank you!! And to think all that information was typed back in the day...imagine the amount of time it took to put together the information associated with the logistics like the manuals here 🤘
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Re: KISS was supposed to do 5 nights at Madison Square Garden, New York City in Dynasty tour

Post by wayfarer »

AxlisKing wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 4:57 pm
Coventry1973 wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 4:44 pm It also seemed like they were supposed to do 2 nights in Detroit, but that eventually became just the July 13th show.
How many tickets did they sell for that? That venue was massive.
Two shows at the old Pontiac Silverdome would have been 50,000+ a night...but then it was advertised as the Mini Dome so I'm guessing it was a different configuration for the show...wonder if that show was filmed? Anyone know? 😉
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Re: KISS was supposed to do 5 nights at Madison Square Garden, New York City in Dynasty tour

Post by LordThurisaz »

Since they condensed a lot of dates, did they do other shows to make up for it or just sit around gathering moss?
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Re: KISS was supposed to do 5 nights at Madison Square Garden, New York City in Dynasty tour

Post by Kisscomplicated »

KISSFACE wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 4:05 pm If they were more of a jam band, every night could be an adventure. Never-repeating setlists. If you had No idea how a KISS show would start or finish, maybe you’d wanna catch a few more of them? Would multi-night stands have become a more realistic goal then?
Have you ever heard of lighting and pyro cues? Did you see a live Dynasty show ? I did , with my little 13 year old ass right up against the stage barricade. What you are proposing would have been something known as a cluster fuck. Now then , go look at an EOTR show , and tell me if " jamming " would work. No, why ? Same thing larger scale. Do you see those boxes and glow in the dark tape ? Thats so they won't get their asses caught on fire " stand here when that pyro goes off , stand here when these lights are on you " etc, etc, etc. JAMMING was something called The Convention Tour , what did they do there ? They sat on stools and Jammed. Yes indeed I was there for that too not once but caught 3 of them in various city's. I have attended every single tour since Destroyer. In person. As I got older, I traveled to various places, brining my to date total to 145 shows. I have LIVED the KISS people suppose about. I loved all line ups including the current one , my most treasured piece is Eric Cares autograph , I got in person. Nicest Gentleman you ever hope to meet . So you see all the negative hoo-doo here simply serves to tell me there are a number of people here who do not know the eyes of an 10 year old looking at the Destroyer show , I do , they were mine. Now these old peepers are 57 , and they looked and will look again at the EOTR show. And yes I know as much factual minutae as anybody here. This forum still has educational value , and certainly never ceases to make me laugh. Cheers ! Rock On ! Enjoy them while you can LIVE , that's what they ARE after all .
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Re: KISS was supposed to do 5 nights at Madison Square Garden, New York City in Dynasty tour

Post by JohnBergless »

So were all 5 days supposed to be actual concerts? I’m guessing so. I was wondering if one or two of them could have been like a video day, production upgrades/modification while they had the whole production built and sitting there. But I guess the schedule would indicate that. Seems strange to have a day off in the middle of it.
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Re: KISS was supposed to do 5 nights at Madison Square Garden, New York City in Dynasty tour

Post by jkiss »

JohnBergless wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 2:34 am So were all 5 days supposed to be actual concerts? I’m guessing so. I was wondering if one or two of them could have been like a video day, production upgrades/modification while they had the whole production built and sitting there. But I guess the schedule would indicate that. Seems strange to have a day off in the middle of it.
🧐 Check the sports/events schedule (of times past) & just maybe you'll find a game or something. 🏒

And if say, they didn't go 'Disco' 🧨 (& different costumes) & stuck to their guns (decent enough Hard Rock album); perhaps even as many as four nights at the Garden (circa 1979).

Plus, it would've been a bit of an additional draw, had they gotten that 'laser curtain' fully operational, too.

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Re: KISS was supposed to do 5 nights at Madison Square Garden, New York City in Dynasty tour

Post by Eddie Van Hazel »

KISS was riding high on the hog and feeling invincible by that point.
They probably thought the five nights at MSG would be an easy sell.

Maybe they were thinking ahead because the traveling amusement park (KISSWORLD) would have
been planted outside for the fans/concertgoers to partake in..(??)

It would have been interesting to see how they would have pulled that off.
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Re: KISS was supposed to do 5 nights at Madison Square Garden, New York City in Dynasty tour

Post by Madmax1979 »

C.K. Lendt's book Kiss and Sell also touches a good bit on the initial expectations of the Dynasty tour as opposed to what really ended up happening as far as selling shows. The band (Simmons) wanted to grow the whole spectacle bigger and bigger to the point of incorporating attractions outside of the venues. The harsh reality was popularity was already starting to decline as opposed as to the Love Gun /Alive II era which was only 1-2 years previous. Oversaturation.
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Re: KISS was supposed to do 5 nights at Madison Square Garden, New York City in Dynasty tour

Post by jkiss »

Eddie Van Hazel wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 7:48 am KISS was riding high on the hog and feeling invincible by that point.
They probably thought the five nights at MSG would be an easy sell.

Maybe they were thinking ahead because the traveling amusement park (KISSWORLD) would have
been planted outside for the fans/concertgoers to partake in..(??)

