KISS treatment of Eric Carr....

[thunder4dayz]

I'm sure this has been discussed, but i'm new to the site, and reconnecting with the band as a whole after being upset that the farewell wasn't really it. What were the situations with Eric and insurance, or G&P's treatment of Eric as a whole. I've seen scattered among other posts here mentioning breifly some terrible things that G&P had done. Would anyone please shed some light on this topic for me. I thought they held him in high regard,m considering all the interviews after his death. what's the truth?

[Robdaddy]

I don't think the truth will ever be known. There's a lot of speculation and BS out there, for sure.

I'd say read all the horrible stuff and all the things that contradict those comments...then find the truth somewhere in the middle, as usual.

[bobrod]

Read the book "The Eric Carr Story." True or not, there are some interesting stories about it.

[Mulder]

Read the book "The Eric Carr Story." True or not, there are some interesting stories about it.

You should save us all some money and post them here.

[bobrod]

Go to a library.

[LoveGun77]

Not everyone has time to comb through every page and every thread. I know I'm not wasting my time doing that. Why do people get attacked when they ask a question that's maybe been discussed?

[RisingForce]

Read the book "The Eric Carr Story." True or not, there are some interesting stories about it.

Indeed. Very good and enlightening book.

[Homer Simpson]

I'm sure this has been discussed, but i'm new to the site, and reconnecting with the band as a whole after being upset that the farewell wasn't really it. What were the situations with Eric and insurance, or G&P's treatment of Eric as a whole. I've seen scattered among other posts here mentioning breifly some terrible things that G&P had done. Would anyone please shed some light on this topic for me. I thought they held him in high regard,m considering all the interviews after his death. what's the truth?

The bottom line is no one here knows the truth (despite what they may claim), but yet will insist on getting in very heated arguements over it.

Personally, this is one of those things were I think it's better to accept the fact we'll never know and move on.

[TheSphinx]

I'm sure this has been discussed, but i'm new to the site, and reconnecting with the band as a whole after being upset that the farewell wasn't really it. What were the situations with Eric and insurance, or G&P's treatment of Eric as a whole. I've seen scattered among other posts here mentioning breifly some terrible things that G&P had done. Would anyone please shed some light on this topic for me. I thought they held him in high regard,m considering all the interviews after his death. what's the truth?

Gene and Paul treated Eric like crap. They respected his drumming but didn't think much of his songwriting etc.

In dealing with them, they pretty much sent Eric to the looney bin and he'd suffer panic and anxiety attacks because of Gene and Paul.

They wouldn't let him sing on albums. They'd take away his drum solo. They wouldn't let him play with Ace.

Also remember, that it was Paul doing more of the tormenting of Eric than Gene. Paul seems to have this problem with anyone who threatens him (and his ego).

The Paul Stanley solo tour--Eric saw the writing on the wall. He's be replaced in KISS one day.

There was a time, I think during the HITS tour, that he didn't talk to Gene and Paul for months.


Eric doing everything he could to show up for the GGR&R2U2 video because he's so afraid he's going to be replaced. It must have been torture on him to be fighting cancer and then being so worried for your job, your healthcare and other things.

Then Paul calling him on the phone and trying to get him to leave the band.

KISS couldn't fire him because then they'd be open to a lawsuit. So they kept pressuring him and pressuring him (supposedly) to leave the band. By doing so, they wouldn't have to pay for his health insurance anymore. And the rates had skyrocketed because of his condition.

Vinnie supposedly left during the recording of Revenge because of how they were treating him.

Gary Corbett just ripped Gene and Paul to shreds. He talks about telling Paul was an asshole he was over the phone. He said he'd never work with them again after that phone call I love when Gary is pointing out how Def Leppard did everything they could to accommodate their drummer and how Gene and Paul do the exact opposite.

At the end, supposedly Eric is asking what bands need a drummer. Is Whitesnake looking for a new one. So sad.

[thunder4dayz]

I'm sure this has been discussed, but i'm new to the site, and reconnecting with the band as a whole after being upset that the farewell wasn't really it. What were the situations with Eric and insurance, or G&P's treatment of Eric as a whole. I've seen scattered among other posts here mentioning breifly some terrible things that G&P had done. Would anyone please shed some light on this topic for me. I thought they held him in high regard,m considering all the interviews after his death. what's the truth?

Gene and Paul treated Eric like crap. They respected his drumming but didn't think much of his songwriting etc.

In dealing with them, they pretty much sent Eric to the looney bin and he'd suffer panic and anxiety attacks because of Gene and Paul.

They wouldn't let him sing on albums. They'd take away his drum solo. They wouldn't let him play with Ace.

Also remember, that it was Paul doing more of the tormenting of Eric than Gene. Paul seems to have this problem with anyone who threatens him (and his ego).

The Paul Stanley solo tour--Eric saw the writing on the wall. He's be replaced in KISS one day.

There was a time, I think during the HITS tour, that he didn't talk to Gene and Paul for months.


Eric doing everything he could to show up for the GGR&R2U2 video because he's so afraid he's going to be replaced. It must have been torture on him to be fighting cancer and then being so worried for your job, your healthcare and other things.

Then Paul calling him on the phone and trying to get him to leave the band.

KISS couldn't fire him because then they'd be open to a lawsuit. So they kept pressuring him and pressuring him (supposedly) to leave the band. By doing so, they wouldn't have to pay for his health insurance anymore. And the rates had skyrocketed because of his condition.

Vinnie supposedly left during the recording of Revenge because of how they were treating him.

Gary Corbett just ripped Gene and Paul to shreds. He talks about telling Paul was an asshole he was over the phone. He said he'd never work with them again after that phone call I love when Gary is pointing out how Def Leppard did everything they could to accommodate their drummer and how Gene and Paul do the exact opposite.

At the end, supposedly Eric is asking what bands need a drummer. Is Whitesnake looking for a new one. So sad.

thanks, i really had no idea any of this went on. I on ly heard gene's interview on x-treme closeup and assumed they were devastated. guess not. wow.

[Going Blind]

Does anybody remember that Howard Stern interview, with Gene and Paul, where Gene threatened to beat up Howard because Howard made fun of a Kiss member that had passed?

Was that member Eric or Mark?

