1970s Party, Casablanca Style: Larry Harris Int. P2

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1970s Party, Casablanca Style: Part Two
Larry Harris: The KissFAQ Interview

The conclusion of KissFAQ's interview with Larry Harris, author of And Party Every Day: The Inside Story Of Casablanca Records.



KissFAQ: How dead on was Neil’s postscript of Casablanca as being a “profitless prosperity”? What ultimately did the label in, and did the excess really outweigh the success?

Larry Harris: What killed Casablanca was that a couple of guys who started a record label — although Neil had a lot more experience than I did — never thought the ride was going to end. It got to the point where we were so successful, we had more gold and platinum albums than Warner Bros., Columbia and Capitol put together.

The thing that broke our back was the four KISS solo albums. I mean keep in mind, we were also riding high with the movies with Midnight Express, which won an Academy Award. We were doing really well but losing that much money on those four albums at one time...Polygram cracked down on us. They owned half the company and they distributed our product. And then disco started to fail. The Village People stopped selling. And they did the world’s worst disco movie ever, Can’t Stop The Music, what a piece of crap (laughs). And that hurt them drastically. We had hit our high I think. We had already come out with Robin Williams’ album, which was great. It sold a couple million copies. But we were starting to go down hill.

KF: What about Robin Williams and Casablanca?

LH: Robin was brilliant. In the book I talk about how I saw “Mork & Mindy” on TV one night and called Robin’s manager, who was an old friend of mine, and made a deal with him on the phone.

But Robin, like if I would go see Robin perform...he was so afraid. It was like a bird with a cat next to him. He was always paranoid, he was doing a lot of blow at the time. He and John Belushi were very close and they did a lot of drugs together.

KF: And we know what happened to Belushi.

LH: It could have almost happened to Robin, I guess. You know, I’ve worked with a lot of comedians, and he was one of the most brilliant comedians.

Here’s another funny story about Rodney Dangerfield. Rodney was out with one of my friends at an airport and Rodney opens a jar of Noxzema and does a couple hits of blow and closes the jar. And my friend says, “Rodney, you can’t take that on the plane with us.” And Rodney looks at him, “They can’t arrest me, I’m Rodney Dangerfield.” (laughs)

KF: Looking back at the Casablanca roster, which act that seemed to have the best opportunity were you most disappointed never made it?

LH: The Hudson Brothers. They had a TV show [“The Hudson Brothers Razzle Dazzle Show”] in the ‘70s and that’s what killed them. They were very talented. In fact, Mark Hudson today writes for Aerosmith, I mean he’s huge when it comes to being a composer. The Hudson Brothers were great, they were fun and they were really good musicians.

The problem was when they were 20 years old, the guy who was producing “The Sonny & Cher Show,” which was like the biggest show on television, came to them and said, “I want to do a TV show with you guys.” And how do you say no?

And the TV show put them in this teeny-bopper bag that they could never get out of.

KF: What act were you most surprised made it?

LH: (Pauses) I know this is a KISS site. Not that I am surprised that KISS had some success, but I am surprised that they are still successful.

KF: Is it hard to believe that 35 years later, the KISS machine still rolls on?

LH: I am real surprised. I mean, how many bands have lasted this long? What, the Rolling Stones, you can name them on one hand...maybe the Eagles?

KF: Aerosmith, AC/DC.

LH: It’s a handful of bands who have lasted this long that can do what they are doing — play arenas and sell them out. And a lot of it has to do with luck.

But I think a lot of it has to do with the early years and Gene Simmons being in the corner listening to us doing the business “stuff.” We would be doing the planning, the marketing, the promotion, and advertising. Gene, he would absorb it all. And I think he absorbed it between listening to Neil, Bill Aucoin, Howard Marks and Carl Glickman, who were both brilliant when it came to money.

The reason Marks and Glickman came in was because, although KISS was selling out arenas and stuff, they were losing money. And as good a manager as Bill was, he wasn’t good at figuring out how to “make it pay.” So they brought Marks and Glickman in and and the first thing Glickman did was put each guy on an allowance and until they each had $10 million in the bank he wouldn’t let them get off the allowance. So he was really watching out for them.

But again, a lot of it is Gene absorbed everything these really smart guys were doing and he used it later.



KF: Speaking of KISS, how about some KISS-related questions?

LH: Sure. I was going to speak to Ace about performing somewhere but I’ll do that later. Go ahead (laughs).

KF: Could a group like KISS have the same impact if they were just starting out today in the age of the Internet, paparazzi and digital downloading?

LH: No, I don’t think they would be outrageous enough today.

