Rate 'The Elder'

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Rate 'The Elder'

0
13
6%
1
6
3%
2
9
4%
3
11
5%
4
12
5%
5
19
8%
6
31
13%
7
31
13%
8
37
16%
9
29
12%
10
38
16%
 
Total votes: 236

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Re: Rate 'The Elder'

Post by Hotter Than Heck » Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:16 pm

11

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Re: Rate 'The Elder'

Post by Nately120 » Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:20 pm

scotty_rhoads wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:02 am
those who gave a low rating know nothing of why the album exists.

i'll give the easy explanation.

imagine pink floyd makes the wall, half finished, other half not recorded, and the movie never materializes. that is exactly what the elder is. but i love the fact we have at least something
Comparing this to The Wall is part of what makes the whole thing seem like a clusterfudge. The Wall got a movie 3 years later, it was an album, not a musical for a movie (that I know of...I never thought about it). Plus, the fact that the record label decided to throw the story out the window in order to lead it off with a rockin' tune says a lot of what they thought about KISS' audience. Imagine if Roger Waters had been told that his story is important, but they need to put Young Lust as the albums opener to make sure people don't just get bored and tune out. Sure, it's important that we learn about your father being killed in WWII, but if we don't kick this thing off with a rocker, what's the point?

To get super nerdy, KISS using outside songs and so much outside help to make a concept album reminds me of Peter & Gordon and Chad & Jeremy getting lots of outside help and outside writers to make a "Sgt Peppers" album in the late 60s. That sort of thing can be good, but you're trying to artificially extend into an area and the output sounds like a C- knockoff.

No one seemed to be very behind this album, Eric was doing what he was told, Ace was beyond skeptical, the record label brought in cover songs and outside writers and decided to sacrifice story for a rockin' sequence, the movie was never made, they didn't bother to tour to support it, etc.. Meh...I don't hate the album, but I'm still surprised they didn't just pull the plug on the whole thing.



SIDE NOTE - A World Without Heroes is one of my favorite KISS songs. I just prefer how Destroyer is a pseudo concept album about the showbiz lifestyle, rather than a full-blown concept failure like The Elder.

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Re: Rate 'The Elder'

Post by Hi I'm Witz » Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:45 pm

,
Last edited by Hi I'm Witz on Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Rate 'The Elder'

Post by Much Too Soon » Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:37 pm

4 of 10. I tried....I really tried to like it. The closest I’ve come is to simply tolerate it.
Dynasty, Unmasked, and The Elder.... what a triple clusterf**k
Why?

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Re: Rate 'The Elder'

Post by Hi I'm Witz » Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:55 pm

Inspired by a quote from Brad Pitt in the movie Moneyball...

There's good albums and there's poor albums. Then there's 50 feet of crap! And then there's The Elder!

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Re: Rate 'The Elder'

Post by scotty_rhoads » Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:01 pm

Nately120 wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:20 pm
scotty_rhoads wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:02 am
those who gave a low rating know nothing of why the album exists.

i'll give the easy explanation.

imagine pink floyd makes the wall, half finished, other half not recorded, and the movie never materializes. that is exactly what the elder is. but i love the fact we have at least something
Comparing this to The Wall is part of what makes the whole thing seem like a clusterfudge. The Wall got a movie 3 years later, it was an album, not a musical for a movie (that I know of...I never thought about it). Plus, the fact that the record label decided to throw the story out the window in order to lead it off with a rockin' tune says a lot of what they thought about KISS' audience. Imagine if Roger Waters had been told that his story is important, but they need to put Young Lust as the albums opener to make sure people don't just get bored and tune out. Sure, it's important that we learn about your father being killed in WWII, but if we don't kick this thing off with a rocker, what's the point?

To get super nerdy, KISS using outside songs and so much outside help to make a concept album reminds me of Peter & Gordon and Chad & Jeremy getting lots of outside help and outside writers to make a "Sgt Peppers" album in the late 60s. That sort of thing can be good, but you're trying to artificially extend into an area and the output sounds like a C- knockoff.

No one seemed to be very behind this album, Eric was doing what he was told, Ace was beyond skeptical, the record label brought in cover songs and outside writers and decided to sacrifice story for a rockin' sequence, the movie was never made, they didn't bother to tour to support it, etc.. Meh...I don't hate the album, but I'm still surprised they didn't just pull the plug on the whole thing.