OR did I misconstrue the whole thing because I missed some of the context?

Gene seemed really upset with Howard and he did not seem to be faking it.

[B5Erik]

When I talked with Eric Carr in 1990 he seemed a little bitter and disappointed with how Gene and (especially) Paul treated him. When I joked with him that they should release Little Caesar as a single (to throw off the radio programmers with a different singer) he said that they'd release all 14 of the other songs on HITS as singles before they'd do that. He wasn't Bob Kulick bitter, but he seemed a little frustrated.

He loved the gig overall, but it was clear that he was unhappy with the way that he had been relegated to hired help status when he had so much more to contribute. They never took advantage of what they had right in front of them, and after a while it got to Eric. He didn't want to be the star of the band, but he did want to contribute more than they let him.

[Mike's KISS 1978]

There is more to it than just Gene and Paul wearing the black hat...

[TheSphinx]

Does anybody remember that Howard Stern interview, with Gene and Paul, where Gene threatened to beat up Howard because Howard made fun of a Kiss member that had passed?

Was that member Eric or Mark?

OR did I misconstrue the whole thing because I missed some of the context?

Gene seemed really upset with Howard and he did not seem to be faking it.

It had to do with Gary Corbett calling in the show and asking Gary to get Howard to mention Eric's passing on air.

So Gene hear's about it third hand from people and supposedly gets pissed. He calls up Gary D at Sterns an wants a copy of the show ec.

Gary D calls up GC and tells him about it and Gary says, "He heard everything third-hand from people calling him up. He didn't hear the show." And the way I felt about those guys at that moment, I said to Gary, "They weren't treating him good at the end. And now that it's a public thing, they're trying to make themselves look good, like they gave a shit. So fuck 'em. Don't send them anything. That's what I would say."

So Gary didn't.

Then at the dinner after the funeral, Gene and Paul aren't really welcome at any other table so they set down with Gary. Gene doesn't know Gary called up in the show in the first place. He asks Gary if he had heard the show and what was said.

So Gary tells him

" And what he had said was that Eric had passed away. And he said how long Eric had been in the band and how long the band had been around. He goes, "Man, these guys have been around for so long ... I can't even name one Kiss song." So Fred [Norris] goes inside and comes out with Kiss Alive II I think it was. But that was still Peter. I guess it was a live version of "Beth" they put on. I guess it was actually vinyl—he puts the needle down on the turntable and starts to play "Beth." He plays two seconds of it and goes, "Oh God, that's crap! No wonder the guy got cancer. He had to play that crap every night?" Then he puts the needle down again, listens to a little more of the song, and goes, "Oh my God, what a dirge. They ought to play this song at his funeral. People will be jumping in the box with him."

And Gary says, Gene was trying to hold back from laughing as he was telling him what Howard said on air.

Then Gary goes on Stern a few weeks later and talks about it.

[Anomaly]

Vinnie supposedly left during the recording of Revenge because of how they were treating him.

Left?

[metaldad]

[quote="Robdaddy"]I don't think the truth will ever be known.
quote]
Someday it will, when Paul and Gene are 6ft under and Bruce writes his book

[deleteduser20210208]

At the end, supposedly Eric is asking what bands need a drummer. Is Whitesnake looking for a new one. So sad.

Whitesnake? Wow, that is sad!

Seriously...this will be a 10 pager or locked I suspect.
It's an emotive subject, but one that few know any real facts about.
It's sad he left us. RIP the Fox.

[Homer Simpson]

I'm sure this has been discussed, but i'm new to the site, and reconnecting with the band as a whole after being upset that the farewell wasn't really it. What were the situations with Eric and insurance, or G&P's treatment of Eric as a whole. I've seen scattered among other posts here mentioning breifly some terrible things that G&P had done. Would anyone please shed some light on this topic for me. I thought they held him in high regard,m considering all the interviews after his death. what's the truth?

Gene and Paul treated Eric like crap. They respected his drumming but didn't think much of his songwriting etc.

In dealing with them, they pretty much sent Eric to the looney bin and he'd suffer panic and anxiety attacks because of Gene and Paul.

They wouldn't let him sing on albums. They'd take away his drum solo. They wouldn't let him play with Ace.

Also remember, that it was Paul doing more of the tormenting of Eric than Gene. Paul seems to have this problem with anyone who threatens him (and his ego).

The Paul Stanley solo tour--Eric saw the writing on the wall. He's be replaced in KISS one day.

There was a time, I think during the HITS tour, that he didn't talk to Gene and Paul for months.


Eric doing everything he could to show up for the GGR&R2U2 video because he's so afraid he's going to be replaced. It must have been torture on him to be fighting cancer and then being so worried for your job, your healthcare and other things.

Then Paul calling him on the phone and trying to get him to leave the band.

KISS couldn't fire him because then they'd be open to a lawsuit. So they kept pressuring him and pressuring him (supposedly) to leave the band. By doing so, they wouldn't have to pay for his health insurance anymore. And the rates had skyrocketed because of his condition.

Vinnie supposedly left during the recording of Revenge because of how they were treating him.

Gary Corbett just ripped Gene and Paul to shreds. He talks about telling Paul was an asshole he was over the phone. He said he'd never work with them again after that phone call I love when Gary is pointing out how Def Leppard did everything they could to accommodate their drummer and how Gene and Paul do the exact opposite.

At the end, supposedly Eric is asking what bands need a drummer. Is Whitesnake looking for a new one. So sad.

thanks, i really had no idea any of this went on. I on ly heard gene's interview on x-treme closeup and assumed they were devastated. guess not. wow.

Please don't take to heart. That's a very one-sided view of events from someone who constantly complains about how Vinnie was misreated by mean old Gene and Paul. Most of what he said are rumors that can't be proven and biased speculation.

[Going Blind]

Does anybody remember that Howard Stern interview, with Gene and Paul, where Gene threatened to beat up Howard because Howard made fun of a Kiss member that had passed?

Was that member Eric or Mark?

OR did I misconstrue the whole thing because I missed some of the context?

Gene seemed really upset with Howard and he did not seem to be faking it.

It had to do with Gary Corbett calling in the show and asking Gary to get Howard to mention Eric's passing on air.