It would have been interesting to see how they would have pulled that off.
I believe that would've been Bill riding too high on whatever piles of coke he took long naps in (& same goes with Neil). 🤧

I really don't think any members of KISS were feeling overly comfortable, about the dark abyss they were heading straight into. And I'd even guess that when Gene told Pete (costume designer), that the tour was going to be their 'farewell tour' ...it was because he full-well knew of the high risk potential for ultra-serious backlash.

And probably because he fueled a bit of that himself, earlier on. 🧨
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Re: KISS was supposed to do 5 nights at Madison Square Garden, New York City in Dynasty tour

Post by Eddie Van Hazel »

Very true.

Almost hard to believe that the band that was crushing multiple shows at MSG in late 1977,
would be reduced to playing one show at The Palladium in 1980.

As Madmax1979 said....oversaturation.
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Re: KISS was supposed to do 5 nights at Madison Square Garden, New York City in Dynasty tour

Post by jkiss »

Eddie Van Hazel wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 8:37 am Very true.

Almost hard to believe that the band that was crushing multiple shows at MSG in late 1977,
would be reduced to playing one show at The Palladium in 1980.

As Madmax1979 said....oversaturation.
I believe had they done something else, KISS had the potential to play all five nights (3-4, if something typical of KISS), sold-out. And had they had something 'really good' that worked; as opposed to something working almost completely against themselves.

🤔
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Re: KISS was supposed to do 5 nights at Madison Square Garden, New York City in Dynasty tour

Post by mbrunn »

KISSFACE wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 4:05 pm If they were more of a jam band, every night could be an adventure. Never-repeating setlists. If you had No idea how a KISS show would start or finish, maybe you’d wanna catch a few more of them? Would multi-night stands have become a more realistic goal then?
IMO I don’t think that would have helped in 79. At that time they were somewhat of a “kiddie band”. Many shows were Mom & Dad taking their kids. I don’t think Mom & Dad would have taken “little Johnny” to an extra show or two because one night they dropped Christine Sixteen and replaced it with Almost Human. Families were (largely) on a fixed budget and I think regardless of the setlist were only going to take their kids to one show.

Years later, when the crowd became largely adults, I do agree that a changing setlist would help sell some more tickets. Just not in 1979 IMO.
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Re: KISS was supposed to do 5 nights at Madison Square Garden, New York City in Dynasty tour

Post by nfarend »

wayfarer wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 5:01 pm
AxlisKing wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 4:57 pm
Coventry1973 wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 4:44 pm It also seemed like they were supposed to do 2 nights in Detroit, but that eventually became just the July 13th show.
How many tickets did they sell for that? That venue was massive.
Two shows at the old Pontiac Silverdome would have been 50,000+ a night...but then it was advertised as the Mini Dome so I'm guessing it was a different configuration for the show...wonder if that show was filmed? Anyone know? 😉
Here's what the Mini Dome looked like I think.
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Re: KISS was supposed to do 5 nights at Madison Square Garden, New York City in Dynasty tour

Post by SpinningAcorn »

Eddie Van Hazel wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 7:48 am KISS was riding high on the hog and feeling invincible by that point.
They probably thought the five nights at MSG would be an easy sell.
They went from attempting to play Five Nights at MSG, to only playing 2.

The next year they wanted to do multiple nights at a club in New York City, but was only able to do a single night.

They really came crashing down
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Re: KISS was supposed to do 5 nights at Madison Square Garden, New York City in Dynasty tour

Post by jannep17 »

SpinningAcorn wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 10:25 am
Eddie Van Hazel wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 7:48 am KISS was riding high on the hog and feeling invincible by that point.
They probably thought the five nights at MSG would be an easy sell.
They went from attempting to play Five Nights at MSG, to only playing 2.

The next year they wanted to do multiple nights at a club in New York City, but was only able to do a single night.

They really came crashing down
I think they calculated that demand had increased after being away in 1978. They just didn't realize that everyone had moved on. Or had been confused by weird solo albums and the totally worthless movie.
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Re: KISS was supposed to do 5 nights at Madison Square Garden, New York City in Dynasty tour

Post by missingdiver »

Just shows how out of touch they were at that point. 1978 was a great year so i’m sure Aucoin just assumed it would continue to grow through 1979.
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Re: KISS was supposed to do 5 nights at Madison Square Garden, New York City in Dynasty tour

Post by jetcity »

Hi I'm Witz wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 4:52 pm My question is what in God's name were the indicators to them that they could pull that off?? Talk about hubris of the highest order!
Whose hubris?

Paul and Gene's? Or was it Bill Aucoin's? Or the folks at Glickman-Marks (Howard Marks, Chris Lendt, Ken Anderson)'? Tour manager Fritz Postlethwaite? Or what about the people (Jeff Franklin, Wally Meyrowitz) at KISS's booking agency ATI? Or how about Ron Delsener, the promoter of all five dates MSG reserved for shows (say nothing of the promoters of multiple-show bookings in Lakeland, Detroit, Pittsburgh, Atlanta, Savannah, Providence, Philly and Minneapolis)?

ALL of these people, and more, were involved in booking these dates.