SIDE NOTE - A World Without Heroes is one of my favorite KISS songs. I just prefer how Destroyer is a pseudo concept album about the showbiz lifestyle, rather than a full-blown concept failure like The Elder.

how hard is the comparison? bob ezrin pulled the strings on both.

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Re: Rate 'The Elder'

Post by acefan1975 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:17 pm

I like The Oath, I, World Without Heros, and Dark Light. Besides that can’t stand it. I gave it a 6

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Re: Rate 'The Elder'

Post by Wichita77 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:19 pm

10 all the way. I love the Elder. Always have. Back when it was released, I thought it was the perfect next step for KISS. I had written my own rock opera by then, so I was completely into this when it came out. I remember the day it was released, my girlfriend, who worked at Sound Warehouse at the time, played it on the house system just for me. She said that the customers loved it until they found out it was KISS.

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Re: Rate 'The Elder'

Post by Reverend Colonel » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:08 am

I think it's the worst album in the catalog, full stop. It's one of the most fascinating times in the band's history, though, because jesus christ how the fuck did we even get here? If I didn't know any better, I'd be 100% convinced everyone involved with making this record was on cocaine.

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Re: Rate 'The Elder'

Post by UglySickJoker » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:56 am

Together with ‘Unmasked’ the best KISS album in the ‘80’s...

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Re: Rate 'The Elder'

Post by Tito » Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:01 am

UglySickJoker wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:56 am
Together with ‘Unmasked’ the best KISS album in the ‘80’s...
Whoah, settle down! Let me introduce you to my friends Creatures of the Night and Lick It Up. :wink:

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Re: Rate 'The Elder'

Post by UglySickJoker » Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:07 am

Tito wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:01 am
UglySickJoker wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:56 am
Together with ‘Unmasked’ the best KISS album in the ‘80’s...
Whoah, settle down! Let me introduce you to my friends Creatures of the Night and Lick It Up. :wink:
Little above average albums in my book... too much filler material....

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Re: Rate 'The Elder'

Post by Blackwaterrisin » Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:55 am

Wichita77 wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:19 pm
I remember the day it was released, my girlfriend, who worked at Sound Warehouse at the time, played it on the house system just for me.She said that the customers loved it until they found out it was KISS.
This is the experience I've had playing "deep cut" Kiss for a lot of non-fans.
A memory I recount often is when I was playing "Only You" and a friend asked "What is this? It's interesting..."
as soon as I told him it was Kiss
you could see all the interest leave his face.

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Re: Rate 'The Elder'

Post by fazelinear » Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:57 am

9/10

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Re: Rate 'The Elder'

Post by Tito » Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:14 am

Blackwaterrisin wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:55 am
Wichita77 wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:19 pm
I remember the day it was released, my girlfriend, who worked at Sound Warehouse at the time, played it on the house system just for me.She said that the customers loved it until they found out it was KISS.
This is the experience I've had playing "deep cut" Kiss for a lot of non-fans.
A memory I recount often is when I was playing "Only You" and a friend asked "What is this? It's interesting..."
as soon as I told him it was Kiss
you could see all the interest leave his face.
Same thing, I played "Journey of 1,000 Years" to a friend who was all "whoah WTF is this?!" Until he found out. Their loss. :wink:

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Re: Rate 'The Elder'

Post by hooligan3 » Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:14 am

I give the album a solid 8. I like the production and the songs are really good. I wish it had a more rocking opener to engage the listener, but that's my only major complaint. The costumes are some of my favorite. Each member's makeup looks great, the costumes are much sleeker, and they look hungry. The only thing I didn't care for was Paul's bandanna.

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Re: Rate 'The Elder'

Post by Thunderous_Lay » Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:24 am

Blackwaterrisin wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:55 am
This is the experience I've had playing "deep cut" Kiss for a lot of non-fans.
A memory I recount often is when I was playing "Only You" and a friend asked "What is this? It's interesting..."
as soon as I told him it was Kiss
you could see all the interest leave his face.
I used to lie to people outright when I played KISS songs, deep cuts or otherwise; never bugged me.

Parasite ? The Parasite Song, before it became the Immigrant Song.
Makin' Love ? The genesis of Communication Breakdown; an outtake, if you will.
Nothin' to Lose ? Beatles outtake from the White Album.