So Gene hear's about it third hand from people and supposedly gets pissed. He calls up Gary D at Sterns an wants a copy of the show ec.

Gary D calls up GC and tells him about it and Gary says, "He heard everything third-hand from people calling him up. He didn't hear the show." And the way I felt about those guys at that moment, I said to Gary, "They weren't treating him good at the end. And now that it's a public thing, they're trying to make themselves look good, like they gave a shit. So fuck 'em. Don't send them anything. That's what I would say."

So Gary didn't.

Then at the dinner after the funeral, Gene and Paul aren't really welcome at any other table so they set down with Gary. Gene doesn't know Gary called up in the show in the first place. He asks Gary if he had heard the show and what was said.

So Gary tells him

" And what he had said was that Eric had passed away. And he said how long Eric had been in the band and how long the band had been around. He goes, "Man, these guys have been around for so long ... I can't even name one Kiss song." So Fred [Norris] goes inside and comes out with Kiss Alive II I think it was. But that was still Peter. I guess it was a live version of "Beth" they put on. I guess it was actually vinyl—he puts the needle down on the turntable and starts to play "Beth." He plays two seconds of it and goes, "Oh God, that's crap! No wonder the guy got cancer. He had to play that crap every night?" Then he puts the needle down again, listens to a little more of the song, and goes, "Oh my God, what a dirge. They ought to play this song at his funeral. People will be jumping in the box with him."

And Gary says, Gene was trying to hold back from laughing as he was telling him what Howard said on air.

Then Gary goes on Stern a few weeks later and talks about it.

Thanks for the explanation Sphinx. Much appreciated.

[NS2A]

From my understanding, the "insurance" story was more the promoters wouldn't insure the tour with a drummer who may not be able to finish the tour.

[TheSphinx]

I'm sure this has been discussed, but i'm new to the site, and reconnecting with the band as a whole after being upset that the farewell wasn't really it. What were the situations with Eric and insurance, or G&P's treatment of Eric as a whole. I've seen scattered among other posts here mentioning breifly some terrible things that G&P had done. Would anyone please shed some light on this topic for me. I thought they held him in high regard,m considering all the interviews after his death. what's the truth?

Gene and Paul treated Eric like crap. They respected his drumming but didn't think much of his songwriting etc.

In dealing with them, they pretty much sent Eric to the looney bin and he'd suffer panic and anxiety attacks because of Gene and Paul.

They wouldn't let him sing on albums. They'd take away his drum solo. They wouldn't let him play with Ace.

Also remember, that it was Paul doing more of the tormenting of Eric than Gene. Paul seems to have this problem with anyone who threatens him (and his ego).

The Paul Stanley solo tour--Eric saw the writing on the wall. He's be replaced in KISS one day.

There was a time, I think during the HITS tour, that he didn't talk to Gene and Paul for months.


Eric doing everything he could to show up for the GGR&R2U2 video because he's so afraid he's going to be replaced. It must have been torture on him to be fighting cancer and then being so worried for your job, your healthcare and other things.

Then Paul calling him on the phone and trying to get him to leave the band.

KISS couldn't fire him because then they'd be open to a lawsuit. So they kept pressuring him and pressuring him (supposedly) to leave the band. By doing so, they wouldn't have to pay for his health insurance anymore. And the rates had skyrocketed because of his condition.

Vinnie supposedly left during the recording of Revenge because of how they were treating him.

Gary Corbett just ripped Gene and Paul to shreds. He talks about telling Paul was an asshole he was over the phone. He said he'd never work with them again after that phone call I love when Gary is pointing out how Def Leppard did everything they could to accommodate their drummer and how Gene and Paul do the exact opposite.

At the end, supposedly Eric is asking what bands need a drummer. Is Whitesnake looking for a new one. So sad.

thanks, i really had no idea any of this went on. I on ly heard gene's interview on x-treme closeup and assumed they were devastated. guess not. wow.

Please don't take to heart. That's a very one-sided view of events from someone who constantly complains about how Vinnie was misreated by mean old Gene and Paul. Most of what he said are rumors that can't be proven and biased speculation.

Most of that comes from the "Eric Carr" story....

What's the matter--hard to believe Gene and Paul can be that shitty? It shouldn't be, everyone whose dealt with them has the same problems. Eric Carr, Vinnie, Ace, Peter, Corbett.

And CK Lendt also talked about how bad off Eric was because of dealing with Gene and Paul.

Why don't you read the book and see what Bob Kulick says or Bruce's ex wife?

While Bruce and his wife are sharing a Honda, Paul moves into a 5 story place with an elevator. Always nice of them to spend money like that after they've had Bruce cut his salary in 1/2.

[TheSphinx]

From my understanding, the "insurance" story was more the promoters wouldn't insure the tour with a drummer who may not be able to finish the tour.

Eric could have easily stayed a member without going out on tour.

Also, if Eric did play, it wouldn't matter that much to the insurance brokers. Eric could be replaced and it wouldn't effect the tour one bit. It's wouldn't be like losing Gene or Paul.

Let me edit this by also pointing out... KISS didn't go out on TOUR anywhere near the time of this being talked about. So the "tour insurance" story is most likel more of G&P's b.s.

and not to take away from Eric but he would have been easily replaceable. And its not like this didn't happen before! Remember MSJ and Kulick being out at the same time together???!!! Anyone?!! So just remember..if it comes from G&P....put it past the smell test!!!

[deleteduser20210208]

Also, if Eric did play, it wouldn't matter that much to the insurance brokers. Eric could be replaced and it wouldn't effect the tour one bit. It's wouldn't be like losing Gene or Paul.

Hmmm, not so sure about that. Sure G&P were KISS essentially, but Eric certainly had his fans and followers.

EDIT: Also it should be noted, that it's not so easy to just replace someone mid-tour, it's not inexpensive either.

[TheSphinx]

Also, if Eric did play, it wouldn't matter that much to the insurance brokers. Eric could be replaced and it wouldn't effect the tour one bit. It's wouldn't be like losing Gene or Paul.

Hmmm, not so sure about that. Sure G&P were KISS essentially, but Eric certainly had his fans and followers.

EDIT: Also it should be noted, that it's not so easy to just replace someone mid-tour, it's not inexpensive either.