Bear in mind, KISS was coming off two straight years of (almost) entirely sold out arena shows, and had a massive smash with I Was Made. And they did not have the blessing of hindsight to know that outside factors such as a steep decline in the Consumer Price Index (an indicator of the amount of disposable income and willingness to spend it) would take root in the U.S. in 1979 and impact the entertainment industry negatively.

This isn't an equation that relies upon just Gene Simmons's ego.
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Re: KISS was supposed to do 5 nights at Madison Square Garden, New York City in Dynasty tour

Post by destroyerrnro »

johnsaidwhat wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 3:44 pm Opening nights in Lakeland FL were supposed to be June 14th and 15th.
The week of the show it was condensed to just June 15th.
You are correct my friend. I had tickets for both nights but if my aging memory is correct, there was a rumor that Peter had cut his hand on a mirror and that was the reason for canceling the first night.
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Re: KISS was supposed to do 5 nights at Madison Square Garden, New York City in Dynasty tour

Post by B5Erik »

Funny thing, headlining ONE show at MSG is a really big deal.

Headlining TWO is monumental.

Just for perspective.
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Re: KISS was supposed to do 5 nights at Madison Square Garden, New York City in Dynasty tour

Post by TwistedTaste »

jetcity wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:52 am
Hi I'm Witz wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 4:52 pm My question is what in God's name were the indicators to them that they could pull that off?? Talk about hubris of the highest order!
Whose hubris?

Paul and Gene's? Or was it Bill Aucoin's? Or the folks at Glickman-Marks (Howard Marks, Chris Lendt, Ken Anderson)'? Tour manager Fritz Postlethwaite? Or what about the people (Jeff Franklin, Wally Meyrowitz) at KISS's booking agency ATI? Or how about Ron Delsener, the promoter of all five dates MSG reserved for shows (say nothing of the promoters of multiple-show bookings in Lakeland, Detroit, Pittsburgh, Atlanta, Savannah, Providence, Philly and Minneapolis)?

ALL of these people, and more, were involved in booking these dates.

Bear in mind, KISS was coming off two straight years of (almost) entirely sold out arena shows, and had a massive smash with I Was Made. And they did not have the blessing of hindsight to know that outside factors such as a steep decline in the Consumer Price Index (an indicator of the amount of disposable income and willingness to spend it) would take root in the U.S. in 1979 and impact the entertainment industry negatively.

This isn't an equation that relies upon just Gene Simmons's ego.
IWMFLY wasn’t a massive hit. And it was probably one of the biggest reasons they couldn’t do more than 2 shows at the garden. IWMFLY made the band totally uncool at the time (when they were already on thin ice after the crappy solo albums (other than Ace) & KMTPOTP
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Re: KISS was supposed to do 5 nights at Madison Square Garden, New York City in Dynasty tour

Post by Sam »

They only managed one show in Chicago, which was pretty weak considering it was still the second largest city in the US at the time. It might have helped if a better venue were available. The International Amphitheater was an old wreck originally built for livestock shows in a crappy area across from where the Stockyards used to be. I'm sure a lot of kids were prevented from going due to the dangerous neighborhood and venue (my mom stopped a pick-pocketing in the concession line). If the Rosemont Horizon had opened just a year earlier KISS probably could have done a second night.
Madmax1979 wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 8:10 am C.K. Lendt's book Kiss and Sell also touches a good bit on the initial expectations of the Dynasty tour as opposed to what really ended up happening as far as selling shows. The band (Simmons) wanted to grow the whole spectacle bigger and bigger to the point of incorporating attractions outside of the venues. The harsh reality was popularity was already starting to decline as opposed as to the Love Gun /Alive II era which was only 1-2 years previous. Oversaturation.
I remember Lendt talking about another idea that could have saved the tour: A scaled down 'B' show that could play smaller venues in secondary markets. This was proposed as a way to fill in the gaps after shows started falling off the itinerary. The band flat rejected it, saying they were now too big to beat the bushes like they used to.
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Re: KISS was supposed to do 5 nights at Madison Square Garden, New York City in Dynasty tour

Post by jetcity »

TwistedTaste wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:19 pm
jetcity wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:52 am
Hi I'm Witz wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 4:52 pm My question is what in God's name were the indicators to them that they could pull that off?? Talk about hubris of the highest order!
Whose hubris?

Paul and Gene's? Or was it Bill Aucoin's? Or the folks at Glickman-Marks (Howard Marks, Chris Lendt, Ken Anderson)'? Tour manager Fritz Postlethwaite? Or what about the people (Jeff Franklin, Wally Meyrowitz) at KISS's booking agency ATI? Or how about Ron Delsener, the promoter of all five dates MSG reserved for shows (say nothing of the promoters of multiple-show bookings in Lakeland, Detroit, Pittsburgh, Atlanta, Savannah, Providence, Philly and Minneapolis)?

ALL of these people, and more, were involved in booking these dates.

Bear in mind, KISS was coming off two straight years of (almost) entirely sold out arena shows, and had a massive smash with I Was Made. And they did not have the blessing of hindsight to know that outside factors such as a steep decline in the Consumer Price Index (an indicator of the amount of disposable income and willingness to spend it) would take root in the U.S. in 1979 and impact the entertainment industry negatively.