No one cared - or at the very least, most didn't bother checking if I was being deceitful.

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Re: Rate 'The Elder'

Post by FlamingRuth » Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:29 am

Blackwaterrisin wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:55 am
Wichita77 wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:19 pm
I remember the day it was released, my girlfriend, who worked at Sound Warehouse at the time, played it on the house system just for me.She said that the customers loved it until they found out it was KISS.
This is the experience I've had playing "deep cut" Kiss for a lot of non-fans.
A memory I recount often is when I was playing "Only You" and a friend asked "What is this? It's interesting..."
as soon as I told him it was Kiss
you could see all the interest leave his face.
What a shame...these people are missing out on so much good music because they can't get past the image.
I've known people who flat out refused to even listen to a song or album I recommended just because it was Kiss.
I remember when Dynasty came out, I wanted to play 2,000 Man for a family member who is a big Stones fan. I was just a kid ( a 12 year old-for real!) , looking to share my excitement & this arrogant grown man totally rejected the idea . That was my first memorable experience with closed-mindedness.

I've been fortunate to have the exact opposite experience a few times. I've played Kiss songs for people who were pleasantly surprised to find out that Kiss sounded better than they expected. They didn't all run out and become devoted fans, but the positive reaction made me feel good. 8)

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Re: Rate 'The Elder'

Post by ZachAttack » Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:40 am

if The Oath was on any other album it would be hailed as one of their best songs

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Re: Rate 'The Elder'

Post by FlamingRuth » Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:42 am

ZachAttack wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:40 am
if The Oath was on any other album it would be hailed as one of their best songs
I agree.

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Re: Rate 'The Elder'

Post by ashorama » Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:53 am

I'd give it a 1.5/5 stars. The performances are good. Probably some of Gene and Paul's best vocal performances. But I just don't think the songs are very tuneful. I don't go away humming the songs, and there's nothing on them that elevates them to level of a "great" song. There's a lot of style (and posturing) over substance.

Could Kiss have pulled off a concept album? Maybe. Even The Who's Who's Next was an abandoned concept album because it just wasn't working. I think Kiss should've scrapped The Elder and used those ideas for other songs. Also, with a different production style. Imagine how "Mr. Blackwell" could've sounded with Martin Birch at the helm.

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Re: Rate 'The Elder'

Post by Where's Drago? » Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:59 am

7

A few too many clunkers for my liking - but as someone mentioned in some other thread the one-two of Only You / Under The Rose is worth the admission alone.

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Re: Rate 'The Elder'

Post by FlamingRuth » Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:07 am

ashorama wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:53 am
I'd give it a 1.5/5 stars. The performances are good. Probably some of Gene and Paul's best vocal performances. But I just don't think the songs are very tuneful. I don't go away humming the songs, and there's nothing on them that elevates them to level of a "great" song. There's a lot of style (and posturing) over substance.

Could Kiss have pulled off a concept album? Maybe. Even The Who's Who's Next was an abandoned concept album because it just wasn't working. I think Kiss should've scrapped The Elder and used those ideas for other songs. Also, with a different production style. Imagine how "Mr. Blackwell" could've sounded with Martin Birch at the helm.
This is an interesting review because you give it a very low rating, yet still acknowledge that at least some of the songs have potential.
I rate it higher because I genuinely enjoy the album, but I agree with you that some of the songs would have worked better on a "regular", non-concept album. The Oath, Dark Light & Only You could have been used on any Kiss album and I think some fans would have appreciated them more that way.

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Re: Rate 'The Elder'

Post by ashorama » Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:48 am

FlamingRuth wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:07 am
ashorama wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:53 am
I'd give it a 1.5/5 stars. The performances are good. Probably some of Gene and Paul's best vocal performances. But I just don't think the songs are very tuneful. I don't go away humming the songs, and there's nothing on them that elevates them to level of a "great" song. There's a lot of style (and posturing) over substance.