You either take two out (like on the Animalize tour) or you have one on standbye. But since KISS wasn't touring during any of this...it really didn't matter.

[deleteduser20210208]

At the end, supposedly Eric is asking what bands need a drummer. Is Whitesnake looking for a new one. So sad.

Whitesnake? Wow, that is sad!

Seriously...this will be a 10 pager or locked I suspect.
It's an emotive subject, but one that few know any real facts about.
It's sad he left us. RIP the Fox.

KISS opened for Whitesnake in 1990. Whitesnake were also the bigger band then and the better gig.

Easy tiger, it was a joke. My statement was nothing to do with who was bigger, but I figured you might pick up on that little dig. But it's useful to me to know you are a Whitesnake fan.

[TheSphinx]

Eddie Trunk was the one that told the Whitesnake story in the Eric Carr story:

Eddie Trunk: "I'll tell you this. Eric was completely convinced that if he did get healthy that his place in the band was still very much in jeopardy. For whatever reason. He would call me and ask me, "Hey man, keep your ears open for me. Let me know if you hear of gigs. I heard that Whitesnake may be looking for someone—let me know." And I'd be like, "Eric, are you crazy? Stop worrying about this shit. First is your health, then you're healthy, your gig will be there. There's no way the fans will allow it." He's like, "No, man, I think it's over."

[kinetic74]

At the end, supposedly Eric is asking what bands need a drummer. Is Whitesnake looking for a new one. So sad.

Whitesnake? Wow, that is sad!

Seriously...this will be a 10 pager or locked I suspect.
It's an emotive subject, but one that few know any real facts about.
It's sad he left us. RIP the Fox.

KISS opened for Whitesnake in 1990. Whitesnake were also the bigger band then and the better gig.

Whitesnake. One of the main reasons 80s rock music sucked big time

[deleteduser20210208]

At the end, supposedly Eric is asking what bands need a drummer. Is Whitesnake looking for a new one. So sad.

Whitesnake? Wow, that is sad!

Seriously...this will be a 10 pager or locked I suspect.
It's an emotive subject, but one that few know any real facts about.
It's sad he left us. RIP the Fox.

KISS opened for Whitesnake in 1990. Whitesnake were also the bigger band then and the better gig.

Easy tiger, it was a joke. My statement was nothing to do with who was bigger, but I figured you might pick up on that little dig. But it's useful to me to know you are a Whitesnake fan.

Nobody messes with my whitesnake.

Not even your significant other? Sorry to hear that.

[Homer Simpson]

Most of that comes from the "Eric Carr" story....

Which is one side of the story as I stated.

What's the matter--hard to believe Gene and Paul can be that shitty? It shouldn't be, everyone whose dealt with them has the same problems. Eric Carr, Vinnie, Ace, Peter, Corbett.

I'm not claiming Gene and Paul are saints or even good people. That said, people that have dealt with Vinnie, Ace, Peter, and even Eric Carr have had problems with them.

And CK Lendt also talked about how bad off Eric was because of dealing with Gene and Paul.

He also talked about how Eric was an insecure and overly sensitive person.

Why don't you read the book and see what Bob Kulick says or Bruce's ex wife?

I have. Why don't you realize that you're only accepting one side of the story? A side presented, in many cases, from people who only have a second hand account of what really happened.

While Bruce and his wife are sharing a Honda, Paul moves into a 5 story place with an elevator. Always nice of them to spend money like that after they've had Bruce cut his salary in 1/2.

And what does that have to do with Eric Carr? Besides, they can run their business as they see fit. Likewise, employees can decide whether or not they are being treated unfairly.

Now on to some of your other points....

Gene and Paul treated Eric like crap. They respected his drumming but didn't think much of his songwriting etc.

Listen, I like Eric. I've listened to Rockology. Maybe they could have used a couple of his songs. That said, many of his songs didn't really have a Kiss vibe to them. And if they didn't think much of his songwriting, what were they supposed to do? Record material they didn't like just to please him?

In dealing with them, they pretty much sent Eric to the looney bin and he'd suffer panic and anxiety attacks because of Gene and Paul.

Again, many have said Eric was an insecure and overly sensitive person. It's possible his panic attacks were the result of that. Now maybe Gene and Paul didn't help to relieve his anxieties, but its something he would have to do with any employer. Plus, if things were really as bad as they were made out to seem, why didn't he leave Kiss? If he was treated so bad, wasn't get paid much, and it was not condusive to his health to the point some want to make it out to be, no job is worth that.

They'd take away his drum solo.

Another instance of you only telling half the story. Actually, more like 1/10 of the story. It was the band's manager that suggested the solos be cut on the HITS tour so the band could play more songs. And it wasn't just Eric's solo that was cut. Paul didn't get a guitar solo. Neither did Bruce. Gene didn't get a bass solo. By the end of the tour, Eric got his drum solo back. No one else got their solo back.

They wouldn't let him play with Ace.

How many companies let their employees do freelance work for a former member of the company they have a bad relationship with? None. Not to mention, it would be interesting to see the timeline. Gene and Paul knew Ace was recording Hide Your Heart and weren't very happy about that. That could be another potential reason they didn't want Eric on Ace's album.

The Paul Stanley solo tour--Eric saw the writing on the wall. He's be replaced in KISS one day.

Again, isn't possible this can be traced back to Eric's insecurity?

There was a time, I think during the HITS tour, that he didn't talk to Gene and Paul for months.

He didn't talk to Bruce either. You neglected to mention that. You also neglected to mention that even Bruce said Eric was difficult to deal with around that time. Funny you're so quick to take the word of people who criticize Gene and Paul, but ignore what people say about everyone else.

[TheSphinx]

Whitesnake. One of the main reasons 80s rock music sucked big time

Surely, you are joking! Whitesnake was great! Saw them open for Crue on the "Girls, Girls, Girls" tour and Whitesnake blew them off the stage. Sure you can complain about the "radio edits" but KISS did the same thing.

And they gave us Tawny Kitaen! Sure she didn't age well, but she was hotter than hell back then!

Slide It In is one of the greatest albums of all time! "Whitesnake" was just loaded with hits. "Slip Of The Tongue" was a big step down but it was blew away "Hot In The Shade".