This isn't an equation that relies upon just Gene Simmons's ego.
IWMFLY wasn’t a massive hit. And it was probably one of the biggest reasons they couldn’t do more than 2 shows at the garden. IWMFLY made the band totally uncool at the time (when they were already on thin ice after the crappy solo albums (other than Ace) & KMTPOTP
Dynasty was out for just three weeks (and was selling briskly) by the time of the first show on June 14. And yet already ticket sales had forced cancellations (June 14 & 15 were combined into a single gig). Doesn't this suggest to us that the downturn in interest was already afoot before IWMFLY-aversion could play a big role?
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Re: KISS was supposed to do 5 nights at Madison Square Garden, New York City in Dynasty tour

Post by jconnors »

AxlisKing wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 4:57 pm
Coventry1973 wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 4:44 pm It also seemed like they were supposed to do 2 nights in Detroit, but that eventually became just the July 13th show.
How many tickets did they sell for that? That venue was massive.
35,000 attendance.
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Re: KISS was supposed to do 5 nights at Madison Square Garden, New York City in Dynasty tour

Post by Ted Maul's Paradise »

Coventry1973 wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 3:11 pm Always heard they were supposed to do more shows, but thought it was rumors.
I just saw a Dynasty tour list from George Sewitt that confirms they were supposed to do 5 nights at the famed arena, their hometown. They only played 2 nights. That had to be a huge letdown to them.
21CC0379-84A8-499C-8B4C-12A62B26C89D.jpeg01AAEE5D-5DA4-4A38-9174-E13B94C6364D.jpeg
Well, tickets were printed up for nights 3 & 4 at Madison Square Garden....I can't find the shot of the "3" ticket right now, but here's a photo for night "4", July 28.
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Re: KISS was supposed to do 5 nights at Madison Square Garden, New York City in Dynasty tour

Post by redinthesky »

They did play MSG for four nights in 1977, so thinking the band was even bigger in 1979, it stands to reason they may have figured five nights at MSG was doable, especially when other big acts were recently doing long stints there (Zep, The Who, Elton, Bee Gees, Rod, etc. They (Kiss, the management, whoever) simply didn't anticipate the backlash of the toys, movie and the disco-laced song.
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Re: KISS was supposed to do 5 nights at Madison Square Garden, New York City in Dynasty tour

Post by Grand Classic »

jetcity wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:38 pm
TwistedTaste wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:19 pm
jetcity wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:52 am
Hi I'm Witz wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 4:52 pm My question is what in God's name were the indicators to them that they could pull that off?? Talk about hubris of the highest order!
Whose hubris?

Paul and Gene's? Or was it Bill Aucoin's? Or the folks at Glickman-Marks (Howard Marks, Chris Lendt, Ken Anderson)'? Tour manager Fritz Postlethwaite? Or what about the people (Jeff Franklin, Wally Meyrowitz) at KISS's booking agency ATI? Or how about Ron Delsener, the promoter of all five dates MSG reserved for shows (say nothing of the promoters of multiple-show bookings in Lakeland, Detroit, Pittsburgh, Atlanta, Savannah, Providence, Philly and Minneapolis)?

ALL of these people, and more, were involved in booking these dates.

Bear in mind, KISS was coming off two straight years of (almost) entirely sold out arena shows, and had a massive smash with I Was Made. And they did not have the blessing of hindsight to know that outside factors such as a steep decline in the Consumer Price Index (an indicator of the amount of disposable income and willingness to spend it) would take root in the U.S. in 1979 and impact the entertainment industry negatively.

This isn't an equation that relies upon just Gene Simmons's ego.
IWMFLY wasn’t a massive hit. And it was probably one of the biggest reasons they couldn’t do more than 2 shows at the garden. IWMFLY made the band totally uncool at the time (when they were already on thin ice after the crappy solo albums (other than Ace) & KMTPOTP
Dynasty was out for just three weeks (and was selling briskly) by the time of the first show on June 14. And yet already ticket sales had forced cancellations (June 14 & 15 were combined into a single gig). Doesn't this suggest to us that the downturn in interest was already afoot before IWMFLY-aversion could play a big role?
Perhaps 3 weeks was enough for all the KISS fans who bought it expecting a hard rock record and were disgusted to hear do do do disco. We do know that Dynasty caused a fan exodus. They were like this essentially with KISS from this point on when it comes to albums or tours:

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Re: KISS was supposed to do 5 nights at Madison Square Garden, New York City in Dynasty tour

Post by Coventry1973 »

redinthesky wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:36 pm They did play MSG for four nights in 1977, so thinking the band was even bigger in 1979, it stands to reason they may have figured five nights at MSG was doable, especially when other big acts were recently doing long stints there (Zep, The Who, Elton, Bee Gees, Rod, etc. They (Kiss, the management, whoever) simply didn't anticipate the backlash of the toys, movie and the disco-laced song.
They did 3 nights at MSG in '77 I was there for the 12/16/1977 show. They did the 14, 15 and 16
In 1979 they did 2 nights at MSG 7/24 and 7/25 I was there the 24th
For the Reunion Tour they did 4 nights-- 7/25-7/28. I was there for all 4
:ace: :gene: :paul: :peter:
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Re: KISS was supposed to do 5 nights at Madison Square Garden, New York City in Dynasty tour

Post by redinthesky »