Could Kiss have pulled off a concept album? Maybe. Even The Who's Who's Next was an abandoned concept album because it just wasn't working. I think Kiss should've scrapped The Elder and used those ideas for other songs. Also, with a different production style. Imagine how "Mr. Blackwell" could've sounded with Martin Birch at the helm.
This is an interesting review because you give it a very low rating, yet still acknowledge that at least some of the songs have potential.
I rate it higher because I genuinely enjoy the album, but I agree with you that some of the songs would have worked better on a "regular", non-concept album. The Oath, Dark Light & Only You could have been used on any Kiss album and I think some fans would have appreciated them more that way.
Lots of potential just not a lot of fully realized songs. That's just my take today. Tomorrow I could (possibly) feel different about it. On the whole, I don't think it's much of an album. The tunes just aren't there. Having said that, I'm the last person to ask. I don't think Creatures of the Night is a great album either, which is Kiss heresy.

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Re: Rate 'The Elder'

Post by Nately120 » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:46 am

scotty_rhoads wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:01 pm
Nately120 wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:20 pm
scotty_rhoads wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:02 am
those who gave a low rating know nothing of why the album exists.

i'll give the easy explanation.

imagine pink floyd makes the wall, half finished, other half not recorded, and the movie never materializes. that is exactly what the elder is. but i love the fact we have at least something
Comparing this to The Wall is part of what makes the whole thing seem like a clusterfudge. The Wall got a movie 3 years later, it was an album, not a musical for a movie (that I know of...I never thought about it). Plus, the fact that the record label decided to throw the story out the window in order to lead it off with a rockin' tune says a lot of what they thought about KISS' audience. Imagine if Roger Waters had been told that his story is important, but they need to put Young Lust as the albums opener to make sure people don't just get bored and tune out. Sure, it's important that we learn about your father being killed in WWII, but if we don't kick this thing off with a rocker, what's the point?

To get super nerdy, KISS using outside songs and so much outside help to make a concept album reminds me of Peter & Gordon and Chad & Jeremy getting lots of outside help and outside writers to make a "Sgt Peppers" album in the late 60s. That sort of thing can be good, but you're trying to artificially extend into an area and the output sounds like a C- knockoff.

No one seemed to be very behind this album, Eric was doing what he was told, Ace was beyond skeptical, the record label brought in cover songs and outside writers and decided to sacrifice story for a rockin' sequence, the movie was never made, they didn't bother to tour to support it, etc.. Meh...I don't hate the album, but I'm still surprised they didn't just pull the plug on the whole thing.



SIDE NOTE - A World Without Heroes is one of my favorite KISS songs. I just prefer how Destroyer is a pseudo concept album about the showbiz lifestyle, rather than a full-blown concept failure like The Elder.

how hard is the comparison? bob ezrin pulled the strings on both.
And yet he didn't have the clout to stop the label from rearranging this story, unlike The Wall and the creative idea needed lots of outside input. Just not very legit by concept album standards. Seems more like a screenplay that has gone through 20 rewrites and co authors before the finished product collapses over the finish line.

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Re: Rate 'The Elder'

Post by Tito » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:56 am

scotty_rhoads wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:02 am
imagine pink floyd makes the wall, half finished, other half not recorded, and the movie never materializes. that is exactly what the elder is. but i love the fact we have at least something
One of those bands had made experimental, conceptual music for over a decade before recording that album. The other is KISS. Yeah, that comparison totally works. Putting The Elder up against Pink Floyd only makes it worse.

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Re: Rate 'The Elder'

Post by Nately120 » Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:51 am

Tito wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:56 am
scotty_rhoads wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:02 am
imagine pink floyd makes the wall, half finished, other half not recorded, and the movie never materializes. that is exactly what the elder is. but i love the fact we have at least something
One of those bands had made experimental, conceptual music for over a decade before recording that album. The other is KISS. Yeah, that comparison totally works. Putting The Elder up against Pink Floyd only makes it worse.
Concept albums are one thing, but don't the Elder and the Wall both go for an actual story driven narrative? The Wall started a 4 album string of actual story albums written by Roger Waters. As much ad I like The Wall, it is clearly different from the established Pink Floyd model, and the Final Cut took it a step further and was the death of the core 4 guys in the band.

Honestly, other than the Ezrin connection (which is huge, granted) the Elder sounds more like something Rick Wakeman would have pasted together in an afternoon.

EDIT - Not to sound like I'm here simply extolling the virtue of Rogers Waters, either. The guy followed The Wall with what I deem to be 3 half-baked story albums before he went on hiatus and then went back to broad concepts and less story-driven narratives. The guy had one great story-album in him in the past 40 years and counting.