Good To Be Bad and Forevermore sure blows away Sonic Boom and Monster!

[kinetic74]

At the end, supposedly Eric is asking what bands need a drummer. Is Whitesnake looking for a new one. So sad.

Whitesnake? Wow, that is sad!

Seriously...this will be a 10 pager or locked I suspect.
It's an emotive subject, but one that few know any real facts about.
It's sad he left us. RIP the Fox.

KISS opened for Whitesnake in 1990. Whitesnake were also the bigger band then and the better gig.

Whitesnake. One of the main reasons 80s rock music sucked big time

Yes - Slide It In and 1987 were horrible albums, but Asylum and Crazy Nights kicked fucking ass.

Oh, they all suck quite a bit.

[JimiG]

So much speculation from those who weren't there.

[Yellow Shirt]

I'm sure this has been discussed, but i'm new to the site, and reconnecting with the band as a whole after being upset that the farewell wasn't really it. What were the situations with Eric and insurance, or G&P's treatment of Eric as a whole. I've seen scattered among other posts here mentioning breifly some terrible things that G&P had done. Would anyone please shed some light on this topic for me. I thought they held him in high regard,m considering all the interviews after his death. what's the truth?

Gene and Paul treated Eric like crap. They respected his drumming but didn't think much of his songwriting etc.

In dealing with them, they pretty much sent Eric to the looney bin and he'd suffer panic and anxiety attacks because of Gene and Paul.

They wouldn't let him sing on albums. They'd take away his drum solo. They wouldn't let him play with Ace.

Also remember, that it was Paul doing more of the tormenting of Eric than Gene. Paul seems to have this problem with anyone who threatens him (and his ego).

The Paul Stanley solo tour--Eric saw the writing on the wall. He's be replaced in KISS one day.

There was a time, I think during the HITS tour, that he didn't talk to Gene and Paul for months.


Eric doing everything he could to show up for the GGR&R2U2 video because he's so afraid he's going to be replaced. It must have been torture on him to be fighting cancer and then being so worried for your job, your healthcare and other things.

Then Paul calling him on the phone and trying to get him to leave the band.

KISS couldn't fire him because then they'd be open to a lawsuit. So they kept pressuring him and pressuring him (supposedly) to leave the band. By doing so, they wouldn't have to pay for his health insurance anymore. And the rates had skyrocketed because of his condition.

Vinnie supposedly left during the recording of Revenge because of how they were treating him.

Gary Corbett just ripped Gene and Paul to shreds. He talks about telling Paul was an asshole he was over the phone. He said he'd never work with them again after that phone call I love when Gary is pointing out how Def Leppard did everything they could to accommodate their drummer and how Gene and Paul do the exact opposite.

At the end, supposedly Eric is asking what bands need a drummer. Is Whitesnake looking for a new one. So sad.

This makes it sound like Eric was a weak personality. Why couldn't he stand up to G&P?

[Spirited]

So much speculation from those who weren't there.

If that is the standard the board must live by, then you might as well shut it down.

There are lots of stories out there about this, why can it not be speculated on? Because it makes Gene and Paul look bad?

[kinetic74]

At the end, supposedly Eric is asking what bands need a drummer. Is Whitesnake looking for a new one. So sad.

Whitesnake? Wow, that is sad!

Seriously...this will be a 10 pager or locked I suspect.
It's an emotive subject, but one that few know any real facts about.
It's sad he left us. RIP the Fox.

KISS opened for Whitesnake in 1990. Whitesnake were also the bigger band then and the better gig.

Whitesnake. One of the main reasons 80s rock music sucked big time

Yes - Slide It In and 1987 were horrible albums, but Asylum and Crazy Nights kicked fucking ass.

Oh, they all suck quite a bit.

No - the KISS albums do, but Slide It In and 1987 were great hard rock albums in the 80's.

Terrible. Thank god that Nirvana and Pearl Jam came along to make all those awful hair metal bands unemployed.

[Bubba]

Isn't it fair to say that They WANTED Eric in Kiss in the first place (Positive thing) but they only hired him as a drummer? Doesn't Paul have the right to ask him to only do what he was hired for? In all hired gun scenerios which I thought this was, this is pretty common. Not sure about the rest. I was not there. Obviously some of you were.

[Spirited]

Isn't it fair to say that They WANTED Eric in Kiss in the first place (Positive thing) but they only hired him as a drummer? Doesn't Paul have the right to ask him to only do what he was hired for? In all hired gun scenerios which I thought this was, this is pretty common. Not sure about the rest. I was not there. Obviously some of you were.

Where did anyone claim they were there?

Gene and Paul treated him badly. There is enough anecdotal evidence to suggest that. To what extent? That is a good question.

[PelagicJoe]

At the end, supposedly Eric is asking what bands need a drummer. Is Whitesnake looking for a new one. So sad.

Whitesnake? Wow, that is sad!

Seriously...this will be a 10 pager or locked I suspect.
It's an emotive subject, but one that few know any real facts about.
It's sad he left us. RIP the Fox.

KISS opened for Whitesnake in 1990. Whitesnake were also the bigger band then and the better gig.

Whitesnake. One of the main reasons 80s rock music sucked big time

More 80's rock haters.
Still of the Night = good
Smells Like Teen Spirit = bad

Any questions?

[heart_of_chrome]

Vinnie supposedly left during the recording of Revenge because of how they were treating him.

Left?

This guy is nuts. Go ask him how Vinnie's ass smells on the inside...

[KISS_BLOOD]

Eric's sister has said that he was treated badly in the end, and was fired so Kiss would not have to pay the Hospital bills etc.
Supposedly Singer was in the band before Eric's Death.
But I am sure there is a lot to it.Kiss was not doing amazing at the time and I am sure as cold as it may sound they had to think about how they were going to move on.

[kinetic74]

At the end, supposedly Eric is asking what bands need a drummer. Is Whitesnake looking for a new one. So sad.

Whitesnake? Wow, that is sad!

Seriously...this will be a 10 pager or locked I suspect.
It's an emotive subject, but one that few know any real facts about.
It's sad he left us. RIP the Fox.

KISS opened for Whitesnake in 1990. Whitesnake were also the bigger band then and the better gig.