Coventry1973 wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 5:22 pm
redinthesky wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:36 pm They did play MSG for four nights in 1977, so thinking the band was even bigger in 1979, it stands to reason they may have figured five nights at MSG was doable, especially when other big acts were recently doing long stints there (Zep, The Who, Elton, Bee Gees, Rod, etc. They (Kiss, the management, whoever) simply didn't anticipate the backlash of the toys, movie and the disco-laced song.
They did 3 nights at MSG in '77 I was there for the 12/16/1977 show. They did the 14, 15 and 16
In 1979 they did 2 nights at MSG 7/24 and 7/25 I was there the 24th
For the Reunion Tour they did 4 nights-- 7/25-7/28. I was there for all 4
:ace: :gene: :paul: :peter:
I was including the February 18th, 1977 show at MSG, making the total for the year four nights. I should have specified they weren't all in one stint.
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Re: KISS was supposed to do 5 nights at Madison Square Garden, New York City in Dynasty tour

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nfarend wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 10:09 am
wayfarer wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 5:01 pm
AxlisKing wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 4:57 pm
Coventry1973 wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 4:44 pm It also seemed like they were supposed to do 2 nights in Detroit, but that eventually became just the July 13th show.
How many tickets did they sell for that? That venue was massive.
Two shows at the old Pontiac Silverdome would have been 50,000+ a night...but then it was advertised as the Mini Dome so I'm guessing it was a different configuration for the show...wonder if that show was filmed? Anyone know? 😉
Here's what the Mini Dome looked like I think.
Awesome thanks nfarend 🤘it would of made a great pro shot this show...I think the KISS organisation were riding high still on the popularity of 77-78 and only expecting it to keep on going...unfortunately that wasn't the case...still, I love seeing and reading this stuff!
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Re: KISS was supposed to do 5 nights at Madison Square Garden, New York City in Dynasty tour

Post by AxlisKing »

Sam wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:01 pm They only managed one show in Chicago, which was pretty weak considering it was still the second largest city in the US at the time. It might have helped if a better venue were available. The International Amphitheater was an old wreck originally built for livestock shows in a crappy area across from where the Stockyards used to be. I'm sure a lot of kids were prevented from going due to the dangerous neighborhood and venue (my mom stopped a pick-pocketing in the concession line). If the Rosemont Horizon had opened just a year earlier KISS probably could have done a second night.
Madmax1979 wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 8:10 am C.K. Lendt's book Kiss and Sell also touches a good bit on the initial expectations of the Dynasty tour as opposed to what really ended up happening as far as selling shows. The band (Simmons) wanted to grow the whole spectacle bigger and bigger to the point of incorporating attractions outside of the venues. The harsh reality was popularity was already starting to decline as opposed as to the Love Gun /Alive II era which was only 1-2 years previous. Oversaturation.
I remember Lendt talking about another idea that could have saved the tour: A scaled down 'B' show that could play smaller venues in secondary markets. This was proposed as a way to fill in the gaps after shows started falling off the itinerary. The band flat rejected it, saying they were now too big to beat the bushes like they used to.
That probably didn't help. The Hawks had a preseason game at the Stadium the night of the Amphitheater show.
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Re: KISS was supposed to do 5 nights at Madison Square Garden, New York City in Dynasty tour

Post by jkiss »

jetcity wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:38 pm
TwistedTaste wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:19 pm
jetcity wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:52 am
Hi I'm Witz wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 4:52 pm My question is what in God's name were the indicators to them that they could pull that off?? Talk about hubris of the highest order!
Whose hubris?

Paul and Gene's? Or was it Bill Aucoin's? Or the folks at Glickman-Marks (Howard Marks, Chris Lendt, Ken Anderson)'? Tour manager Fritz Postlethwaite? Or what about the people (Jeff Franklin, Wally Meyrowitz) at KISS's booking agency ATI? Or how about Ron Delsener, the promoter of all five dates MSG reserved for shows (say nothing of the promoters of multiple-show bookings in Lakeland, Detroit, Pittsburgh, Atlanta, Savannah, Providence, Philly and Minneapolis)?

ALL of these people, and more, were involved in booking these dates.

Bear in mind, KISS was coming off two straight years of (almost) entirely sold out arena shows, and had a massive smash with I Was Made. And they did not have the blessing of hindsight to know that outside factors such as a steep decline in the Consumer Price Index (an indicator of the amount of disposable income and willingness to spend it) would take root in the U.S. in 1979 and impact the entertainment industry negatively.

This isn't an equation that relies upon just Gene Simmons's ego.
IWMFLY wasn’t a massive hit. And it was probably one of the biggest reasons they couldn’t do more than 2 shows at the garden. IWMFLY made the band totally uncool at the time (when they were already on thin ice after the crappy solo albums (other than Ace) & KMTPOTP
Dynasty was out for just three weeks (and was selling briskly) by the time of the first show on June 14. And yet already ticket sales had forced cancellations (June 14 & 15 were combined into a single gig). Doesn't this suggest to us that the downturn in interest was already afoot before IWMFLY-aversion could play a big role?
No, but if someone doesn't remember, I guess they just don't remember. And if how they showed back-up doesn't look strangely or surprisingly 'Disco gay' & along with their Disco Mothership spaceship stage, I don't know what else to say. If someone is oblivious to 'Disco Culture', much like the 'KISS kids" (who salvaged or saved the tour) tended to be, sure "The Return of KISS" superheroes.