KF: In the book you acknowledge how, for the time, KISS was outrageous and something no one had seen before.

LH: Right. Now you have people putting spikes through their bodies and doing all sorts of things (laughs).

KISS was outrageous. But so was Parliament Funkadelic. Parliament for the urban market were as outrageous, if not more outrageous-looking. They wore diapers onstage. They had a spaceship [the Mothership] that was like 400 feet in diameter. I mean they were pretty outrageous too and they did great.

But I don’t think these days, with everything people have seen and the access people have to the Internet, which gives people so much more. I mean when KISS came out, we had, what, maybe four or five TV stations in major cities? I have 150 on my satellite dish (laughs). Things have changed so much.

Would they be successful? I don’t know. Radio wouldn’t be there to really help them because radio has fallen apart basically. MTV isn’t there, they don’t play videos to speak of anymore. Where would they have gotten the exposure? Where would it have been able to spread?

KF: And the mystique aspect? With the paparazzi these days, they’d kill the mystique immediately.

LH: Oh yes, there would be no mystique. Nobody saw their faces for years. Although we do talk in the book about how Creem magazine snapped a shot of them without the makeup.

But you’re right. The paparazzi would catch them somewhere.

KF: After you first saw KISS perform at the Henry LeTang School of Dance in 1973, were you convinced they would be superstars?

LH: Superstars? I didn’t know about superstars. At that point and time, I was just doing promotion and my job wasn’t to critique the acts we were coming out with. My job was to get them marketed and played. So, as far as I was concerned, whether it was KISS — or it didn’t matter who it was — my job was to get it played.

LeTang wasn’t much of an audience, there were only like 5 people there. But once I saw the reaction from an audience, I knew they’d be big.

KF: Straight question: If KISS drops the makeup as Warner Bros. requested in early 1974, do they still become as successful?

LH: No. Not at all. It was part of the whole thing. It couldn’t be separated.

KF: Fans like to talk about this hypothetical because we all love the music. But KISS’ success was the result of the entire package, including the makeup.

LH: It was part of the package. It was part of the show. It’s what got people interested. Although people hated the makeup, it’s what got people interested. And once they saw them, they never forgot them.



KF: The production team of Kenny Kerner and Richie Wise was fired prior to Dressed To Kill, an album ultimately produced by Neil Bogart. Could Neil have been a successful record producer if he decided to go down that road?

LH: Yes. Neil also produced the Robin Williams album [Reality...What A Concept], which was a huge record. He picked a lot of Donna Summer’s songs, and he would take finished songs and pick them apart and say, “No, the bridge should be here and the chorus should be there.” He’d change them around and they would become hit records. Neil could definitely have been a big producer.

KF: Of course, not many are aware of Neil's career as an artist. Can you shed any light on material such as "March The Sixth" and "The Theory of Love," and the so-called Neil “Bobby” Scott’s Greatest Hits LP?

LH: Well, it was Neil Scott. “Bobby” was his hit song. Yes, I talk in the book about the first time I heard the song “Bobby.” Neil was probably 16, so I was 12 or something. And it was also the first time I met Neil. But I played that record to death because I knew somebody who was actually a relative who put out a record. I never met anybody who put out a record before.

KF: The print media was crucial to KISS' success in the 1970s and you detail how you cultivated those relationships and how you got positive coverage from magazines. On that note, nothing really materialized with KISS in terms of Rolling Stone magazine. There always seemed to be an unfavorable relationship between the band and the publication with poor album reviews and hardly any positive coverage.

Turns out in the book we find Neil Bogart did not get along with Jann Wenner. Is this a coincidence?

LH: I don’t know if it’s coincidence, but Rolling Stone NEVER covered any of our artists. Even the ones who were “Rolling Stone-respectable” artists like Steve Goodman, who we had at Buddah Records.

Neil and Jann didn’t like each other. I don’t know why. I never asked Neil, “How come you guys hate each other?” It just didn’t come up in conversation. If Neil didn’t like him, I didn’t like him.

You know, Rolling Stone was out of San Francisco. And we always had trouble in San Francisco. KISS could not get arrested until much later in their career. Bill Graham, who controlled San Francisco in those days, didn’t like them. And he would never book KISS. We tried and tried.

KSAN radio — the big FM station in San Francisco — as good as I was with the AOR rock radio stations, I could never get KSAN to play KISS. I had to surround them with San Jose and other markets to get anything going there. San Francisco, in general, was really tough for us. And maybe because Rolling Stone liked the Grateful Dead and Jefferson Airplane...it was kind of like they looked down on KISS.