Whitesnake. One of the main reasons 80s rock music sucked big time

More 80's rock haters.
Still of the Night = good
Smells Like Teen Spirit = bad

Any questions?

Yes. plenty.

Still of the night (Generic 80s power ballads)
Smells Like Teen Spirit (iconic album that defined a whole generation - whether you like it or not)

[dogmatic]

I'm sure this has been discussed, but i'm new to the site, and reconnecting with the band as a whole after being upset that the farewell wasn't really it. What were the situations with Eric and insurance, or G&P's treatment of Eric as a whole. I've seen scattered among other posts here mentioning breifly some terrible things that G&P had done. Would anyone please shed some light on this topic for me. I thought they held him in high regard,m considering all the interviews after his death. what's the truth?

Gene and Paul treated Eric like crap. They respected his drumming but didn't think much of his songwriting etc.

In dealing with them, they pretty much sent Eric to the looney bin and he'd suffer panic and anxiety attacks because of Gene and Paul.

They wouldn't let him sing on albums. They'd take away his drum solo. They wouldn't let him play with Ace.

Also remember, that it was Paul doing more of the tormenting of Eric than Gene. Paul seems to have this problem with anyone who threatens him (and his ego).

The Paul Stanley solo tour--Eric saw the writing on the wall. He's be replaced in KISS one day.

There was a time, I think during the HITS tour, that he didn't talk to Gene and Paul for months.


Eric doing everything he could to show up for the GGR&R2U2 video because he's so afraid he's going to be replaced. It must have been torture on him to be fighting cancer and then being so worried for your job, your healthcare and other things.

Then Paul calling him on the phone and trying to get him to leave the band.

KISS couldn't fire him because then they'd be open to a lawsuit. So they kept pressuring him and pressuring him (supposedly) to leave the band. By doing so, they wouldn't have to pay for his health insurance anymore. And the rates had skyrocketed because of his condition.

Vinnie supposedly left during the recording of Revenge because of how they were treating him.

Gary Corbett just ripped Gene and Paul to shreds. He talks about telling Paul was an asshole he was over the phone. He said he'd never work with them again after that phone call I love when Gary is pointing out how Def Leppard did everything they could to accommodate their drummer and how Gene and Paul do the exact opposite.

At the end, supposedly Eric is asking what bands need a drummer. Is Whitesnake looking for a new one. So sad.

This! You nailed it dude.

[Bubba]

Don't we all need to pay our own Hospital bills. I mean don't get me wrong, it is sad as sh*t that Eric got Cancer but Did Kiss really have a lot of money at the time? Would Eric pay Gene's hospital bills if he fell ill? I think not.. That is why we buy insurance. I would think Eric could afford health insurance no? If I fall ill my employer does not pay my bills either. I think they had to find someone to continue on if Eric was not ell enough.. What are they supposed to do? Eric got cancer not Kiss. . Sad reality. I do not get how everyone can blame Gene and Paul for everything all the time. I do understand it is a bad situation and I really liked Eric Carr and his drumming. I do not think his strong point was his voice or writing from recordings I have heard... He was talented no question and seemingly a great person.

[shupey]

In "The Eric Carr Story" Bruce says many times Eric wasn't always easy to deal with or took things too personally. I do beleive he could have been treated better by Gene & Paul. I always think of Jason Newsted replacing Cliff Burton in Metallica. Lars and James treated Jason like shit and he finally got fed up and left. Then you watch "Some Kind Of Monster" an dthye treat Robert with frickin kid gloves. I think that's why you see G&P teating Eric S and Tommy better. Even Gene appearing on Bruce's solo album and Bruce attending some shows backstage shows (i believe) G&P know they fucked up with Eric Carr and maybe trying to make ammends.

[Strutter67]

Most of that comes from the "Eric Carr" story....

Which is one side of the story as I stated.

What's the matter--hard to believe Gene and Paul can be that shitty? It shouldn't be, everyone whose dealt with them has the same problems. Eric Carr, Vinnie, Ace, Peter, Corbett.

I'm not claiming Gene and Paul are saints or even good people. That said, people that have dealt with Vinnie, Ace, Peter, and even Eric Carr have had problems with them.

And CK Lendt also talked about how bad off Eric was because of dealing with Gene and Paul.

He also talked about how Eric was an insecure and overly sensitive person.

Why don't you read the book and see what Bob Kulick says or Bruce's ex wife?

I have. Why don't you realize that you're only accepting one side of the story? A side presented, in many cases, from people who only have a second hand account of what really happened.

While Bruce and his wife are sharing a Honda, Paul moves into a 5 story place with an elevator. Always nice of them to spend money like that after they've had Bruce cut his salary in 1/2.

And what does that have to do with Eric Carr? Besides, they can run their business as they see fit. Likewise, employees can decide whether or not they are being treated unfairly.

Now on to some of your other points....

Gene and Paul treated Eric like crap. They respected his drumming but didn't think much of his songwriting etc.

Listen, I like Eric. I've listened to Rockology. Maybe they could have used a couple of his songs. That said, many of his songs didn't really have a Kiss vibe to them. And if they didn't think much of his songwriting, what were they supposed to do? Record material they didn't like just to please him?

In dealing with them, they pretty much sent Eric to the looney bin and he'd suffer panic and anxiety attacks because of Gene and Paul.

Again, many have said Eric was an insecure and overly sensitive person. It's possible his panic attacks were the result of that. Now maybe Gene and Paul didn't help to relieve his anxieties, but its something he would have to do with any employer. Plus, if things were really as bad as they were made out to seem, why didn't he leave Kiss? If he was treated so bad, wasn't get paid much, and it was not condusive to his health to the point some want to make it out to be, no job is worth that.

They'd take away his drum solo.

Another instance of you only telling half the story. Actually, more like 1/10 of the story. It was the band's manager that suggested the solos be cut on the HITS tour so the band could play more songs. And it wasn't just Eric's solo that was cut. Paul didn't get a guitar solo. Neither did Bruce. Gene didn't get a bass solo. By the end of the tour, Eric got his drum solo back. No one else got their solo back.

They wouldn't let him play with Ace.