🤫

This is all something that 'instantly' pissed-off a lot of people. I would even easily bet it took less than one millisecond for them 'all' to decide. And 'poof', there goes at least half their US fanbase, just like that. And I would say if someone doesn't remember even this, they probably don't recall how 'extremely heavy handed' we commonly were with Gays/Homosexuals & Bisexuals (as a society), either.

🤬

'Disco Culture' & 'Gay Culture' was one in the same, in the US. 💡
Last edited by jkiss on Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: KISS was supposed to do 5 nights at Madison Square Garden, New York City in Dynasty tour

Post by jkiss »

redinthesky wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 5:38 pm
Coventry1973 wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 5:22 pm
redinthesky wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:36 pm They did play MSG for four nights in 1977, so thinking the band was even bigger in 1979, it stands to reason they may have figured five nights at MSG was doable, especially when other big acts were recently doing long stints there (Zep, The Who, Elton, Bee Gees, Rod, etc. They (Kiss, the management, whoever) simply didn't anticipate the backlash of the toys, movie and the disco-laced song.
They did 3 nights at MSG in '77 I was there for the 12/16/1977 show. They did the 14, 15 and 16
In 1979 they did 2 nights at MSG 7/24 and 7/25 I was there the 24th
For the Reunion Tour they did 4 nights-- 7/25-7/28. I was there for all 4
:ace: :gene: :paul: :peter:
I was including the February 18th, 1977 show at MSG, making the total for the year four nights. I should have specified they weren't all in one stint.
Despite major US backlash, "DYNASTY" sold very well, but just imagine had they come-out with what everyone was 'expecting them' to come-out with. There was a real buzz, a lot of fans were looking forward to their 1979 album. I was. I knew lots of fans that were, just like myself & in multiple US States. It's not like I existed in some weird bubble. I was a very social person, perhaps too social, but anyway.

KISS was big, in the area of 20-million 'albums' (shipped) in the US alone by that point & not even counting singles, either. 💡

Had they done what we expected them to do (being 'the militant' [teenage] fanbase that we were & I do agree with Bob Ezrin's observation), KISS just might have had themselves even 'a Number 1' album. Five nights @ the Garden, easy. Multiple dates in all major American cities (good chance), perhaps even in Canada as well. Fans will find the money, if you give them something 'they wanted'.

Economical forecasts is excuses & they had their excuse ready, even before going-out on the road (RE: Paul in "Billboard Magazine", circa 1979). Again, because they full-well knew that what they were attempting was either going to be huge or it was going to look more like a train-wreck.

🤔
Last edited by jkiss on Mon Jul 26, 2021 5:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: KISS was supposed to do 5 nights at Madison Square Garden, New York City in Dynasty tour

Post by Coventry1973 »

redinthesky wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 5:38 pm
Coventry1973 wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 5:22 pm
redinthesky wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:36 pm They did play MSG for four nights in 1977, so thinking the band was even bigger in 1979, it stands to reason they may have figured five nights at MSG was doable, especially when other big acts were recently doing long stints there (Zep, The Who, Elton, Bee Gees, Rod, etc. They (Kiss, the management, whoever) simply didn't anticipate the backlash of the toys, movie and the disco-laced song.
They did 3 nights at MSG in '77 I was there for the 12/16/1977 show. They did the 14, 15 and 16
In 1979 they did 2 nights at MSG 7/24 and 7/25 I was there the 24th
For the Reunion Tour they did 4 nights-- 7/25-7/28. I was there for all 4
:ace: :gene: :paul: :peter:
I was including the February 18th, 1977 show at MSG, making the total for the year four nights. I should have specified they weren't all in one stint.
Ahhhh..... Yes Grasshopper, you are correct!! You teach me well. :D
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Re: KISS was supposed to do 5 nights at Madison Square Garden, New York City in Dynasty tour

Post by BC Witch »

KISSFACE wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 4:05 pm If they were more of a jam band, every night could be an adventure. Never-repeating setlists. If you had No idea how a KISS show would start or finish, maybe you’d wanna catch a few more of them? Would multi-night stands have become a more realistic goal then?
That's a good point. Were the multiple dates booked because they thought there were so many different people who wanted to see them? Or did they think that a large amount of the same fans would turn up for multiple shows? Considering the fact that the audience was very young back then, compared to now, it seems crazy that they thought kids (or their parents) would (or could afford to) buy tickets for two or three consecutive KISS gigs.