KF: You know, they are still not in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

LH: Yes, and they are nominated this year. But look at all the bands that have made it in that shouldn’t have before them. I mean they should have been in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame 10 years ago.

But I did speak to a friend of mine recently, who I won’t tell you his name, but he is on the board of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. And he tells me there is no way KISS isn’t going to make it in this year.

KF: The fan community has been debating whether or not they’ll get in.

LH: This guy says there is no way it’s NOT going to happen. He says it would be a “major embarrassment” for the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame this year for it not to happen. And you’re the first person I’ve told this to.

KF: Very cool. Of course, the interesting thing is that the band has been more or less indifferent about it in recent years. But I think deep down Paul and Gene want this honor.

LH: Oh, of course, they want it. They’ve been indifferent about it because they didn’t want it to seem like it was a slap in their face. It’s just like anything else. You watch an awards show and an artist doesn’t win a GRAMMY or an Oscar and they go, “Well, it’s okay.” But deep down inside, they’re going, “Motherf***er” (laughs).

KF: “Beth” is a controversial song in the KISS world. Some band members love it, some don't. Some fans love it, some don’t. Did “Beth” save KISS in 1976?

LH: No. I don’t think it saved KISS. They were selling millions of records before “Beth” came out.

But what I think it did was open KISS up to a whole other market that never heard them. I was actually at the local Wal-Mart yesterday for the new KISS album release. And there was a guy who was 40 years old who had a hand full of KISS CDs. And I said, “You’re a big KISS fan?” And he’s like, “Yes, I am huge fan. I am replacing all my old ones that got ruined. But I couldn’t find Alive!” And he was telling me his least-favorite KISS song of all-time is “Beth.”

KF: Which of the makeup-era Top 10 singles would you say had a bigger impact for KISS: ”Beth” or “I Was Made For Lovin’ You”?

LH: I think “Beth” had the bigger impact because it shocked everybody. “I Was Made For Lovin’ You,” that’s the one that people say, “They went disco.” I mean I like the song a lot personally, but I think for their fan base it hurt them. Where “Beth,” I don’t think really hurt them. I think it brought women into KISS. Where it was mostly young guys, but I think women started feeling a whole different thing for this group because of “Beth.”

KF: Neil Bogart didn't like “Beth” because of the name, what was his reaction once it took off?

LH: He didn’t like the song because he had just gotten divorced from his first wife Beth. And he thought the band was making fun of him in light of his divorce. In front of everybody the first day we heard [Destroyer], he actually said, “This song will never get on radio, I’m going to bury it and put it on the B-side of ‘Detroit Rock City’’s 45.”

But Neil, if nothing else, was pragmatic and it was a big hit record and he loved it because it was that.



KF: The fans love these albums, but what was the ultimate effect of the KISS solo albums on Casablanca?

LH: The four KISS solo albums, from day one, I knew were going to f*** up the company. Because I was the one who had to do all the sales projections. We really didn’t want to put out those albums. But we had no choice. It was Howard Marks and Bill Aucoin coming in and saying, “Look the band is going to break up and the only way we think we can keep them together for now is to have each of them do a solo album.”

And we said, “Each of them do a solo album? Well, that’s a half-million dollars an album to record each one!” And the contract called for a half-million dollars for each album to advertise, so there’s $1 million there for each album. That doesn’t include the pressing costs, that doesn’t include the promotion. So you’re talking about a $1.5 million, $2 million for each album by the time we were done. Maybe more actually with the pressing costs, because it cost a little over a dollar each to press them.

But rather than the group break up, we talked ourselves into believing — well Neil did — that this was going to be a good thing. Because that’s what he was — he was always positive and didn’t want to ever hear anything negative. So not only did he talk himself into believing this was going to be good, but he decided that he was going to be so behind it that he was going to spend MORE than the half-million dollars per album for advertising that we were contracted to spend.

And the only one that became a hit was Ace’s album.

KF: In hindsight, it’s hard to fathom that they weren’t a huge success as the band was at the height of their popularity in 1978?

LH: I just think the fans went, “What the f***? They’re doing solo albums??” I don’t think the fans, as much as they loved them, were ready for it. And also, some of the albums didn’t sound like KISS!

KF: You really never address it in the book, but did Casablanca ever see a dime from the KISS merchandising operation?

LH: No, but I did get a free pinball machine! Neil got one, and [vice president of promotion] Bruce Bird got one — the three of us. And it was a very nice gift and we were all thrilled with it.

KF: Do you still have it?

LH: No I don’t (laughs). I sold it years ago. I used it so much, it was pretty worn out. I used to get unbelievable scores on it. I’d play that, three or four hours a day. I’d be playing it in the middle of the night and my wife would be yelling at me. I had a good time with it but I moved into a smaller house years later and there was really no room for it.