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Re: Rate 'The Elder'

Post by Parallax1 » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:02 pm

I liked it a lot when I used to smoke weed.
Not so much now. World Without Heroes is a great song.

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Re: Rate 'The Elder'

Post by Pete2174 » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:06 pm

Shit sandwich.

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Re: Rate 'The Elder'

Post by Bruce » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:11 pm

MtnKissFan wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:17 am
:puker: Paul's costume :pukel:

Eric was probably thinking "wtf, I thought I was going to be joining a rock band?"
That's how I would've been, too!

Image

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Re: Rate 'The Elder'

Post by scotty_rhoads » Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:56 am

Tito wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:56 am
scotty_rhoads wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:02 am
imagine pink floyd makes the wall, half finished, other half not recorded, and the movie never materializes. that is exactly what the elder is. but i love the fact we have at least something
One of those bands had made experimental, conceptual music for over a decade before recording that album. The other is KISS. Yeah, that comparison totally works. Putting The Elder up against Pink Floyd only makes it worse.
your argument is like saying the navy seals are better than the marines

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Re: Rate 'The Elder'

Post by Thunderous_Lay » Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:14 am

scotty_rhoads wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:56 am
Tito wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:56 am
scotty_rhoads wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:02 am
imagine pink floyd makes the wall, half finished, other half not recorded, and the movie never materializes. that is exactly what the elder is. but i love the fact we have at least something
One of those bands had made experimental, conceptual music for over a decade before recording that album. The other is KISS. Yeah, that comparison totally works. Putting The Elder up against Pink Floyd only makes it worse.
your argument is like saying the navy seals are better than the marines
The SAS is cooler than either one.

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Re: Rate 'The Elder'

Post by PUNCHLINE » Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:20 am

Its an album that, for me, gets worse over time.

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Re: Rate 'The Elder'

Post by Nellcote71 » Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:55 am

I wish the Elder was a double album that Ace was fully invested/utilized in. It needed to be a double album to flesh out the concept. Don’t know if they had the songs at the time but it always felt 1/2 baked to me & not fully realized if that makes any sense.

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Re: Rate 'The Elder'

Post by Tito » Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:01 am

PUNCHLINE wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:20 am
Its an album that, for me, gets worse over time.
Yeah I agree. When I first heard it as kid I had no knowledge, understanding or interest in progressive, experimental, psychedelic (etc.) rock. So to me it was just a weird KISS album. Since then I've gotten quite a lot better versed in said sub genres, and as a result, like you said, the album just keeps getting worse.

I see a lot of KISS fans repeating the wisdom "it's a great album just not a great KISS album", I think maybe even Paul Stanley said that somewhere. Well I'm sorry, but the truth is it's not a great KISS album and an even worse progressive rock album.

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Re: Rate 'The Elder'

Post by PUNCHLINE » Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:30 am

Tito wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:01 am
PUNCHLINE wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:20 am
Its an album that, for me, gets worse over time.
Yeah I agree. When I first heard it as kid I had no knowledge, understanding or interest in progressive, experimental, psychedelic (etc.) rock. So to me it was just a weird KISS album. Since then I've gotten quite a lot better versed in said sub genres, and as a result, like you said, the album just keeps getting worse.

I see a lot of KISS fans repeating the wisdom "it's a great album just not a great KISS album", I think maybe even Paul Stanley said that somewhere. Well I'm sorry, but the truth is it's not a great KISS album and an even worse progressive rock album.
Its definitely not a good album, though there are a few good bits on there. Overall its just pretty dreadful. Heavy handed, directionless, hammy and very forced sounding.

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ManOf1000Faces
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Re: Rate 'The Elder'

Post by ManOf1000Faces » Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:45 pm

Brilliant album. I recently got my 3rd vinyl copy, the restored 180g.

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Bruce
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Re: Rate 'The Elder'

Post by Bruce » Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:18 pm

The record is wonderfully weird! And serves as a demarcation line between when
the band had gotten bloated & caricaturish and when KISS finally sounded ... amazing!

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Easy Catman
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Re: Rate 'The Elder'

Post by Easy Catman » Sat Feb 16, 2019 5:54 pm

Not the best but certainly the most interesting album in the catalogue 9 out of ten "Dark Lights"

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