The whole tour concept seems so badly thought out when you look at it in retrospect.
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Re: KISS was supposed to do 5 nights at Madison Square Garden, New York City in Dynasty tour

Post by BC Witch »

jkiss wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:13 am
redinthesky wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 5:38 pm
Coventry1973 wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 5:22 pm
redinthesky wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:36 pm They did play MSG for four nights in 1977, so thinking the band was even bigger in 1979, it stands to reason they may have figured five nights at MSG was doable, especially when other big acts were recently doing long stints there (Zep, The Who, Elton, Bee Gees, Rod, etc. They (Kiss, the management, whoever) simply didn't anticipate the backlash of the toys, movie and the disco-laced song.
They did 3 nights at MSG in '77 I was there for the 12/16/1977 show. They did the 14, 15 and 16
In 1979 they did 2 nights at MSG 7/24 and 7/25 I was there the 24th
For the Reunion Tour they did 4 nights-- 7/25-7/28. I was there for all 4
:ace: :gene: :paul: :peter:
I was including the February 18th, 1977 show at MSG, making the total for the year four nights. I should have specified they weren't all in one stint.
Despite major US backlash, "DYNASTY" sold very well, but just imagine had they come-out with what everyone was 'expecting them' to come-out with. There was a real buzz, a lot of fans were looking forward to their 1979 album. I was. I knew lots of fans that were, just like myself & in multiple US States. It's not like I existed in some weird bubble. I was a very social person, perhaps too social, but anyway.

KISS was big, in the area of 20-million 'albums' (shipped) in the US alone by that point & not even counting singles, either. 💡

Had they done what we expected them to do (being 'the militant' [teenage] fanbase that we were & I do agree with Bob Ezrin's observation), KISS just might have had themselves even 'a Number 1' album. Five nights @ the Garden, easy. Multiple dates in all major American cities (good chance), perhaps even in Canada as well. Fans will find the money, if you give them something 'they wanted'.

Economical forecasts is excuses & they had their excuse ready, even before going-out on the road (RE: Paul in "Billboard Magazine", circa 1979). Again, because they full-well knew that would they were attempting was either going to be huge or it was going to look more like a train-wreck.

🤔
As a fan at the time, was it the sound of Dynasty or the OTT glitzy costumes that put you off the most? I imagine that all the glitter and mirrors and bright colours would have been VERY at odds with what the fans were expecting the 'new KISS' look to be at that time.
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Re: KISS was supposed to do 5 nights at Madison Square Garden, New York City in Dynasty tour

Post by jkiss »

BC Witch wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 5:05 am
jkiss wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:13 am
redinthesky wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 5:38 pm
Coventry1973 wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 5:22 pm

They did 3 nights at MSG in '77 I was there for the 12/16/1977 show. They did the 14, 15 and 16
In 1979 they did 2 nights at MSG 7/24 and 7/25 I was there the 24th
For the Reunion Tour they did 4 nights-- 7/25-7/28. I was there for all 4
:ace: :gene: :paul: :peter:
I was including the February 18th, 1977 show at MSG, making the total for the year four nights. I should have specified they weren't all in one stint.
Despite major US backlash, "DYNASTY" sold very well, but just imagine had they come-out with what everyone was 'expecting them' to come-out with. There was a real buzz, a lot of fans were looking forward to their 1979 album. I was. I knew lots of fans that were, just like myself & in multiple US States. It's not like I existed in some weird bubble. I was a very social person, perhaps too social, but anyway.

KISS was big, in the area of 20-million 'albums' (shipped) in the US alone by that point & not even counting singles, either. 💡

Had they done what we expected them to do (being 'the militant' [teenage] fanbase that we were & I do agree with Bob Ezrin's observation), KISS just might have had themselves even 'a Number 1' album. Five nights @ the Garden, easy. Multiple dates in all major American cities (good chance), perhaps even in Canada as well. Fans will find the money, if you give them something 'they wanted'.

Economical forecasts is excuses & they had their excuse ready, even before going-out on the road (RE: Paul in "Billboard Magazine", circa 1979). Again, because they full-well knew that would they were attempting was either going to be huge or it was going to look more like a train-wreck.

🤔
As a fan at the time, was it the sound of Dynasty or the OTT glitzy costumes that put you off the most? I imagine that all the glitter and mirrors and bright colours would have been VERY at odds with what the fans were expecting the 'new KISS' look to be at that time.
I'm a woman. I commonly hung-out in the Discos as well & danced the evening away. I didn't have a problem with 'Disco Culture', myself. I am also Roman Catholic, I know quite precisely what the extremely serious issues that were had with homosexuality & from a religious upbringing. I saw with my own two eyes what commonly happened to gay people, going all-the-way back to the 1960's. And it was absolutely brutal.

And when I became aware what they were coming at us with "DYNASTY"; I undoubtedly knew what would happen & I could've easily told KISS this, myself (& had I the foreknowledge about what they going to try).

I also believe Gene knew what potentially could happen & like I stated earlier in this thread; he was just as guilty fueling the flames against Disco/Disco Culture (& because I remember), prior. And then goes to ban Desmond Child from even being allowed near him or Paul (without Paul's knowledge); in the aftermath of the disaster.

Gene must've felt he looked like a real hypocrite (w. cream-pie mushed all over his face), but that wouldn't be first time, nor the last (as we all [already should] know).

😐
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Re: KISS was supposed to do 5 nights at Madison Square Garden, New York City in Dynasty tour

Post by jkiss »

BC Witch wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 5:01 am
KISSFACE wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 4:05 pm If they were more of a jam band, every night could be an adventure. Never-repeating setlists. If you had No idea how a KISS show would start or finish, maybe you’d wanna catch a few more of them? Would multi-night stands have become a more realistic goal then?
That's a good point. Were the multiple dates booked because they thought there were so many different people who wanted to see them? Or did they think that a large amount of the same fans would turn up for multiple shows? Considering the fact that the audience was very young back then, compared to now, it seems crazy that they thought kids (or their parents) would (or could afford to) buy tickets for two or three consecutive KISS gigs.