But we never saw any money from the merchandising. And a lot of the ideas were ours, in the initial days. We never saw any money from their gigs either, and yet we payed for all their early gigs. You know in this day and age, what’s happening now with Live Nation where money from record sales and gigs and merchandise are all combined I think is a much better idea. But still the record companies these days aren’t spending the money they should. They pay $200,000 to $300,000 to do a record, and they’ll spend $20,000 trying to market it and give up. That wasn’t us.

KF: You talk about some interesting encounters with Bill Warlow and Billboard magazine throughout the book. Which KISS albums did you “fix” on the charts?

LH: Every one of them.

KF: Come on. Even Love Gun, which reached No. 4?

LH: In the very beginning, the first couple of albums, I didn’t have the clout over at Billboard. But once I got that in and had the power, I got the old albums put on the chart as selling really well as catalog. At one point, I think there were four KISS albums on the Top 100. And no group, except maybe the Beatles, had done that. Sorry to say, all of the ones while I was at Casablanca.

KF: And what about the singles? Same thing with singles?

LH: Absolutely.

KF: What about a song like “Hard Luck Woman,” which was a Top 40 hit?

LH: It was probably really a Top 70 hit, but we made it a Top 40 hit.

KF: I am going to name the original KISS members. Give me the first thing that pops into your head. Paul Stanley?

LH: Very reserved.

KF: Gene Simmons?

LH: Sneaky, but I also need to say not loyal.

KF: Interesting. Can you elaborate? Are you talking about Gene’s ego, and him seemingly always looking out for his own interests?

LH: I think it’s both. I asked Gene to do the foreword for the book and he said he would. He said, “Send me a couple of drafts.” And I did.

And then I later tried to get a hold of him and said I need to know about the foreword because of the publisher. And he said, “Oh, my publisher said I couldn’t do it.” And I thought to myself, “That is such bulls***.” It’s a foreword, you’re talking about a page or two. It’s not like you’re writing the book with me. And I just felt with everything I did for them, and I did it for myself too, I am not saying I didn’t benefit by it. But I put my heart and soul into them, and they knew it.

And every disc jockey who was alive in those days that knows what happened, they will tell you that without Casablanca KISS wouldn’t have happened. If it was another record company, they would have been dropped after the first two records.

You know, he could have done a foreword for me. It would have cost him what, maybe a half-hour?

KF: Ace Frehley?

LH: Fun to be around.

KF: You know Ace recently released a new album and he’s three years sober, which is great for him.

LH: Absolutely. I looked at Amazon and it was No. 1 on their rock chart.

KF: Peter Criss?

LH: I liked Peter a lot. But I would have to describe him as most of the time...he seemed confused.

KF: When was the last time you listened to a KISS album? And what are some of your favorite songs?

LH: I listen to KISS all the time. I love a lot of it. “Strutter,” “Deuce” — I lived with this stuff constantly. I still like “Beth.” I love “Rock And Roll All Nite” — obviously I named the book after it.

KF: Through all the years, the 289 albums and more than 140 artists, what is the Casablanca Records legacy?

LF: Well, Casablanca lasted, as far as I am concerned, from 1974-1980. After that, it was Polygram. I wasn’t there, nobody who started the company was there.

The legacy seems to be that everybody who works in the music business today says, “I wish I was there then.”

Then, the music business was fun, it was creative. It was shoot from the hip. It was exciting. There were entrepreneurs. Now it’s lawyers, it’s accountants. It’s always the bottom line. Even if a record is starting to break, if the guy on top says, “No you can’t spend any more money on it,” you can’t spend any more money on it.

And everything you do, you have to get approval. They are too afraid to sign a band and make a mistake, than sign a band and take a chance on somebody who might be big.

KF: Gongs, drugs, sex, Mercedes-Benzes for the employees, lavish expense accounts, setting furniture on fire, the mafia — the Casablanca story would make a great motion picture, would it not?

LH: There’s a really good chance. I am starting to get some feels out in Hollywood about a movie. There are a few things happening on that front.

KF: What would Neil Bogart think of KISS partnering with Wal-Mart for an exclusive album in 2009? Something tells me he'd be all for it.

LH: Absolutely, he would have loved it. We would have pulled our pants down to be in Wal-Mart as an exclusive...literally (laughs).



Order your copy of this must-have book for the KISS library today! For more information on the book, visit the following sites:

Casablancabook.com (all copies ordered here are signed by Larry Harris)
YouTube (featuring tons of old Casablanca promo films and TV clips)
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Read Part One