How many companies let their employees do freelance work for a former member of the company they have a bad relationship with? None. Not to mention, it would be interesting to see the timeline. Gene and Paul knew Ace was recording Hide Your Heart and weren't very happy about that. That could be another potential reason they didn't want Eric on Ace's album.

The Paul Stanley solo tour--Eric saw the writing on the wall. He's be replaced in KISS one day.

Again, isn't possible this can be traced back to Eric's insecurity?

There was a time, I think during the HITS tour, that he didn't talk to Gene and Paul for months.

He didn't talk to Bruce either. You neglected to mention that. You also neglected to mention that even Bruce said Eric was difficult to deal with around that time. Funny you're so quick to take the word of people who criticize Gene and Paul, but ignore what people say about everyone else.

Wow very interesting. I think you're spot on. Also don't forget there are stories from the hated Paul and Gene where they asked Eric to come with them to the after-show party and he declined. They said he would go lay in the bathtub. Also maybe there was something there between Eric and Bruce because Bruce also made a comment on X-treme Close-Up about how much he liked Singer and how they connected immediately. "He knew all my guitar parts, air guitar parts of course. I love that about him" and yes Carr had some insecurity issues. That's why he was so reclusive. And i have NEVER heard Paul or Gene say one bad thing about Carr, ever. Maybe they could have treated him better but seems far fetched that they treated him like shit. I get their egos were fucked up in the 80's and they were desperate to keep Kiss going. But all this is just hard to imagine being true.

[steveh67]

At the end, supposedly Eric is asking what bands need a drummer. Is Whitesnake looking for a new one. So sad.

Whitesnake? Wow, that is sad!

Seriously...this will be a 10 pager or locked I suspect.
It's an emotive subject, but one that few know any real facts about.
It's sad he left us. RIP the Fox.

KISS opened for Whitesnake in 1990. Whitesnake were also the bigger band then and the better gig.

Easy tiger, it was a joke. My statement was nothing to do with who was bigger, but I figured you might pick up on that little dig. But it's useful to me to know you are a Whitesnake fan.

Whitesnake are great band, even their current albums are damn good...Certainly better listening than Monster or Sonic Boom :mrgreen:

You stick to YOUR bands like Warrant, Dangerous Toys and Britney Fox eh

[heart_of_chrome]

Most of that comes from the "Eric Carr" story....

Which is one side of the story as I stated.

What's the matter--hard to believe Gene and Paul can be that shitty? It shouldn't be, everyone whose dealt with them has the same problems. Eric Carr, Vinnie, Ace, Peter, Corbett.

I'm not claiming Gene and Paul are saints or even good people. That said, people that have dealt with Vinnie, Ace, Peter, and even Eric Carr have had problems with them.

And CK Lendt also talked about how bad off Eric was because of dealing with Gene and Paul.

He also talked about how Eric was an insecure and overly sensitive person.

Why don't you read the book and see what Bob Kulick says or Bruce's ex wife?

I have. Why don't you realize that you're only accepting one side of the story? A side presented, in many cases, from people who only have a second hand account of what really happened.

While Bruce and his wife are sharing a Honda, Paul moves into a 5 story place with an elevator. Always nice of them to spend money like that after they've had Bruce cut his salary in 1/2.

And what does that have to do with Eric Carr? Besides, they can run their business as they see fit. Likewise, employees can decide whether or not they are being treated unfairly.

Now on to some of your other points....

Gene and Paul treated Eric like crap. They respected his drumming but didn't think much of his songwriting etc.

Listen, I like Eric. I've listened to Rockology. Maybe they could have used a couple of his songs. That said, many of his songs didn't really have a Kiss vibe to them. And if they didn't think much of his songwriting, what were they supposed to do? Record material they didn't like just to please him?

In dealing with them, they pretty much sent Eric to the looney bin and he'd suffer panic and anxiety attacks because of Gene and Paul.

Again, many have said Eric was an insecure and overly sensitive person. It's possible his panic attacks were the result of that. Now maybe Gene and Paul didn't help to relieve his anxieties, but its something he would have to do with any employer. Plus, if things were really as bad as they were made out to seem, why didn't he leave Kiss? If he was treated so bad, wasn't get paid much, and it was not condusive to his health to the point some want to make it out to be, no job is worth that.

They'd take away his drum solo.

Another instance of you only telling half the story. Actually, more like 1/10 of the story. It was the band's manager that suggested the solos be cut on the HITS tour so the band could play more songs. And it wasn't just Eric's solo that was cut. Paul didn't get a guitar solo. Neither did Bruce. Gene didn't get a bass solo. By the end of the tour, Eric got his drum solo back. No one else got their solo back.

They wouldn't let him play with Ace.

How many companies let their employees do freelance work for a former member of the company they have a bad relationship with? None. Not to mention, it would be interesting to see the timeline. Gene and Paul knew Ace was recording Hide Your Heart and weren't very happy about that. That could be another potential reason they didn't want Eric on Ace's album.

The Paul Stanley solo tour--Eric saw the writing on the wall. He's be replaced in KISS one day.

Again, isn't possible this can be traced back to Eric's insecurity?

There was a time, I think during the HITS tour, that he didn't talk to Gene and Paul for months.

He didn't talk to Bruce either. You neglected to mention that. You also neglected to mention that even Bruce said Eric was difficult to deal with around that time. Funny you're so quick to take the word of people who criticize Gene and Paul, but ignore what people say about everyone else.

Wow very interesting. I think you're spot on. Also don't forget there are stories from the hated Paul and Gene where they asked Eric to come with them to the after-show party and he declined. They said he would go lay in the bathtub. Also maybe there was something there between Eric and Bruce because Bruce also made a comment on X-treme Close-Up about how much he liked Singer and how they connected immediately. "He knew all my guitar parts, air guitar parts of course. I love that about him" and yes Carr had some insecurity issues. That's why he was so reclusive. And i have NEVER heard Paul or Gene say one bad thing about Carr, ever. Maybe they could have treated him better but seems far fetched that they treated him like shit. I get their egos were fucked up in the 80's and they were desperate to keep Kiss going. But all this is just hard to imagine being true.