The whole tour concept seems so badly thought out when you look at it in retrospect.
Those arena seats wouldn't have been easily available for all those 'KISS kids' parents to snap-up & had the teenage boys (that now didn't want them) wanted them. It's very simple. The 'KISS kids' were always around & all-the-way back to the "ALIVE!" tour. I saw them, but in smaller pockets.

I saw them at the shows & I even knew many of them because I babysat them, myself. The 'KISS kids' salvaged/saved the "DYNASTY" tour.

Excuses, deception & revisionism: DYNASTY KISSTORY.

🥱
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Re: KISS was supposed to do 5 nights at Madison Square Garden, New York City in Dynasty tour

Post by vdojaq »

KISSFACE wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 4:05 pm If they were more of a jam band, every night could be an adventure. Never-repeating setlists. If you had No idea how a KISS show would start or finish, maybe you’d wanna catch a few more of them? Would multi-night stands have become a more realistic goal then?
Disagree. 1979 was still a time that album sales were a direct correlation to how a tour would sell. Kiss had already jumped the shark. 1977/78, Kiss could fill any arena in the U.S. or Canada, multiple nights. By 1980, they couldn't even tour the States.

A revised history that could have kept them in the game. Release the solo albums in 1979, do a follow up album to Love Gun for 1980. No KMTPOTP, No disco flavored Dynasty or color based superhero outfits, use an industrial stage set-up and KISS 79/80 would have still KICKED MAJOR ASS. Peter still leaves, we still Get Eric Carr, but Ace doesn't leave because there would be no Unmasked and no Elder.
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Re: KISS was supposed to do 5 nights at Madison Square Garden, New York City in Dynasty tour

Post by BC Witch »

jkiss wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 6:02 am
BC Witch wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 5:01 am
KISSFACE wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 4:05 pm If they were more of a jam band, every night could be an adventure. Never-repeating setlists. If you had No idea how a KISS show would start or finish, maybe you’d wanna catch a few more of them? Would multi-night stands have become a more realistic goal then?
That's a good point. Were the multiple dates booked because they thought there were so many different people who wanted to see them? Or did they think that a large amount of the same fans would turn up for multiple shows? Considering the fact that the audience was very young back then, compared to now, it seems crazy that they thought kids (or their parents) would (or could afford to) buy tickets for two or three consecutive KISS gigs.

The whole tour concept seems so badly thought out when you look at it in retrospect.
Those arena seats wouldn't have been easily available for all those 'KISS kids' parents to snap-up & had the teenage boys (that now didn't want them) wanted them. It's very simple. The 'KISS kids' were always around & all-the-way back to the "ALIVE!" tour. I saw them, but in smaller pockets.

I saw them at the shows & I even knew many of them because I babysat them, myself. The 'KISS kids' salvaged/saved the "DYNASTY" tour.

Excuses, deception & revisionism: DYNASTY KISSTORY.

🥱
I grew up in the UK and got into KISS (from seeing them in a Marvel comic) in 1980 (when I was 11) so my perception of KISS in the USA is based totally on what I read. I have no real idea what the age range of the audiences were or how they changed (or if they did) for Dynasty. I was just guessing that lot of the fans weren't necessarily buying their own tickets and had a parent buy them for them. I'm also guessing that the audience was mainly working class people who didn't have a lot of money to blow on seeing KISS three days in a row! I don't know if that's accurate or not.

I always enjoy your posts. Great to read the point of view of someone who was there at the time. You also seem to have some first hand inside knowledge of stuff going on in the KISS camp at the time. Always good to hear about that stuff.
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Re: KISS was supposed to do 5 nights at Madison Square Garden, New York City in Dynasty tour

Post by Tommyr »

B5Erik wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:01 pm Funny thing, headlining ONE show at MSG is a really big deal.

Headlining TWO is monumental.

Just for perspective.
Let's not forget that because the original 4 got back together in 1996 they were able to have * 4 * back to back MSG shows. That is really something. No way could they do that without Ace & Peter.
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Re: KISS was supposed to do 5 nights at Madison Square Garden, New York City in Dynasty tour

Post by Tommyr »

TwistedTaste wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:19 pm
IWMFLY wasn’t a massive hit. And it was probably one of the biggest reasons they couldn’t do more than 2 shows at the garden. IWMFLY made the band totally uncool at the time (when they were already on thin ice after the crappy solo albums (other than Ace) & KMTPOTP
I totally agree. "I was made..." was not as big a hit here as say maybe other countries. It turned a TON of us fans off. It made me sick.
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Re: KISS was supposed to do 5 nights at Madison Square Garden, New York City in Dynasty tour

Post by nfarend »

Tommyr wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 7:03 am
B5Erik wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:01 pm Funny thing, headlining ONE show at MSG is a really big deal.

Headlining TWO is monumental.

Just for perspective.
Let's not forget that because the original 4 got back together in 1996 they were able to have * 4 * back to back MSG shows. That is really something. No way could they do that without Ace & Peter.
Well, maybe the show, the outfits and the make up would have done the trick as well. At least partially.