Great posts. Add to that the fact that on Kissology II, Paul says that in retrospect, there are things that they should and would have done different if they knew any better. I guess it was a really difficult position for Gene and Paul as well. On the one hand, they had to keep the band going but on the other it made them look like they didn't even care about Eric. No matter how you proceed in this matter, you are not coming out of it as a nice guy.

[deleteduser20210208]

At the end, supposedly Eric is asking what bands need a drummer. Is Whitesnake looking for a new one. So sad.

Whitesnake? Wow, that is sad!

Seriously...this will be a 10 pager or locked I suspect.
It's an emotive subject, but one that few know any real facts about.
It's sad he left us. RIP the Fox.

KISS opened for Whitesnake in 1990. Whitesnake were also the bigger band then and the better gig.

Easy tiger, it was a joke. My statement was nothing to do with who was bigger, but I figured you might pick up on that little dig. But it's useful to me to know you are a Whitesnake fan.

Whitesnake are great band, even their current albums are damn good...Certainly better listening than Monster or Sonic Boom :mrgreen:

You stick to YOUR bands like Warrant, Dangerous Toys and Britney Fox eh

What the hell? If you only knew some of the stuff in my collection...Hey Man would have field day bagging out my music taste, but there certainly is no Warrant, Dangerous Toys (can't believe there's actually a band called that) and Britney Fox sir and proudly.
For the record, I have no issue with people liking Whitesnake, but I think they are absolute rubbish...see how that works?

Now, back to the regularly scheduled topic.

[steveh67]

Most of that comes from the "Eric Carr" story....

Which is one side of the story as I stated.

What's the matter--hard to believe Gene and Paul can be that shitty? It shouldn't be, everyone whose dealt with them has the same problems. Eric Carr, Vinnie, Ace, Peter, Corbett.

I'm not claiming Gene and Paul are saints or even good people. That said, people that have dealt with Vinnie, Ace, Peter, and even Eric Carr have had problems with them.

And CK Lendt also talked about how bad off Eric was because of dealing with Gene and Paul.

He also talked about how Eric was an insecure and overly sensitive person.

Why don't you read the book and see what Bob Kulick says or Bruce's ex wife?

I have. Why don't you realize that you're only accepting one side of the story? A side presented, in many cases, from people who only have a second hand account of what really happened.

While Bruce and his wife are sharing a Honda, Paul moves into a 5 story place with an elevator. Always nice of them to spend money like that after they've had Bruce cut his salary in 1/2.

And what does that have to do with Eric Carr? Besides, they can run their business as they see fit. Likewise, employees can decide whether or not they are being treated unfairly.

Now on to some of your other points....

Gene and Paul treated Eric like crap. They respected his drumming but didn't think much of his songwriting etc.

Listen, I like Eric. I've listened to Rockology. Maybe they could have used a couple of his songs. That said, many of his songs didn't really have a Kiss vibe to them. And if they didn't think much of his songwriting, what were they supposed to do? Record material they didn't like just to please him?

In dealing with them, they pretty much sent Eric to the looney bin and he'd suffer panic and anxiety attacks because of Gene and Paul.

Again, many have said Eric was an insecure and overly sensitive person. It's possible his panic attacks were the result of that. Now maybe Gene and Paul didn't help to relieve his anxieties, but its something he would have to do with any employer. Plus, if things were really as bad as they were made out to seem, why didn't he leave Kiss? If he was treated so bad, wasn't get paid much, and it was not condusive to his health to the point some want to make it out to be, no job is worth that.

They'd take away his drum solo.

Another instance of you only telling half the story. Actually, more like 1/10 of the story. It was the band's manager that suggested the solos be cut on the HITS tour so the band could play more songs. And it wasn't just Eric's solo that was cut. Paul didn't get a guitar solo. Neither did Bruce. Gene didn't get a bass solo. By the end of the tour, Eric got his drum solo back. No one else got their solo back.

They wouldn't let him play with Ace.

How many companies let their employees do freelance work for a former member of the company they have a bad relationship with? None. Not to mention, it would be interesting to see the timeline. Gene and Paul knew Ace was recording Hide Your Heart and weren't very happy about that. That could be another potential reason they didn't want Eric on Ace's album.

The Paul Stanley solo tour--Eric saw the writing on the wall. He's be replaced in KISS one day.

Again, isn't possible this can be traced back to Eric's insecurity?

There was a time, I think during the HITS tour, that he didn't talk to Gene and Paul for months.

He didn't talk to Bruce either. You neglected to mention that. You also neglected to mention that even Bruce said Eric was difficult to deal with around that time. Funny you're so quick to take the word of people who criticize Gene and Paul, but ignore what people say about everyone else.

Wow very interesting. I think you're spot on. Also don't forget there are stories from the hated Paul and Gene where they asked Eric to come with them to the after-show party and he declined. They said he would go lay in the bathtub. Also maybe there was something there between Eric and Bruce because Bruce also made a comment on X-treme Close-Up about how much he liked Singer and how they connected immediately. "He knew all my guitar parts, air guitar parts of course. I love that about him" and yes Carr had some insecurity issues. That's why he was so reclusive. And i have NEVER heard Paul or Gene say one bad thing about Carr, ever. Maybe they could have treated him better but seems far fetched that they treated him like shit. I get their egos were fucked up in the 80's and they were desperate to keep Kiss going. But all this is just hard to imagine being true.

Bruce loved EC like his brother, you are soo far off there.

Remember the song he wrote with union or the song on his early solo album.

Rockheads cd release was contributed to BK working with EC's family also.

[Spirited]

Don't we all need to pay our own Hospital bills. I mean don't get me wrong, it is sad as sh*t that Eric got Cancer but Did Kiss really have a lot of money at the time? Would Eric pay Gene's hospital bills if he fell ill? I think not.. That is why we buy insurance. I would think Eric could afford health insurance no? If I fall ill my employer does not pay my bills either. I think they had to find someone to continue on if Eric was not ell enough.. What are they supposed to do? Eric got cancer not Kiss. . Sad reality. I do not get how everyone can blame Gene and Paul for everything all the time. I do understand it is a bad situation and I really liked Eric Carr and his drumming. I do not think his strong point was his voice or writing from recordings I have heard... He was talented no question and seemingly a great person.

Gene didn't work for Eric, Eric worked for Gene.